2021-22 Open Thread

[MDW79]

Its only what fits the narrative though. If Kansas or Arkansas gets Ody over UC he complains Wes Miller can't recruit, but since he choose UC over them he obviously isn't good.

Not sure you really care, but you'd be 100% wrong.

I had a few conversations about this dude a week or so ago when his name first surfaced. Didn't want Miller going after another kid from North Carolina, who was a bench player on a 11-18 Wake Forest team. A school which bears his family name on the building.

It once again calls his recruiting network/pipeline into question and for someone like me I'm going to question the optics of that.

I also don't put a lot of stock into schools that get attatched to players during the process in 2021. Did Kansas really want this kid? Did they really push hard for him?

I kinda doubt that. And frankly if they did then they must be absolute mess. A kid at this level shouldn't even take up the 13th spot on a team like Kansas.

 

[Chance2017]

I am aware of his injury, yes. And I did watch a couple highlight vids.

I'm also aware that for whatever reason he decided to transfer from Clemson to UNCG. This doesn't suggest to me that him being slowed down by injury is the only reason he didn't play as much in 2020. It leads me to believe he knew he wasn't going to get the minutes he wanted there in 2021, and he didn't have a lot of high level suitors.

If he was that good, and it was just an injury that caused his play to drop, then why commit to UNCG? Why transfer from Clemson at all?

He grew up playing basketball with Wes' little brother and has known the family for years. I am not exactly sure what schools were in there when he entered the portal but if Wes isn't the coach he does not commit to UNCG

 

[MDW79]

He grew up playing basketball with Wes' little brother and has known the family for years. I am not exactly sure what schools were in there when he entered the portal but if Wes isn't the coach he does not commit to UNCG

But if Wes is the deciding and only factor then why not commit to Wes right out of high school?

I think it's pretty clear he initially valued Clemson over UNCG. So if he's that good, and he's going to be fully back to form then why transfer from Clemson?

I think that answer is pretty clear. He got buried on a medicore Clemson depth chart and they recruited over him and he wasn't going to see the PT he wanted.

So we're getting a guy that wasn't good enough to start at Clemson in '21. There's nothing wrong with that, we needed bodies. But I'm not going to do cartwheels about getting a bench player from a team like them.

 

[Chance2017]

But if Wes is the deciding and only factor then why not commit to Wes right out of high school?

I think it's pretty clear he initially valued Clemson over UNCG. So if he's that good, and he's going to be fully back to form then why transfer from Clemson?

I think that answer is pretty clear. He got buried on a medicore Clemson depth chart and they recruited over him and he wasn't going to see the PT he wanted.

So we're getting a guy that wasn't good enough to start at Clemson in '21. There's nothing wrong with that, we needed bodies. But I'm not going to do cartwheels about getting a bench player from a team like them.

Clemson has had some major transfer issues so if you want to look into John Newman's 2020-2021 season with a hurt knee in that environment be my guest man.

https://rubbingtherock.com/2021/05/01/clemson-basketball-parents-abuse/

 

[sedziobs]

Tari was a bench player for a bad team. Your standards for transfers are too high.

 

[MDW79]

Tari was a bench player for a bad team. Your standards for transfers are too high.

Tari was a true Freshman and was a top 100 recruit (#57 by Rivals).

Oguama was a Sophmore and was ranked in the 500's in his class. Newman was a Junior who ranked outside the top 150.

I don't really consider these to be apples to apples comparisons.

 

[sedziobs]

Well now you've moved the goalposts to high school rankings. You're picking the most negative attributes of the players we brought in and comparing to the most positive attributes of other players.

 

[waterhead]

But if Wes is the deciding and only factor then why not commit to Wes right out of high school?

I think it's pretty clear he initially valued Clemson over UNCG. So if he's that good, and he's going to be fully back to form then why transfer from Clemson?

I think that answer is pretty clear. He got buried on a medicore Clemson depth chart and they recruited over him and he wasn't going to see the PT he wanted.

