2019-2020 Open Thread

[skyblade]

Brannen recruited these guys. If he didn’t think he could get them to play good enough D he wouldn’t have offered. Effort won’t be a problem. There are also some techniques that can be addressed fairly easily.. Gabe will be fine

In the long run, yes. But I am talking about as a freshman. We've seen plenty of freshmen get limited minutes because of defensive mistakes: Harvey and Davenport just last year, Keith Williams sat behind Moore as a freshman.

Brannen has talked about how bench guys get less slack from him in terms of making mistakes. It takes time to learn to play defense and give effort on every play when you aren't used to it. I like Gabe's potential, but I don't expect much from him as a freshman.

 

[cincrulz11]

MAW I think will be okay as an SG. I think it's his more natural position anyway and he has a good stroke from three. I imagine him and Harvey will get the bulk of the minutes.

MAW isn't an off-ball player. Reminds me of when everybody said Caupain had to be off the ball.


MAW struggled a great deal when Cumberland took over the point. Not sure he's really a pure shooter and he doesn't really have a slashers game either.


MAWs PT is likely to come because of what he does on the other end of the court.

 

[skyblade]

MAW isn't an off-ball player. Reminds me of when everybody said Caupain had to be off the ball.


MAW struggled a great deal when Cumberland took over the point. Not sure he's really a pure shooter and he doesn't really have a slashers game either.


MAWs PT is likely to come because of what he does on the other end of the court.

Somebody is going to have to play off-ball (or transfer). MAW led the team in three-point percentage (37.3%) - excluding Diarra's 5 of 7. He also played off ball as a senior in HS.

I think his shot looks good, not sure how much of a slasher he will be. Assuming DeJulius gets a waiver and starts at PG, MAW is going to have to play at least some time at SG.

I'm also not convinced MAW's slump was because of Cumberland playing PG. Mid-season slumps are plenty common for freshmen who don't change position.

We can afford to have some three-and-D guys. MAW seems like he could be one of them.

 

[cincrulz11]

Somebody is going to have to play off-ball (or transfer). MAW led the team in three-point percentage (37.3%) - excluding Diarra's 5 of 7. He also played off ball as a senior in HS.

I think his shot looks good, not sure how much of a slasher he will be. Assuming DeJulius gets a waiver and starts at PG, MAW is going to have to play at least some time at SG.

I'm also not convinced MAW's slump was because of Cumberland playing PG. Mid-season slumps are plenty common for freshmen who don't change position.

We can afford to have some three-and-D guys. MAW seems like he could be one of them.

He's going to have his role, but as far as what he's going to bring to the offense, MAW has to be near the bottom of the list. He's not a pure shooter, he's not a driver, he didn't distribute well. I think his game is a watered down version of Troy's. He's a guy that will get you into the right play,and the ball will go where its supposed to go. There is value in that. I think his game could really flourish in the style we used to play.


I think Brannen is looking for something a bit more dynamic. At PG he clearly wants guys that will fly up the court off misses. Wings he wants a bit more size and more athleticism. MAW was a nice late pick up and is going to be a nice contributor his entire career. Probably won't ever be one of the go to guys though. And there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[waterhead]

MAW isn't an off-ball player. Reminds me of when everybody said Caupain had to be off the ball.


MAW struggled a great deal when Cumberland took over the point. Not sure he's really a pure shooter and he doesn't really have a slashers game either.


MAWs PT is likely to come because of what he does on the other end of the court.

I expect the offense to run much different with Cumberland out of it. Even if MAW is not “pg”...he should still get chances to be top of key and work downhill where he was very effective finishing around the rim on his left side. I expect with DDs speed and effectiveness in transition he will be the preferred outlet but once they get in half court sets it will become interchangeable and the guards will work through their rotations.

That’s a lot different than running ISO’s for one player

 

[waterhead]

In the long run, yes. But I am talking about as a freshman. We've seen plenty of freshmen get limited minutes because of defensive mistakes: Harvey and Davenport just last year, Keith Williams sat behind Moore as a freshman.

Brannen has talked about how bench guys get less slack from him in terms of making mistakes. It takes time to learn to play defense and give effort on every play when you aren't used to it. I like Gabe's potential, but I don't expect much from him as a freshman.

