Kobe is Average.

[TheLivingLegend]

Tired of hearing about Volume Shooter and his greatness so Ill break it down for you slow brained folk.

Kobe broke into the league right when Jordan left. The media was desperately seeking for the next "MJ".

Lakers during there title runs: You take shaq out for injuries there record an average 12-11. Take Kobe out there record 25-7. LA had a better record without Kobe. Claim Bull? Thats fine, but if you watched them play, a selfish Kobe continually took poor shots as a young buck. Kobe playing through Shaq, was when it worked.

Kobe has underperformed significantly. How many great players have shot under 40 percent in the finals? Kobe has done it, not once, not twice, but 4 or 5 times.

Volume shooter is what he is. A volume shooter (Greatone knows all about taking 30 shots to score 30). Julius Erving shot .506 , Magic Johnson shot .520, Oscar Robertson shot 485, Larry Bird shot .496, and Michael Jordan shot .497 for their career. Kobe has also shot worse than the players playing today that will eventually make this list Dwyane Wade and LeBron James. Kobe around .455.

LA wins when Kobe doesn't shoot much. When Kobe shoots 21 or less shots the Lakers are 39-3. Show me the stat like that for Jordan? Wade? Lebron? There is not one..

Kobe is not a leader. Lebron gets everything he can out of a non talented team, does kobe? No Kobe would rather walk out on his team and demand to be traded.

Kobe clutch? Nope, not as clutch as some surrounding players in the league. Stats prove that as well. http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Want to compare and average player to a champion.
Michael Jordan:
16 seasons.
6 rings.
6 finals MVPs.
10 scoring titles.
1 defensive POY
5 MVPS

Volume Shooter:
13 seasons.
4 rings.
1 finals MVP.
2 scoring titles.
0 defensive POYs.
1 MVP.

Seems pretty average when compared to actual greatness...

 

[ImmortalIconForever]

Sadly, I must agree

 

[swg]

The league has changed. Hard to compare numbers when their prime is twenty years apart. The stars today are better, and there are more of them than when it was an aging Magic vs Jordan. There are more international players in the NBA now, and teams are better overall. Tougher competition for titles, rings, awards, etc.

Hell, every year you could pencil in the Lakers and Bulls/Celtics. Now, good luck choosing the western conf champion, and the east has no dominant team either.
Meaning: more parity than before.

 

[Kingsley Court]

Hell, every year you could pencil in the Lakers and Bulls/Celtics. Now, good luck choosing the western conf champion, and the east has no dominant team either.
Meaning: more parity than before.

Thank you. The NBA is a better league right now. How many times has Jordan won a ring without a top 5 player in the league on his team? How many times has Jordan won a ring without another NBA HOF on his team?

I would say Kobe has 1 ring right now where he does not have another NBA HOF, or another top player in the league on his team. Of course, I'm not saying Kobe is better then Jordan, but to think it was all Jordan is just dumb.

Jordan had some awesome talent on his team. When Jordan was gone, the Bulls won 55 games, Pippen, I believe, was second in MVP voting, as well as the MVP of the all star game. In fact, the year Jordan was gone, the Bulls had a first team all star, a 1st and 2nd all defensive team players and a second team all rookie player. The Bulls were a stacked team without Jordan.

 

[TheLivingLegend]

Are you DRUNK still!?! aha..

"The NBA is better now"
HOW! The dismissal of the hand check rule has RUINED the NBA. The league is extremely soft, which benefits Kobe directly...

This is not a Jordan Kobe debate. Simply saying Kobe is an average player in the history or the NBA.

 

[DontMissHim]

Living legend- The league is a lot better today then it ever was. With the addition of international players (Such as Dirk) the overall talent is much better then it ever was. I think if you take the best 15 players from each era its no question Kobe's era would win in a game. A quick look at Kobe's era starting 5 would look like: Shaq (one of the top 5 centers in the league) Duncan (will go down as the best 4 ever to play the game) Lebron-nuff said, Kobe and Chris Paul as a pg. Melo,Dirk,Wade,Howard all coming off the bench.

Also, its laughable you bring the "handcheck rule" helping Kobe when everyone knows MJ was the king of getting calls. Wasnt it KG that said "It felt like we were playing MJ out there" in regards to Durant getting to the foul line? MJ is the biggest benefactor of calls the league has ever seen.

Lastly- As you said Kobe has only 1 ring without Shaq (another super star talent). MJ had Scottie Pippen (top 50 NBA player of all time) and as Kingsley Court pointed out- Second in MVP voting when MJ was gone, MVP of the all star game. MJ also had a 1st and 2nd All Defense of team players on his team. So, The bulls have 2 of the top 3 players in the league, a 1st team all defensive player, a second team all defensive player and one of the best rebounders in the league and you want to claim Kobe had more around him with Shaq? Thats a joke right?

 

[Thegreatone]

The league is 10 times better now then it was.

 

[TheLivingLegend]

It amazes me how slow brained some of you folk are....