So we're getting a guy that wasn't good enough to start at Clemson in '21. There's nothing wrong with that, we needed bodies. But I'm not going to do cartwheels about getting a bench player from a team like them.

Your "pretty clear" evaluation of getting buried is incorrect. He played the most minutes on the team his soph year and you think he's getting recruited over? Come on man just think it through! The explanation is that he was recovering from injury but still wanted to play and didn't see eye to eye with the coach as the season went on. At the end of the year they were at odds with one another. But you think he digressed so much in one year or maybe just got super lucky his soph year? Come on man

So yes I expect a fully healthy Newman going through monster factory and coming out even more athletic than 2 years ago and being a force in this league.

 

[waterhead]

Not sure you really care, but you'd be 100% wrong.

I had a few conversations about this dude a week or so ago when his name first surfaced. Didn't want Miller going after another kid from North Carolina, who was a bench player on a 11-18 Wake Forest team. A school which bears his family name on the building.

It once again calls his recruiting network/pipeline into question and for someone like me I'm going to question the optics of that.

I also don't put a lot of stock into schools that get attatched to players during the process in 2021. Did Kansas really want this kid? Did they really push hard for him?

I kinda doubt that. And frankly if they did then they must be absolute mess. A kid at this level shouldn't even take up the 13th spot on a team like Kansas.

Remember Ody is just a soph that started over 40 games in the ACC already

 

[MDW79]

1.) Your "pretty clear" evaluation of getting buried is incorrect. He played the most minutes on the team his soph year and you think he's getting recruited over? Come on man just think it through!

2.) The explanation is that he was recovering from injury but still wanted to play and didn't see eye to eye with the coach as the season went on. At the end of the year they were at odds with one another. But you think he digressed so much in one year or maybe just got super lucky his soph year? Come on man

So yes I expect a fully healthy Newman going through monster factory and coming out even more athletic than 2 years ago and being a force in this league.

1.) When I'm talking about being recruited over or moving down the depth chart I'm talking now, or in for the upcoming season. Did I say they started to recruit over him in 2019?

2.) Maybe you're right. Maybe he's going to be awesome. Really weird though that he'd commit to some BS program like UNCG though if he was some stud.

PS The dude averaged 9.5 points, 3.9 RB and 2 AST playing 31 minutes a game for a 16-15 Clemson team. Can we stop pretending like this is that impressive? He was a medicore player on a medicore team.

 

[Jon Rycek]

Not sure you really care, but you'd be 100% wrong.

I had a few conversations about this dude a week or so ago when his name first surfaced. Didn't want Miller going after another kid from North Carolina, who was a bench player on a 11-18 Wake Forest team. A school which bears his family name on the building.

It once again calls his recruiting network/pipeline into question and for someone like me I'm going to question the optics of that.

I also don't put a lot of stock into schools that get attatched to players during the process in 2021. Did Kansas really want this kid? Did they really push hard for him?

I kinda doubt that. And frankly if they did then they must be absolute mess. A kid at this level shouldn't even take up the 13th spot on a team like Kansas.

Yeah why would he recruit in the state he’s been a coach in for the last ten years. Come in man you expect him to have ties in the area after 30 days. Lmao

 

[waterhead]

Not sure you really care, but you'd be 100% wrong.

I had a few conversations about this dude a week or so ago when his name first surfaced. Didn't want Miller going after another kid from North Carolina, who was a bench player on a 11-18 Wake Forest team. A school which bears his family name on the building.

It once again calls his recruiting network/pipeline into question and for someone like me I'm going to question the optics of that.

I also don't put a lot of stock into schools that get attatched to players during the process in 2021. Did Kansas really want this kid? Did they really push hard for him?

I kinda doubt that. And frankly if they did then they must be absolute mess. A kid at this level shouldn't even take up the 13th spot on a team like Kansas.

So the coach is recruiting because of his connections and that is a bad thing? What else do you recruit on? Come on man. Has connections in the south? Uh yah? Where most of his current relationships probably are? Uh huh.