Sure...it’s likely going to take some time to adjust. But even Cronin was ready to put guys like Cumberland, Evans, SK in during frosh year because they offered scoring options and he was a hawk on D. As long as the frosh aren’t horrible on D...if they can put a ball in a bucket they will provide some value and depth. I think Madsen will get plenty of looks for the same reason Jaevin did...he could score when we had to have some

 

[kskenyon4]

Sure...it’s likely going to take some time to adjust. But even Cronin was ready to put guys like Cumberland, Evans, SK in during frosh year because they offered scoring options and he was a hawk on D. As long as the frosh aren’t horrible on D...if they can put a ball in a bucket they will provide some value and depth. I think Madsen will get plenty of looks for the same reason Jaevin did...he could score when we had to have some

For what its worth, we know how Cronin liked to treat freshman and his philosophy, doesn't mean Brannen will be identical. Cronin valued Defense tremendously.

Brannen gave frosh the below minutes on this teams at NKU
18/19 - 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th
17/18 - 5th, 11th
16/17 - 4th, 7th, 9th, 10th

Compared to Cronin
18/19 - 11th
17/18 - 8th, 9th, 11th
16/17 - 6th, 8th, 9th

 

[cincyguy13]

I expect the offense to run much different with Cumberland out of it. Even if MAW is not “pg”...he should still get chances to be top of key and work downhill where he was very effective finishing around the rim on his left side. I expect with DDs speed and effectiveness in transition he will be the preferred outlet but once they get in half court sets it will become interchangeable and the guards will work through their rotations.

That’s a lot different than running ISO’s for one player

Totally agree. It’s an offensive where everyone has the ball and makes decisions. It’s not a one man show. It doesn’t matter who is dribbling the ball up the court. People make to much of that

 

[waterhead]

For what its worth, we know how Cronin liked to treat freshman and his philosophy, doesn't mean Brannen will be identical. Cronin valued Defense tremendously.

Brannen gave frosh the below minutes on this teams at NKU
18/19 - 6th, 7th, 9th, 10th
17/18 - 5th, 11th
16/17 - 4th, 7th, 9th, 10th

Compared to Cronin
18/19 - 11th
17/18 - 8th, 9th, 11th
16/17 - 6th, 8th, 9th

If we can get 2 frosh in the top 7 in minutes we are going to be stacked with quality depth. 2 of the following players would have to be moved to 8th or 9th.

Williams
Dejulius
Vogt
Dou
Rap
MAW
Harvey

I don't see 2 happening but even 1 would be a nice surprise.

 

[kskenyon4]

If we can get 2 frosh in the top 7 in minutes we are going to be stacked with quality depth. 2 of the following players would have to be moved to 8th or 9th.

Williams
Dejulius
Vogt
Dou
Rap
MAW
Harvey

I don't see 2 happening but even 1 would be a nice surprise.

Due to position break down, you have to think Eason will find his way to 7-8th most minutes.

 

[mdchick]

Chris Vogt entered his name in the nba draft

 

[cincyalum2014]

Chris Vogt entered his name in the nba draft

same as Keith, I see no issue will getting an evaluation...…. but I expect his feedback to be pretty quick..

 

[waterhead]

Due to position break down, you have to think Eason will find his way to 7-8th most minutes.

He probably has the easiest path. Of the bigs Vogt may see a drop in minutes. Dou has been inconsistent in his career. Rap is coming into a new situation. Davenport doesn't figure to be a major factor.

Then again, Harvey was not where he needed to be last year. MAW was playing mostly by default due to McNeal being bad and Harvey being behind as well. Gabe can play 2 positions if he picks the system up quickly he has a chance at decent minutes if his D is straight. MAW can't rest easy and Harvey must improve. Hopefully Harvey is at full strength and has more confidence. I don't think Gabe will be lacking confidence.

 

[kskenyon4]

He probably has the easiest path. Of the bigs Vogt may see a drop in minutes. Dou has been inconsistent in his career. Rap is coming into a new situation. Davenport doesn't figure to be a major factor.

Then again, Harvey was not where he needed to be last year. MAW was playing mostly by default due to McNeal being bad and Harvey being behind as well. Gabe can play 2 positions if he picks the system up quickly he has a chance at decent minutes if his D is straight. MAW can't rest easy and Harvey must improve. Hopefully Harvey is at full strength and has more confidence. I don't think Gabe will be lacking confidence.

Not to the same scale as Dou's late season surge, but I really liked the Harvey I saw in Feb/March compared to the rest of the year. No coincidence that was when Brannen said he was back to around 100%. He cut down on the silly fouls, hit some big shots, and played better than his numbers.

 

[waterhead]

Not to the same scale as Dou's late season surge, but I really liked the Harvey I saw in Feb/March compared to the rest of the year. No coincidence that was when Brannen said he was back to around 100%. He cut down on the silly fouls, hit some big shots, and played better than his numbers.

