Mississippi State

[cincrulz11]

i hope waite stops by sometime to let us know he made it through the day

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Thanks guys I made it home. Tired and a whole lot lighter in the wallet.

Jake i married a women 10 years younger then me. She drops me off at the front door of the mall or I don't go. Lol!!!

Shopping today was the price I paid to be able to watch the game in peace tomorrow.

 

[Jon Rycek]

Yes things would be a lot simpler if Cane was were we need him to be at this time. I was getting as bit nervous early in the season when I started to read things on BCJ that said JJ may challenge for the starting PG spot. I mean I think JJ's game has improved but my hopes were that Cane was far and away a better player. Cane may get there but right now with the wings not performing and him still adjusting I can see why Mick is starting JJ.

What is cane not doing? He's turning it over but we knew that he did that coming in. In his minutes he's bbeen very effective. His defense isn't the best but his scoring ability makes up for that.

 

[Jon Rycek]

I'm on the whole who cares if cane has some turnovers. Like hake said bowman had 6 in a big game, Cronin rips guys out after 1. Would he ever had that kind of game if he played for mick. I'll take 30 pts and 9 assists and 6 turnover any day. Cane can straight up play, simple as that. JJ is a good back up point, but other than being overly careful with the ball to the point it makes the offense stagnant sometimes there is nothing he does better than broome. Broome needs to be getting close to 30 minutes IMO, would say even more but hard when you're deep at guard, big games I could see using him for 35, him and Evans really should both be on the court for a majority of the game.

 

[justinhub2003]

I'm on the whole who cares if cane has some turnovers. Like hake said bowman had 6 in a big game, Cronin rips guys out after 1. Would he ever had that kind of game if he played for mick. I'll take 30 pts and 9 assists and 6 turnover any day. Cane can straight up play, simple as that. JJ is a good back up point, but other than being overly careful with the ball to the point it makes the offense stagnant sometimes there is nothing he does better than broome. Broome needs to be getting close to 30 minutes IMO, would say even more but hard when you're deep at guard, big games I could see using him for 35, him and Evans really should both be on the court for a majority of the game.

I can live with Broome turning it over a few times. But lately it’s been every one turning it over and you need a guy like Jenifer to protect the ball some.


Evans is turning the ball over 1.5x more than last year. Cumberland’s TO rate also increased.

Jenifer cut his TO rate by 33%.

We need the rest of the team to protect the ball so we are less affected if cane has a sloppy TO game

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

What is cane not doing? He's turning it over but we knew that he did that coming in. In his minutes he's bbeen very effective. His defense isn't the best but his scoring ability makes up for that.

Because we knew he turned it over at sacred heart means nothing to me. He also played many minutes at sacred heart as the off guard. A role he looks very comfortable at. Using him at both spots is not a bad thing. Especially considering Moore And Williams have struggled. With Cumberland not quite there yet having him play some wing is not a bad thing. JJ has turned the ball over 6 times while Cane has 22 turn overs in 2 more minutes of playing time.. like you I want him pushing the pace and directing the offense but he has to take better care of the ball. Hopefully he will develop into that kind of player.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Because we knew he turned it over at sacred heart means nothing to me. He also played many minutes at sacred heart as the off guard. A role he looks very comfortable at. Using him at both spots is not a bad thing. Especially considering Moore And Williams have struggled. With Cumberland not quite there yet having him play some wing is not a bad thing. JJ has turned the ball over 6 times while Cane has 22 turn overs in 2 more minutes of playing time.. like you I want him pushing the pace and directing the offense but he has to take better care of the ball. Hopefully he will develop into that kind of player.

As has been pointed out, half of Broome's TO come in 2 games...including 6 TO in his very first game. The last 5 games he has 16 AST/8 TO.

With Cumberland struggling, as you mention, we now have 2 starters not helping us a whole lot. But neither one gets pulled from the lineup like Broome did. Why?