And why would Kansas, Arkansas, and others even bother to reach out? I mean there are two years of tapes to look over. If they didn't see something interesting why waste time calling a guy you think can't play? Do you reach out to say you aren't interested? Come on man.

 

[MDW79]

I'm going to post one more thing. I'm sure my negativity isn't welcome and I'm not going to turn into JustinHub just bombarding the board with it.

For those that think I'm just looking for things to complain about I assure that's not the case. These are things I brought up in advance. So when I see them coming to fruition it's not exactly just me complaining for the sake of complaining.

Right when Miller's name surfaced as being the guy I had a number of questions. Fwiw, I went throught a lot of these on BCN and in some real life conversation.

I wondered about a guy whose entire career, both as a player and coach being in North Carolina. UNC (Player) to Elon (asst) to High Point (asst) to UNCG (HC). This lead to me question if he could recruit outside of the area.

I also wondered about the levels of players he could attract outside of just their locations. His entire coaching career has been on lower tier programs. He's never been an assistant going after high level players. He had zero experience in competing for top level players.

I also said that I did NOT want him building out his staff with UNCG coaches. This is entirely different level of basketball with an entirely different level of pay. I didn't want to see him take the lazy route and just hire the guys he knows and give them all 100-200% raises.

I also said I did not want to see us taking on a bunch of UNCG transfers, much for the same reasons I just listed for the coaches. We need a high caliber of athlete, and it strikes me as lazy. The size of portal and the number of players available is too great to settle on just bringing over a bunch of Southern Conference players.

So look at what's happen since. 3 of the 4 coach hires have UNCG (ties). The other is from the South. 4 of the 5 of players have UNCG ties. The other played in North Carolina and played at a school where Miller's dad is a HUGE booster. None of the players we've gotten are what I would consider legitimate starters at this level.

These are all the things I did not see. Nothing but North Carolina connections, filling out the staff and roster with UNCG guys, not signing any major players.

Look, I realize he had to build out a roster quickly. I understand we're not going to be getting 5 star guys. I understand he was going to bring over a couple people he was familliar with. But this a bit freaking much.

You can say I'm wrong, you can accuse me of being negative, but don't say I'm just finding things to complain about. Every single thing that scared me off about this guy is now happening.

I was really hoping he'd wow me and show me why he's considered the best coach in America under 40. I wanted to be impressed. I'm not. AT ALL. It honestly looks like he still thinks he's coaching for UNCG and is trying to win the Southern. Outside of Chad Dollar every single move this dude has made has been mid-major. Lazy, boring, lackluster, all these words come to mind when describing his approach to building out his program so far.

 

[waterhead]

1.) When I'm talking about being recruited over or moving down the depth chart I'm talking now, or in for the upcoming season. Did I say they started to recruit over him in 2019?

2.) Maybe you're right. Maybe he's going to be awesome. Really weird though that he'd commit to some BS program like UNCG though if he was some stud.

PS The dude averaged 9.5 points, 3.9 RB and 2 AST playing 31 minutes a game for a 16-15 Clemson team. Can we stop pretending like this is that impressive? He was a medicore player on a medicore team.

Those aren't bad numbers for a soph. Sounds like Keith Williams numbers.

And who is pretending that this is OVERLY impressive? It's solid and the coach will be looking to improve the scoring on the wing. He's not a go to guy. But he can play 20 minutes and be productive.

You seem to be pretending (using your words) that a lot of people are over the moon about these recruits. I don't get that same impression.

A straw man argument is arguing a point nobody else is making.

 

[Loser Mentality]

I'm going to post one more thing. I'm sure my negativity isn't welcome and I'm not going to turn into JustinHub just bombarding the board with it.

For those that think I'm just looking for things to complain about I assure that's not the case. These are things I brought up in advance. So when I see them coming to fruition it's not exactly just me complaining for the sake of complaining.

Right when Miller's name surfaced as being the guy I had a number of questions. Fwiw, I went throught a lot of these on BCN and in some real life conversation.

