Fatigue

[Alum2013]

I don’t think fatigue is a big factor. The grind of the season might be getting old, but I don’t think they are actually tired. At that age I could play basketball all day everyday, and these guys are in way better shape and better athletes than me

There's a difference in playing bball in the rec against a bunch of other scrubs and playing actual basketball lol Mick even admitted fatigue played a large part in the struggles of the 2013-2014 team because the 3 seniors were having to do so much.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

As with any issue, we need to clearly define what the claim is. Fatigue, like many other factors, is not black and white. The claim from the UCF thread seemed to be that resting players 5 minutes so they aren't playing all 40 will improve performance in the future. That's a specific claim, but it's not testable. We have to rely on intuition.

As to your examples, fatigue could play a role in all of them, or it could play no role. That sounds cliche, but it's true. Cronin already admitted today that Gary was not tired against UConn. He was apparently trying to protect his injured mouth. But even Cronin doesn't know for a fact whether Gary's performance suffered from fatigue, and Gary himself probably doesn't either. No data is going to help either.

Against Florida, we lost for a variety of reasons. To my eye, the most important was it took us way too long to adjust to Chiozza isolating our small guards and backing them down. Possibly the week off played a role, but there's no real way to tell. If we played that same game 9 more times, we might win 6 of them. Trying to draw conclusions about anything from any individual game is difficult.

Evans' shooting percentages over a 3 game stretch are purely anecdotal in my opinion. There's way too much variance to say anything with that small of a sample.

The Jackson case would probably be better served using a metric other than shooting, since his effectiveness was not necessarily measured that way. Regardless, that example also suffers from small sample size, and it's not controlled for anything at all.

There are different philosophies regarding rest among coaches across college and NBA basketball. And each philosophy is valid because there is no conclusive evidence regarding the effectiveness of rest.

Personally, I think rest is pretty insignificant from game to game. If a player has a sore joint that needs to heal, then keeping him off it as long as possible will help. But I really doubt that giving a healthy Evans 35 instead of 40 minutes is going to do anything for him. And I also doubt that playing Florida after a week off had much to do at all with why we lost. But I can't test those ideas, so they remain opinions.

I wasn't talking about the Florida game. I was saying we went to NY for that, back to Cincy, out to Cali, back to Cincy in 8 days against good teams. Then played 2 games in 3 days just 3 days later. The 2nd half of Arkansas Pine Bluff at game was 34-33. Then we gave up 62 to Cleveland State and struggled overall. I submit that fatigue was a factor in those Pine Bluff and Cleveland State performances.

 

[waterhead]

There's a difference in playing bball in the rec against a bunch of other scrubs and playing actual basketball lol Mick even admitted fatigue played a large part in the struggles of the 2013-2014 team because the 3 seniors were having to do so much.

Here's the crazy thing about that 2013-2014 season. Only one guy averaged above 29 mpg (SK). Last year SMU had 5 over 29.6. They kicked our butts. We barely escaped the home game. We had 2 players above 27.6 mpg.

 

[sedziobs]

The 2nd half of Arkansas Pine Bluff at game was 34-33.

Our bench played 115 minutes in that game. We were up 28-4 after 10 minutes. The only starter who logged more than 20 minutes was Evans with 24, and he had an ORtg of 130. Diarra and Nsoseme combined for 19 minutes. Keith and Trevor combined for 36. I just don't think that kind of game is a relevant example.

 

[sedziobs]

Then we gave up 62 to Cleveland State and struggled overall.

Cleveland St made 10 threes at 48% in that game, which accounted for almost half their points. That kind of thing will happen. Maybe a fatigued defense was the reason, but considering the amount of rest everyone got in the previous game, this one almost seems to go against your point.

 

[Cartel]

I wasn't talking about the Florida game. I was saying we went to NY for that, back to Cincy, out to Cali, back to Cincy in 8 days against good teams. Then played 2 games in 3 days just 3 days later. The 2nd half of Arkansas Pine Bluff at game was 34-33. Then we gave up 62 to Cleveland State and struggled overall. I submit that fatigue was a factor in those Pine Bluff and Cleveland State performances.

This is becoming a moving target. Your original argument was too many minutes. Now you are focused on travel. I totally buy mental fatigue and I did not see any arguments on the board to the contrary. It is the physical fatigue over playing an extra 5 minutes a game that is hard to believe.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

This is becoming a moving target. Your original argument was too many minutes. Now you are focused on travel. I totally buy mental fatigue and I did not see any arguments on the board to the contrary. It is the physical fatigue over playing an extra 5 minutes a game that is hard to believe.

I'm not moving the target. I'm legitimately just seeing if/how it factors in. I'm not married to any point of view on this. I'm trying to see how much there is to the idea of guys wearing down. There are a lot of different factors...I'm just kind of thinking out loud on the subject.