 

[jacobkdoyle]

As has been pointed out, half of Broome's TO come in 2 games...including 6 TO in his very first game. The last 5 games he has 16 AST/8 TO.

With Cumberland struggling, as you mention, we now have 2 starters not helping us a whole lot. But neither one gets pulled from the lineup like Broome did. Why?

If Broome has a 2:1 AST/TO, shouldn't we be happy with that? If 1.6 TO is too much for a guy like him, then there really is officially no point in recruiting PGs who can score. Which is weird, bc Cronin talks about needing older guards in March all the time.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

As has been pointed out, half of Broome's TO come in 2 games...including 6 TO in his very first game. The last 5 games he has 16 AST/8 TO.

With Cumberland struggling, as you mention, we now have 2 starters not helping us a whole lot. But neither one gets pulled from the lineup like Broome did. Why?

coach obviously thought Broome was a better option on the wing if Cumberland struggled. He backs up PG and the wing as the first guy in at either spot. He gets good minutes and if his game improves he'll get more. Not really hard to figure. It's not a plot Jake. More then one way to skin a cat.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

As has been pointed out, half of Broome's TO come in 2 games...including 6 TO in his very first game. The last 5 games he has 16 AST/8 TO.

With Cumberland struggling, as you mention, we now have 2 starters not helping us a whole lot. But neither one gets pulled from the lineup like Broome did. Why?

Maybe Mick thinks the team as a whole will get a better looking shot with Jenifer facilitating things than Broome. Mick said in his last postgame he is relying on Clark, Evans and Washington to carry the load. He wants the ball in their hands. Maybe he thinks Jenifer does a better job than that than Broome.

A pg's job in our offense is to bring the ball up the court and get us into our half court set. Jenifer is better at protecting the ball should they press and is a better passer and sees the floor better. That's what Mick expects of him. When Cane comes in and his first pass is lazy, what is he showing coach? Again, I'm playing devils advocate here cause I'm tired of constantly reading how great we think Broome is and how garbage we think Jenifer is. Broome is a great individual scorer, no question, but Mick wants five guys working together. Mick wants the ball to go inside to Gary and Kyle and they either score in the paint or kick out to an open shooter or reset the offense. We don't have to like it or agree with it and I too can get frustrated with his offense, but that's what it is and will always be. When he says we'll go at a quicker pace, that just means get into the sets quicker and not dribble so much, not a run and gun offense. Mick wants a half court game so we can actually play defense because that's where our advantage comes. And I think he likes Broome to be instant offense off the bench when we are struggling and need to abandon the game plan. Vs. Mississippi State we had a comfortable lead and didn't need Broome. When he did get in, his first pass almost got picked off. They had two good bigs down low, Broome wasn't going to get to the rim vs. those guys, so what was he bringing to the table? Vs. Florida we jumped out to a 10-4 lead and he subbed out Jenifer for Broome and the lead was quickly lost. Now I'm not suggesting Broome is the reason we lost, but facts are facts. Mick wants to run the offense through Gary, Evans and Kyle. He wants them scoring. With those guys all capable of scoring, we don't need Broome to score. Simply put, I think Mick sees a bigger picture than us fans on the board see and understands how five players work together. I think he feels Jenifer works better with the rest of the starters than Broome and likes Broome as a scoring option later of and when needed. When Brooks and Scott get on the floor, you need more perimeter offense, thus Broome.


Now with all that said, I too feel Broome needs to get up to speed cause he's clearly a better scorer and if he can learn to work within the offense and cut down the careless passes and over penetrating at times then he makes the team better than Jenifer does. For us to win in March, a guy like Broome is essential unless we really become a wrecking crew inside and I don't see that happening.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Maybe Mick thinks the team as a whole will get a better looking shot with Jenifer facilitating things than Broome. Mick said in his last postgame he is relying on Clark, Evans and Washington to carry the load. He wants the ball in their hands. Maybe he thinks Jenifer does a better job than that than Broome.