I wondered about a guy whose entire career, both as a player and coach being in North Carolina. UNC (Player) to Elon (asst) to High Point (asst) to UNCG (HC). This lead to me question if he could recruit outside of the area.

I also wondered about the levels of players he could attract outside of just their locations. His entire coaching career has been on lower tier programs. He's never been an assistant going after high level players. He had zero experience in competing for top level players.

I also said that I did NOT want him building out his staff with UNCG coaches. This is entirely different level of basketball with an entirely different level of pay. I didn't want to see him take the lazy route and just hire the guys he knows and give them all 100-200% raises.

I also said I did not want to see us taking on a bunch of UNCG transfers, much for the same reasons I just listed for the coaches. We need a high caliber of athlete, and it strikes me as lazy. The size of portal and the number of players available is too great to settle on just bringing over a bunch of Southern Conference players.

So look at what's happen since. 3 of the 4 coach hires have UNCG (ties). The other is from the South. 4 of the 5 of players have UNCG ties. The other played in North Carolina and played at a school where Miller's dad is a HUGE booster. None of the players we've gotten are what I would consider legitimate starters at this level.

These are all the things I did not see. Nothing but North Carolina connections, filling out the staff and roster with UNCG guys, not signing any major players.

Look, I realize he had to build out a roster quickly. I understand we're not going to be getting 5 star guys. I understand he was going to bring over a couple people he was familliar with. But this a bit freaking much.

You can say I'm wrong, you can accuse me of being negative, but don't say I'm just finding things to complain about. Every single thing that scared me off about this guy is now happening.

I was really hoping he'd wow me and show me why he's considered the best coach in America under 40. I wanted to be impressed. I'm not. AT ALL. It honestly looks like he still thinks he's coaching for UNCG and is trying to win the Southern. Outside of Chad Dollar every single move this dude has made has been mid-major. Lazy, boring, lackluster, all these words come to mind when describing his approach to building out his program so far.

What I see, not that any of our opinions matters, is a competitive team being put together, with maybe 1 or 2 starting positions for returning players. Which I think is great.

Time for the players to earn their keep, just because a few are from UNCG doesn't mean their not better than the returning talent. Monster Factory and time will tell. I think we are in a good situation going forward.

 

[sedziobs]

I'm not over the moon about anybody, but I am happy that we have filled all of holes we had after the exodus. The only newcomer I have pegged for more than 20 mpg is Newman, and that assumes he is healthy. He's a defense first player, so looking at his offensive numbers doesn't tell you how good he is. Some of the young guys clearly have potential watching tape. Oby is very mobile and high energy for his size, and is already a great rebounder as a sophomore. McGinnis can be an elite shooter. Hensley has the size and agility to be a good 4. Let's evaluate these guys after they've had a couple years to develop. Until then we'll count on our upperclassmen to carry the load.

 

[waterhead]

I'm going to post one more thing. I'm sure my negativity isn't welcome and I'm not going to turn into JustinHub just bombarding the board with it.

For those that think I'm just looking for things to complain about I assure that's not the case. These are things I brought up in advance. So when I see them coming to fruition it's not exactly just me complaining for the sake of complaining.

Right when Miller's name surfaced as being the guy I had a number of questions. Fwiw, I went throught a lot of these on BCN and in some real life conversation.

I wondered about a guy whose entire career, both as a player and coach being in North Carolina. UNC (Player) to Elon (asst) to High Point (asst) to UNCG (HC). This lead to me question if he could recruit outside of the area.

I also wondered about the levels of players he could attract outside of just their locations. His entire coaching career has been on lower tier programs. He's never been an assistant going after high level players. He had zero experience in competing for top level players.

I also said that I did NOT want him building out his staff with UNCG coaches. This is entirely different level of basketball with an entirely different level of pay. I didn't want to see him take the lazy route and just hire the guys he knows and give them all 100-200% raises.

