It doesn't matter who starts...

[waterhead]

Does it matter how a player gets 30 minutes as long as he gets them?

Would you rather have your best players finish than start?

Would you rather it be both?

I personally think it matters a great deal who starts and who finishes. But solid starts on the road seem especially important to me. I don't think it's a myth if you give an underdog a glimmer of hope early on as well as the crowd...they are going to feed off of that energy. That team will dig deeper on D... concentrate more on O etc until you squash their hopes. The earlier the better IMO.

 

[Alum2013]

Completely agree and think it does matter who starts. There's a reason teams have their best players starting the games and not coming off the bench.

I would say more but I think you covered why it makes a difference.

 

[cincrulz11]

yeah but are you guys college coaches? i dont think so, so your opinion isn't valid.




i mean sure a ton of other college coaches start their best players.




but you aren't a college coach so don't you dare question anything.



/sarcasm

 

[jacobkdoyle]

This conversation is so tired. We've heard every angle of every which way. Is what it is. Broome seems back on track with the ankle. That's the most important thing.

I know it was sarcasm, but there are definitely different levels of what we should/can be questioning. General basketball strategy, like this, perfectly fine to talk about imo. More specific X's and O's type stuff, I won't speak for everyone, but I'd be much more out of my depth. I think people who use the differences in philosophy/strategy to act like they know more than the coach should keep that in mind.

 

[TheShoeFits]

I could care less who starts.

As long as Cane is getting 25-30 minutes and Justin is getting 10-15. Which is the way it seems to be trending.

 

[cincrulz11]

This conversation is so tired. We've heard every angle of every which way. Is what it is. Broome seems back on track with the ankle. That's the most important thing.

I know it was sarcasm, but there are definitely different levels of what we should/can be questioning. General basketball strategy, like this, perfectly fine to talk about imo. More specific X's and O's type stuff, I won't speak for everyone, but I'd be much more out of my depth. I think people who use the differences in philosophy/strategy to act like they know more than the coach should keep that in mind.

we are getting too close to a spot where if you don't agree with somebody you call them a hater and an idiot.


is it not possible to state your claim and stick to the claim? i mean the point of a place like this is to debate things right?

 

[justinhub2003]

I could care less who starts.

As long as Cane is getting 25-30 minutes and Justin is getting 10-15. Which is the way it seems to be trending.

Preach.


I'm done talking this issue though. IF it bites us in the ass then we can revisit, right now were winning and that formula works.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

we are getting too close to a spot where if you don't agree with somebody you call them a hater and an idiot.


is it not possible to state your claim and stick to the claim? i mean the point of a place like this is to debate things right?

?

 

[jacobkdoyle]

we are getting too close to a spot where if you don't agree with somebody you call them a hater and an idiot.


is it not possible to state your claim and stick to the claim? i mean the point of a place like this is to debate things right?

I'm saying something like this is exactly what we should be discussing. I don't care what side of it anyone is on, I just am tired of this specific topic all day everyday. I'm just saying more for the sake of credibility. Like for example, the guy who was saying Scott isn't a D1 player. Probably safe to blindly side with the 15 year D1 head coach on that one. That's something we shouldn't be questioning. And I don't review film or watch the games multiple times, so I can make general observations, but I'm not going to call out coaching and get pissed and act like I know more when I really don't know the intricacies of what we're running. That's all I'm saying. But I also haven't been called out as a hater like you, so I can see how you would be concerned about "allowed" discussion.

 

[cincrulz11]

?

forget what the topic in general is about.




when the response to a take is "well your not a coach" or "when i see what people are saying i wonder if they've ever watched basketball before" you then start to personally argue against people instead of debating the original stance.



thats how topic linger on and on and on when there is nothing that could be added to them. even the people arguing about it don't even want to argue about it.



nothing is added when the argument is just "he's the coach so he's right". plenty of coaches see the same exact situation multiple different ways. there is no right and wrong way in a lot of circumstances. and thats why we are all here to debate and talk about things maybe we would do differently if we were a coach. i dont think anybody is trying to claim they are smarter than Cronin and know more about the team than he does.

 

[waterhead]

yeah but are you guys college coaches? i dont think so, so your opinion isn't valid.




i mean sure a ton of other college coaches start their best players.




but you aren't a college coach so don't you dare question anything.



/sarcasm

Yes. I agree. Coach knows best is not the best argument I've heard. Our coach said himself he is stumped right now at why we come out slow. I mean he is looking for answers. I happen to think there is an obvious one we can try staring him in the face.