Yes Harvey looked better later on. He's a pretty good defender but he was brought here to score for the most part. If he can't score...he will only get the sub minutes for D when we need it. In his defense he wasn't really trying to score too much given we had others who could. He played pretty smart but he will be needed to be more aggressive this year and it remains to be seen how he handles that challenge. His offense is where I saw his biggest issues. Unlike MAW...when he went to the rack his shot was often blocked because he wasn't prepared for the adjustment to D1 defense. I am not sure he's the knock down shooter Gabe will be either. So he's going to have to get good at one or both of those things. MAW looked pretty good at both for a frosh with a 2" height difference. Harvey has a fluid style whereas MAW had more of a burst of speed and used his body at the rack to keep defenders from blocking his shots at the rim. Defenses will catch up to Harvey if he can't use his body or keep them off balance like an SK or Cumberland. Gabe has the ability to keep defenders off balance and hit shots while moving or fade aways etc. I have my concerns with Harvey so I hope he puts it together this year or he could be a transfer candidate.

 

[Queens_NYC]

Some numbers on Harvey to track his production:

Games played: 26

1st 13 games: 7.3 mpg, 26.7% FG (4-15), 0% 3FG (0-3), 50% FT (7-14), 7 games where he played less than 5 minutes

2nd 13 games: 10 mpg, 44% FG (11-25), 38.4% 3FG (5-13), 60% FT (6-10), 2 games where he played less than 5 minutes

His fouls per 40 minutes was higher in the 2nd half of the season.

 

[kskenyon4]

Some numbers on Harvey to track his production:

Games played: 26

1st 13 games: 7.3 mpg, 26.7% FG (4-15), 0% 3FG (0-3), 50% FT (7-14), 7 games where he played less than 5 minutes

2nd 13 games: 10 mpg, 44% FG (11-25), 38.4% 3FG (5-13), 60% FT (6-10), 2 games where he played less than 5 minutes

His fouls per 40 minutes was higher in the 2nd half of the season.

Lots of first/second half of season splits would be fascinating to see. Most probably have marked improvement, except Vogt. Some of that has to do with first year coach too I'm sure.

 

[waterhead]

Some numbers on Harvey to track his production:

Games played: 26

1st 13 games: 7.3 mpg, 26.7% FG (4-15), 0% 3FG (0-3), 50% FT (7-14), 7 games where he played less than 5 minutes

2nd 13 games: 10 mpg, 44% FG (11-25), 38.4% 3FG (5-13), 60% FT (6-10), 2 games where he played less than 5 minutes

His fouls per 40 minutes was higher in the 2nd half of the season.

He certainly looked better 2nd half of the season. Mostly on D. He was very selective with 3's which he may not be able to do as easily now. He wasn't particularly good at finishing or 2 pt jumpers. He was billed as a guy who had some ball skills so I hope he can get that part of his driving and slashing game going. Brannen went all in on Gabe and I think he will be more of a play maker and probably a better 3 pt shooter. So if his defense is up to par...he will be a major factor IMO.

 

[skyblade]

I was down on Harvey last year, but I expect him to be much better as a Sophomore. You could tell he was starting to figure it out in the second half of the season and he seems to have very good court awareness and vision. The biggest concern is his shooting (and committing too many dumb fouls), but I think he will be one of our better players at getting to the basket. I imagine playing 5 out motion a lot - pretty much any time Vogt isn't in - will create a lot of driving lanes.

I would not be surprised to see Harvey starting at SG, it will be between him and MAW for the final spot. Even if he doesn't start I think he will be the first guard/SF off the bench.

 

[skyblade]

I think people are too quick to judge Harvey. His bad freshman year should have been expected. He was injured for months before he signed, missed most of his HS senior year and spring practice for UC and part of summer practice because of his injury. It's part of the reason a player ranked so high ended up here.

His game reminds me a lot of Keith's, but he seems to have better court vision and a better 3 point shot than Keith did as a freshman. It takes slashers a bit longer to get used to the higher level of college play and also to stop deferring to upper classmen.

I also continue to believe that the freshmen class as a whole is being expected to do way more than is realistic. They are likely to miss significant chucks of practice time due to Covid-19, making the adjustment even tougher. Freshmen who make major contributions are the exception, not the rule.

If we are going to do well next season, I think Keith, DeJulius and Diarra are going to have to be the stars and play major minutes. Harvey, MAW, Rap and Vogt have to be solid contributors. At least one other player (Eason or (?)Prince) needs to step up.