I also said I did not want to see us taking on a bunch of UNCG transfers, much for the same reasons I just listed for the coaches. We need a high caliber of athlete, and it strikes me as lazy. The size of portal and the number of players available is too great to settle on just bringing over a bunch of Southern Conference players.

So look at what's happen since. 3 of the 4 coach hires have UNCG (ties). The other is from the South. 4 of the 5 of players have UNCG ties. The other played in North Carolina and played at a school where Miller's dad is a HUGE booster. None of the players we've gotten are what I would consider legitimate starters at this level.

These are all the things I did not see. Nothing but North Carolina connections, filling out the staff and roster with UNCG guys, not signing any major players.

Look, I realize he had to build out a roster quickly. I understand we're not going to be getting 5 star guys. I understand he was going to bring over a couple people he was familliar with. But this a bit freaking much.

You can say I'm wrong, you can accuse me of being negative, but don't say I'm just finding things to complain about. Every single thing that scared me off about this guy is now happening.

I was really hoping he'd wow me and show me why he's considered the best coach in America under 40. I wanted to be impressed. I'm not. AT ALL. It honestly looks like he still thinks he's coaching for UNCG and is trying to win the Southern. Outside of Chad Dollar every single move this dude has made has been mid-major. Lazy, boring, lackluster, all these words come to mind when describing his approach to building out his program so far.

I think you may be trying to fulfill your own prophecy. Some things you left out.

Only one coach from UNCG will be on the bench. The other came over from the B10 and one from the SEC. We got Rehfeldt from Uconn. We are probably adding two former players to the staff. And I don't think Wes is done adding significant staff members.

In terms of players he convinced Mike and Mason to come back out of the portal after what seemed to be an awful first year experience here. Also got two playes from the ACC so far...and 3 from UNCG. Roster is stabilized and Wes is shooting for stars next. At least 1 if not 2 more players that will be better than the rest. If they come out of the south I don't care. It's gonna take time to build relationships in a new region.

I would say again be patient again but it seems like whatever happens from here you will find a way to marginalize it.

 

[waterhead]

I'm not over the moon about anybody, but I am happy that we have filled all of holes we had after the exodus. The only newcomer I have pegged for more than 20 mpg is Newman, and that assumes he is healthy. He's a defense first player, so looking at his offensive numbers doesn't tell you how good he is. Some of the young guys clearly have potential watching tape. Oby is very mobile and high energy for his size, and is already a great rebounder as a sophomore. McGinnis can be an elite shooter. Hensley has the size and agility to be a good 4. Let's evaluate these guys after they've had a couple years to develop. Until then we'll count on our upperclassmen to carry the load.

I agree about waiting to see what Wes decided to bring over from UNCG. I am not talking about Koval or Newman here. Koval is a one year stop gap to split time. Newman is from the ACC.

He decided Hensley and McGinnis were worth bringing for one reason or another. Worst case they sit at the end of the bench and play spot minutes. We can't play 13 guys anyway. I think the best case is Wes knows their potential and sees the upside. His highest rated recruit (tall guy with skills doesn't hurt) and what many believe would have been the point getter next year at UNCG as a soph.

I am sure Wes knows what he has in these guys already but even if they don't pan out he can help them find a better fit for their skills and playing time. Not really much to lose here. I don't think a player would want to come and sit the bench for 3 years.

 

[MDW79]

Yeah why would he recruit in the state he’s been a coach in for the last ten years. Come in man you expect him to have ties in the area after 30 days. Lmao

No problem with him recruiting in Carolina. I do have a problem with him exclusively recruiting in Carolina though.

Not sure if this really needs to be said, but to succeed at this level you're going to have to recruit from more than one state.

And I don't have a problem with him not having tons of ties to specifically this area yet either. But it appears he doesn't have ties anywhere.

 

[MDW79]

I would say again be patient again but it seems like whatever happens from here you will find a way to marginalize it.

I already laid out what he has to no for me not to "marginalize it".

Start recruiting guys that aren't a.) only from North Carolina b.) players who wouldn't start for any top 50 team in America.

I'm not exactly asking for the moon here.