 

[Alum2013]

Here's the crazy thing about that 2013-2014 season. Only one guy averaged above 29 mpg (SK). Last year SMU had 5 over 29.6. They kicked our butts. We barely escaped the home game. We had 2 players above 27.6 mpg.

Semi and Sean were pretty even players. The rest of their starting 5-6 were much much better than the rest of our team that year. Jackson and Rubles were good for defense but gave little offensively and the rest of the team was young or bad.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

As someone who trains and has trained people I can tell you quantities matter in physical conditioning. The amount of physical activity and the amount of care given to nutrition are huge factors in performance. Of course these factors may impact people differently but they are very real and very important. Legs matter in basketball from a elevation stand point and how it affects your shot. Especially late in games. I would assume Mick and many coaches around the country are tied into their strength and conditioning people during the season. Their input would be very important to how practices are run and how physical conditioning is implemented throughout the season. I would even go so far as to say it is probably broken down by individual.

 

[waterhead]

As someone who trains and has trained people I can tell you quantities matter in physical conditioning. The amount of physical activity and the amount of care given to nutrition are huge factors in performance. Of course these factors may impact people differently but they are very real and very important. Legs matter in basketball from a elevation stand point and how it affects your shot. Especially late in games. I would assume Mick and many coaches around the country are tied into their strength and conditioning people during the season. Their input would be very important to how practices are run and how physical conditioning is implemented throughout the season. I would even go so far as to say it is probably broken down by individual.

I would agree with this. If Kyle signals to Cronin he's tired...then of course we get him a breather. Same with Clark. If Evans has no problem going all 40 and we need him in a close game...then give him all 40. Cumberland is not in tip top shape but he's also not running around like a chicken with his head cut off. He does more with little movement as anyone. Our PG's should have no troubles hitting 25-30 minutes when we need it from either of them.

Case by case...game by game. I don't think we need to incorporate rest (for the sake of rest) if the player we are resting doesn't need it at the time.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I would agree with this. If Kyle signals to Cronin he's tired...then of course we get him a breather. Same with Clark. If Evans has no problem going all 40 and we need him in a close game...then give him all 40. Cumberland is not in tip top shape but he's also not running around like a chicken with his head cut off. He does more with little movement as anyone. Our PG's should have no troubles hitting 25-30 minutes when we need it from either of them.

Case by case...game by game. I don't think we need to incorporate rest (for the sake of rest) if the player we are resting doesn't need it at the time.

Rest is not given for the sake of rest. Each player probably has a individual profile. They are tested individually and tracked though out the season. Like in other sports players are tapered to be at their most effective physical conditioning at times when they will be performing. Each sport is different but much time and thought is given to each player. For example power lifters will train to be at their peak on the day of the meet. I needed at least 7 days of rest prior to a meet for my legs to be rested for a max squat effort. Chest was 5 and so forth. Basketball is very different but I would be shocked if a trainer who works with these guys all year doesn't have input to Mick on their conditioning. Swimmers are another group that requires tapering to be at peak performance prior to a meet. It is a lot more scientific then many would think. Following these plans is huge in athletics. That is why routines are so important to professional athletes.

 

[waterhead]

Rest is not given for the sake of rest. Each player probably has a individual profile. They are tested individually and tracked though out the season. Like in other sports players are tapered to be at their most effective physical conditioning at times when they will be performing. Each sport is different but much time and thought is given to each player. For example power lifters will train to be at their peak on the day of the meet. I needed at least 7 days of rest prior to a meet for my legs to be rested for a max squat effort. Chest was 5 and so forth. Basketball is very different but I would be shocked if a trainer who works with these guys all year doesn't have input to Mick on their conditioning. Swimmers are another group that requires tapering to be at peak performance prior to a meet. It is a lot more scientific then many would think. Following these plans is huge in athletics. That is why routines are so important to professional athletes.

I get all of that stuff...I really do. This is more of a daily regimen thing than an in game thing. For instance...let's say Gary is most efficient at 28 mpg and is less efficient at 35 mpg. Does this mean we should play Gary 28 minutes? Not if the replacement you put in is less effective than Gary when he's getting 35. Which I would argue...as #9 for POY stats in the country...we have nobody else in the same stratosphere we can put in the game to match him at a reduced efficiency.

 

[sedziobs]

We're talking about different things again. Conditioning is a different concept than a player sitting on the bench for 5 minutes affecting his play in other games. Some players need rest during the game because they are tired at the time, and their performance falls below an acceptable threshold. The question is, should a player who is still performing at an acceptable level rest for 5 minutes in order to prevent fatigue in subsequent games?