Because we win the games...is not a very good excuse to come out slow either. Eventually it could cost you. It doesn't have to cost you if you can figure it out. We need every advantage we can get...fast starts included.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

It's pretty simple why Cane doesn't start. Justin plays much better defense in Cronin's half court switching zone defense he runs...essentially he doesn't get lost and lose his man in it. Also, he takes care of the ball and isn't as careless with the ball with passes. And he doesn't go rogue on offense and put up ill advised shots. Cane came out doing all three of these things and that will simply not sit well with Cronin. Cronin trusts the ball in Justin's hands and doesn't in Cane's. He trusts Jenifer to run his system and game plan. He's found a role for Cane and Cane has been wildly successful giving a scoring boost off the bench when a change of pace is needed and also does well in the press when Cronin likes to sub in guys to all out full court press. Cronin cares more about running an offense and game plan and not making mistakes you can control than he does someone's ability to dribble around a defense and put up any shot he wants. We don't start slow because Cane isn't in there. Cane doesn't make Clark make bunnies as opposed to missing them. He doesn't make Evans come alive. He doesn't make Cumberland start making open threes as opposed to missing them. I, too, am getting tired of hearing this argument day after day, thread after thread and year after year. Cronin has a game plan and expects his players to run it, plain and simple. I heard an interview with Terry Nelson the other day asking about Justin and Cane and he said these same things. "Defense and taking care of the ball." Cronin doesn't full court all-out press to start the game. He also works the ball inside purposefully to establish that. Cane off the bench makes sense. Sure he's a better individual player, Cronin knows that and it's why Cane is in there in crunch time. But Cronin isn't going to change his game plan to accommodate one player because he's flashy and can score. We need 70 points to win. Whether Cane scores 30 or 0 is of little consequence if we score 70 and hold our opponent to 60. That's what Cronin wants and cares about.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

It's pretty simple why Cane doesn't start. Justin plays much better defense in Cronin's half court switching zone defense he runs...essentially he doesn't get lost and lose his man in it. Also, he takes care of the ball and isn't as careless with the ball with passes. And he doesn't go rogue on offense and put up I'll advised shots. Cane came out doing all three of these things and that will simply not sit well with Cronin. Cronin trusts the ball in Justin's hands and doesn't in Cane's. He tests Jenifer to run his system and game plan. He's found a role for Cane and Cane has been wildly successful giving a scoring boost off the bench when a change of pace is needed and also does well in the press when Cronin likes to sub in guys to all out full court press. Cronin cares more about running an offense and game plan and not making mistakes you can control than he does someone's ability to dribble around a defense and put up any shot he wants. We don't start slow because Cane isn't in there. Cane doesn't make Clark make bunnies as opposed to missing them. He doesn't make Evans come alive. He doesn't make Cumberland start making open threes as I posed to missing them. I, too, am getting tired of hearing this argument day after day, thread after thread and year after year. Cronin has a game plan and expects his players to run it, plain and simple. I heard an interview with Terry Nelson the other day asking about Justin and Cane and he said these same things. "Defense and taking care of the ball." Cronin doesn't full court all-out press to start the game. He also works the ball inside purposefully to establish that. Cane off the bench makes sense. Sure he's a better individual player, Cronin knows that and it's why Cane is in there in crunch time. But Cronin isn't going to change his game plan to accommodate one player because he's flashy and can score. We need 70 points to win. Whether Cane scores 30 or 0 is of little consequence if we score 70 and hold our opponent to 60. That's what Cronin wants and cares about.

Dave I agree but Cane has improved a bunch since the Buffalo game. He involves others,has improved taking care of the ball and his shot selection has been good. Because of all that Mick is giving him more minutes and with the slow starts he has opted to sub early with Cane for JJ recently. Cane is getting it and I think Mick's confidence in him is growing. Plus I think he really likes the flexibility of having him to provide a change of pace and be the scoring option when running with the subs.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

Cane has definitely improved and I think will continue to do so. Other than improved shooting I don't see Justin's game getting much better. Cane has a much higher ceiling. My point on him has always been one player is not above the team and we will never run an offense centered toward letting Cane or anybody creating offense for themselves.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Cane has definitely improved and I think will continue to do so. Other than improved shooting I don't see Justin's game getting much better. Cane has a much higher ceiling. My point on him has always been one player is not above the team and we will never run an offense centered toward letting Cane or anybody creating offense for themselves.

We might not run the halfcourt offense that way but watch Broome in the first 8-10 seconds of the clock. He has a license to create offense for himself if he can take advantage of a team not getting back. All he needs is a crease and he can lay it in, pull up, or draw a foul. That's something that is being encouraged I believe. And it makes a big difference for us over the course of the game.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

We might not run the halfcourt offense that way but watch Broome in the first 8-10 seconds of the clock. He has a license to create offense for himself if he can take advantage of a team not getting back. All he needs is a crease and he can lay it in, pull up, or draw a foul. That's something that is being encouraged I believe. And it makes a big difference for us over the course of the game.

Sure if he actually beats the defense down court. A few games ago he dribbled into four players on a fast break and luckily was bailed out with a foul trying to turn the corner behind the backboard. A good defense would've stopped that easy and Mick would bench anyone immediately for forcing something with no help and being outnumbered. All I'll say is you better make that shot when you do it.

With that said, I've seen him catch a defense sleeping and drive for an easy layup numerous times and he's good at finding it and looking for it. Seen Jenifer do it as well but not as much. But that opportunity comes along maybe once a game on average. Not a difference maker and not enough to count on to throw out a game plan.