One. This is not a MJ Kobe debate.. This is simply stating Kobe is an average player in the historical sense of the NBA.

Two. You all provide ZERO facts to combat the straight facts that I presented.

I expected this.

 

[Kingsley Court]

It amazes me how slow brained some of you folk are....

One. This is not a MJ Kobe debate.. This is simply stating Kobe is an average player in the historical sense of the NBA.

Two. You all provide ZERO facts to combat the straight facts that I presented.

I expected this.

I simply compared him to MJ, and he has done something Jordan has never done.

We also thought the league was a much tougher league now then when MJ was in it, thus creating a difference in over all stats with Jordan and Kobe. Since you think Kobe is an average player, please tell me 15 players better then him in todays game. You aren't an average player in the NBA in "historical" sense if your a top five player in the league for 5+ years at least. Tell me, do you think that the NBA is so bad now, that being a top 5 player in it for 5 or more years equates to being an average player over all?

Do yourself, and everyone on this board a favor, think before you say sh!t

 

[DontMissHim]

It amazes me how slow brained some of you folk are....

One. This is not a MJ Kobe debate.. This is simply stating Kobe is an average player in the historical sense of the NBA.

Two. You all provide ZERO facts to combat the straight facts that I presented.

I expected this.

You asked for the Kobe MJ debate by bringing MJ up clown. You say how average he is compared to MJ-and then get shocked people start comparing the two? what exactly did you think would happen?

Anyways- stats that say he isnt average= 4 rings, 1 POY, 2 scoring titles. All while being on teams way less talented then MJ's teams. On the season alone-he has at least 6 game winners. At one point in the year he had more then the rest of the NBA combined-he is the most clutch player in the NBA today....oh and he has been playing injured the past 2 years.

On a side note (This has bugged me for awhile) Is MJ's switching hand in mid-air layup not the most overrated play in the history of the game? Someone please explaing to me why he had to do it?

No one is playing defense on him. why not just finger roll it in? Its clear he is too un-athletic to make the dunk. I have no idea why people think its such an amazing play...again there is no reason at all as to why he had to do it. I mean if a defender came for the block and he did it-great play. But nothing near that happened.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QggtFUkjcmg[/ame]

 

[TheShoeFits]

Kobe is getting old.

 

[TheLivingLegend]

Kobe sat last night because of a knee issue. Another sign of his old age the wear and tear is to much.

 

[ImmortalIconForever]

0-2 from the line with his team down 1 and 8 seconds, not good for V.S. or the Lakers

 

[swg]

Kobe has played a lot of games. I do think the NBA has way too many games, and it's stars suffer the consequences. With the NFL expanding games, look for more injuries as well, especially to guys who've been around.
I think Kobe is a darn good player, but comparing him to Lebron who is younger doesn't seem fair. Two different players, teams, and conferences.

He's a top 20 all-time player, and I would leave it at that.

 

[TheLivingLegend]

Jordan played in all 82 games 9 seasons in a much more physical NBA. Kobe needs to man up.

 

[Kingsley Court]

The same Jordan that got all the calls?

 

[ImmortalIconForever]

Jordan made free throws with 8 seconds left with his team down 1. Well, then again, Jordan's team were rarely losing, so it might be tough to find a time when Jordan was in that situation.

 

[swg]

Y'all are the Housewives of Cincinnati.

 

[DontMissHim]

Jordan made free throws with 8 seconds left with his team down 1. Well, then again, Jordan's team were rarely losing, so it might be tough to find a time when Jordan was in that situation.

Well right- The team was a 55 win team and had one of the top 3 players in the Associaiton without Jordan. Its to no ones surprise they were rarely losing. No team in the league has close to that good of team- only chance would be Wade and Lebron being on the same team next year.

Having said that- I think the young spurs teams- Lakers with Kobe and Shaq (maybe even last years team--so much hieght) and Celtics of a few years ago all would give Jordans bulls a great series. 6-7 games each-winning team is a toss up IMO.

 

[TheLivingLegend]

Well right- The team was a 55 win team and had one of the top 3 players in the Associaiton without Jordan. Its to no ones surprise they were rarely losing. No team in the league has close to that good of team- only chance would be Wade and Lebron being on the same team next year.

Having said that- I think the young spurs teams- Lakers with Kobe and Shaq (maybe even last years team--so much hieght) and Celtics of a few years ago all would give Jordans bulls a great series. 6-7 games each-winning team is a toss up IMO.

Your drunk.. No one is touching the bulls.

Your argument of having Pippen on the team is weak. Look at the list of NBA champions.. The celtics had 3 greats, the spurs had two, the heat had two blah blah blah. The difference lies here, Jordan was receiving all the doubles... Shaq was receiving all the doubles. It is what it is, Kobe is an average played with a ring.

"Lakers with Kobe and Shaq" - hmm cant seem to remember this, this must have been before Kobe bitched and demanded he be traded because he was #2 when he should have been thanking the big man.