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I see what both you guys are saying but please consider that physical conditioning changes do to all the activity over a period of time. It really is a moving target that changes over the course of the season. It also has to be adjusted on the fly quite a bit.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

Mental fatigue and physical fatigue are obviously real factors. I think an in-game situation where you might need to push a guy a couple extra minutes because you need your best players on the floor is OK and has no serious long term repercussions as long as it's not every game. You can be smart about substituting a guy out before a TV timeout to maximize rest and get a guy a ten minute breather and maybe only burn 1-2 minutes off the clock. You can also defense-offense switch guys to cheat some rest time as our defensive replacements often don't see as much a drop as our offensive replacements might. And if some players get a little overworked in a game, you can back off practice the next day. I think what you can't do is over play a guy to where he's tired and then still practice him hard to where he wears down a and just continue to do that. That will cause long term fatigue and can lead to him not being able to go 100 percent and lead to being more injury prone. But if these guys enter a game at 100 percent, there's no reason they can't play a few extra minutes than what they're used to. And I think Mick does a good job of making sure each player is at tip-top conditioning before each game. But you never need to play a guy more than he needs to because, especially later in the season, you don't want to wear them out and secondly, the backups need solid minutes to develop.

As far as mental fatigue, I think that is as important as anything. Seasons are long and routines become stale. You have to switch things up and give the guys something new to occupy their minds as well. Like doing stuff on road trips you don't normally get to do and switching up practices. Just something to break up the monotony. I think this is less important with veteran teams as they have been through it and are more naturally focused on the task at hand. This team in particular seems very focused and that is the best thing you can ask for.

With all that said, I'm just happy this is what we as fans are talking and arguing about. When we're not winning it's always about Mick or the players or the play which always turns back around to Mick and coaching and recruiting. What a great time to be a Bearcat.

 

[waterhead]

Mental fatigue and physical fatigue are obviously real factors. I think an in-game situation where you might need to push a guy a couple extra minutes because you need your best players on the floor is OK and has no serious long term repercussions as long as it's not every game. You can be smart about substituting a guy out before a TV timeout to maximize rest and get a guy a ten minute breather and maybe only burn 1-2 minutes off the clock. You can also defense-offense switch guys to cheat some rest time as our defensive replacements often don't see as much a drop as our offensive replacements might. And if some players get a little overworked in a game, you can back off practice the next day. I think what you can't do is over play a guy to where he's tired and then still practice him hard to where he wears down a and just continue to do that. That will cause long term fatigue and can lead to him not being able to go 100 percent and lead to being more injury prone. But if these guys enter a game at 100 percent, there's no reason they can't play a few extra minutes than what they're used to. And I think Mick does a good job of making sure each player is at tip-top conditioning before each game. But you never need to play a guy more than he needs to because, especially later in the season, you don't want to wear them out and secondly, the backups need solid minutes to develop.

As far as mental fatigue, I think that is as important as anything. Seasons are long and routines become stale. You have to switch things up and give the guys something new to occupy their minds as well. Like doing stuff on road trips you don't normally get to do and switching up practices. Just something to break up the monotony. I think this is less important with veteran teams as they have been through it and are more naturally focused on the task at hand. This team in particular seems very focused and that is the best thing you can ask for.

With all that said, I'm just happy this is what we as fans are talking and arguing about. When we're not winning it's always about Mick or the players or the play which always turns back around to Mick and coaching and recruiting. What a great time to be a Bearcat.

I agree with most of this....good post! Of course I am going to pick out the one thing that bothers me a little...lol!

I really feel we are past the point of developing backups (for this season anyway). I really feel like most of them have had a chance to learn their role and earn playing time. Are there teaching moments left? Sure...but very few. It's crunch time.

Most players know their role right now. I am not sure Williams does. He is the only player I am not sure has figured it out yet.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

I agree with most of this....good post! Of course I am going to pick out the one thing that bothers me a little...lol!

I really feel we are past the point of developing backups (for this season anyway). I really feel like most of them have had a chance to learn their role and earn playing time. Are there teaching moments left? Sure...but very few. It's crunch time.

Most players know their role right now. I am not sure Williams does. He is the only player I am not sure has figured it out yet.

I'm not worried as much about developing backups for this year as I am next. This year we can count on our starters and we have good enough backup play to where guys know their roles. Next year we start two new guys down low that both will need to get much better and 50-50 imo we have a new starter at the 3 spot. I want those future starters to have as much in game experience as possible because practicing vs. the same guys and set plays doesn't give you the same experience as going against new faces and the unknown. Brooks and Scott and Nsoseme need playing time as much as possible right now as does Moore and Williams. When you're up 20 in February there's no reason to be playing upper classmen who aren't really developing anymore and the risk-reward factor skews heavily on the risk side.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Fatigue could also be linked directly to snapchat. If a player announces a breakup with girlfriend on snapper, then going to have a monster game, if still with female then poor outing. #Science