I mean I get it, canes a better player. Literally no one would ever argue he isn't. The point I try to make is that Mick expects A, B and C from his players and Cane doesn't fully meet that criteria. Whether we agree with that is pointless, it's the reality that has always been and will always be.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

To add to my last thought, Cane is looking to score himself first which is why he'll try to catch a defense sleeping, whereas Jenifer is looking to get into the offense. Mick's been here ten years, who here thinks he prefers the former or the latter? Like I said we can argue Mick's strategy and game plan but it will never change. Also, most people don't really understand our defense when watching it to see who plays well in it and who doesn't, but Cane didn't catch on right away. Terry Nelson said as much the other day. This is the EXACT reason Kevin Johnson started over Cobb for so long and got so many minutes last year over Cumberland. People really seem to fail how much importance Mick places on being able to understand and play his defense the right way. When Cronin said KJ was his best defender it wasn't cause he could shut anyone down one on one cause frankly he couldn't. Clark and Evans could, but KJ was his best defender. Why? Cause he literally directed that defense. When he was in as opposed to being out of games the amount of points scored against us was night and day. I'm getting off topic, but my point is Mick runs a specific defense first then offense. He does this to control the controlables. If you fit this system you'll play and get minutes. He has plenty of scoring options with Clark, evans, Washington, Cumberland, he doesn't need Cane to go out there and do what he can do if it doesn't fit the team concept.

I'm not dogging Cane and he is learning and playing much smarter. He will continue to get rewarded for this. But I still see him and Cane going at it some in timeouts, etc. Cane simply hasn't fully bought into Cronin ball and that's why he doesn't start.

 

[Jon Rycek]

To add to my last thought, Cane is looking to score himself first which is why he'll try to catch a defense sleeping, whereas Jenifer is looking to get into the offense. Mick's been here ten years, who here thinks he prefers the former or the latter? Like I said we can argue Mick's strategy and game plan but it will never change. Also, most people don't really understand our defense when watching it to see who plays well in it and who doesn't, but Cane didn't catch on right away. Terry Nelson said as much the other day. This is the EXACT reason Kevin Johnson started over Cobb for so long and got so many minutes last year over Cumberland. People really seem to fail how much importance Mick places on being able to understand and play his defense the right way. When Cronin said KJ was his best defender it wasn't cause he could shut anyone down one on one cause frankly he couldn't. Clark and Evans could, but KJ was his best defender. Why? Cause he literally directed that defense. When he was in as opposed to being out of games the amount of points scored against us was night and day. I'm getting off topic, but my point is Mick runs a specific defense first then offense. He does this to control the controlables. If you fit this system you'll play and get minutes. He has plenty of scoring options with Clark, evans, Washington, Cumberland, he doesn't need Cane to go out there and do what he can do if it doesn't fit the team concept.

I'm not dogging Cane and he is learning and playing much smarter. He will continue to get rewarded for this. But I still see him and Cane going at it some in timeouts, etc. Cane simply hasn't fully bought into Cronin ball and that's why he doesn't start.

Well one, that's to say coaches can't change. And I think mick has already proven he is willing to and is changing. He understands what he needs to do to take it to the next level, and he is doing it. He didn't bring broome in to just run an offense. He brought him into score. Didn't broome have sox assists the other night? Not sure how he is just looking to score himself. Sure if he sees an opening he's gonna go for it, but he is certainly willing to pass the ball and play within the offense too.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Sure if he actually beats the defense down court. A few games ago he dribbled into four players on a fast break and luckily was bailed out with a foul trying to turn the corner behind the backboard. A good defense would've stopped that easy and Mick would bench anyone immediately for forcing something with no help and being outnumbered. All I'll say is you better make that shot when you do it.

With that said, I've seen him catch a defense sleeping and drive for an easy layup numerous times and he's good at finding it and looking for it. Seen Jenifer do it as well but not as much. But that opportunity comes along maybe once a game on average. Not a difference maker and not enough to count on to throw out a game plan.

I mean I get it, canes a better player. Literally no one would ever argue he isn't. The point I try to make is that Mick expects A, B and C from his players and Cane doesn't fully meet that criteria. Whether we agree with that is pointless, it's the reality that has always been and will always be.

I'm beyond arguing the minutes split or anything like that. So that's not where I'm coming from.

I think your view of Cronin's handling og Broome is strict. I feel like it's loosening up more and more as he learns the structure of winning basketball at this level. And just the fact that Broome regularly pushes plays a bigger role than just the time or 2 he does get all the way to the hoop. He just draws so much attention from the defense. And it's not just Broome for that, but Evans and Cumberland too. The other day Evans pushed, it wasn't there, he circled back out to the 3 point line, confusion on a switch bc the guy who picked up Evans in transition wasn't his man, then boom Evans has a wide open 3. I don't care if something like that only happens once, it doesn't hurt to pull it back out and reset. Jenifer just doesn't have the size or agility for that to be part of what we try to accomplish when he's in.

Again, I'm not getting into the starting or slow start thing. I think you underestimate how valuable it can be to have a guy constantly pressuring the defense in transition and forcing them to be perfect every time. That threat can help our defensive rebounding too. It's more than just oh hey look we got 2 extra points one time.

 

[Jon Rycek]

This isn't punishment of some kind against broome for not "buying into the system." I just don't believe that one bit.