A pg's job in our offense is to bring the ball up the court and get us into our half court set. Jenifer is better at protecting the ball should they press and is a better passer and sees the floor better. That's what Mick expects of him. When Cane comes in and his first pass is lazy, what is he showing coach? Again, I'm playing devils advocate here cause I'm tired of constantly reading how great we think Broome is and how garbage we think Jenifer is. Broome is a great individual scorer, no question, but Mick wants five guys working together. Mick wants the ball to go inside to Gary and Kyle and they either score in the paint or kick out to an open shooter or reset the offense. We don't have to like it or agree with it and I too can get frustrated with his offense, but that's what it is and will always be. When he says we'll go at a quicker pace, that just means get into the sets quicker and not dribble so much, not a run and gun offense. Mick wants a half court game so we can actually play defense because that's where our advantage comes. And I think he likes Broome to be instant offense off the bench when we are struggling and need to abandon the game plan. Vs. Mississippi State we had a comfortable lead and didn't need Broome. When he did get in, his first pass almost got picked off. They had two good bigs down low, Broome wasn't going to get to the rim vs. those guys, so what was he bringing to the table? Vs. Florida we jumped out to a 10-4 lead and he subbed out Jenifer for Broome and the lead was quickly lost. Now I'm not suggesting Broome is the reason we lost, but facts are facts. Mick wants to run the offense through Gary, Evans and Kyle. He wants them scoring. With those guys all capable of scoring, we don't need Broome to score. Simply put, I think Mick sees a bigger picture than us fans on the board see and understands how five players work together. I think he feels Jenifer works better with the rest of the starters than Broome and likes Broome as a scoring option later of and when needed. When Brooks and Scott get on the floor, you need more perimeter offense, thus Broome.


Now with all that said, I too feel Broome needs to get up to speed cause he's clearly a better scorer and if he can learn to work within the offense and cut down the careless passes and over penetrating at times then he makes the team better than Jenifer does. For us to win in March, a guy like Broome is essential unless we really become a wrecking crew inside and I don't see that happening.

I get where you're coming from. And I don't disagree about Jenifer getting us into the offense in the halfcourt. I don't think anyone is acting like Jenifer is garbage or is suggesting he shouldn't play. We all know he will. I just question how many minutes per game we can survive against the best competition by playing the slow halfcourt grinder style that we've all grown so accustomed to. I feel like we've seen that movie before and we know the ending.

I don't get how you can say Cronin is seeing a bigger picture by Broome being on the bench, and then say in March we'll need Broome as an essential part. That doesn't compute. Playing him at backup SG doesn't get us ready for March. Just like sitting for 17 minutes in the 1st half doesn't. I'm really not trying to kill the coach here, but it's so obvious that one player gives us more of the same, and one gives us something we haven't had in a LONG time.

I remember all of last year (and maybe the year before) we all argued whether Johnson should start over Cobb or over Cumberland. The #1 reason people were ok with Johnson is bc we needed someone to stop guards from dribble penetration. We had a Top 15 defense, and the one thing that killed us was a driving guard who could break down the defense. It led to all kinds of problems. And now we ourselves have one of those guards...but we don't start him, and we'd prefer to play him off the ball and have him run around like Reggie Miller to try to get touches. Just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

I get where you're coming from. And I don't disagree about Jenifer getting us into the offense in the halfcourt. I don't think anyone is acting like Jenifer is garbage or is suggesting he shouldn't play. We all know he will. I just question how many minutes per game we can survive against the best competition by playing the slow halfcourt grinder style that we've all grown so accustomed to. I feel like we've seen that movie before and we know the ending.

I don't get how you can say Cronin is seeing a bigger picture by Broome being on the bench, and then say in March we'll need Broome as an essential part. That doesn't compute. Playing him at backup SG doesn't get us ready for March. Just like sitting for 17 minutes in the 1st half doesn't. I'm really not trying to kill the coach here, but it's so obvious that one player gives us more of the same, and one gives us something we haven't had in a LONG time.

I remember all of last year (and maybe the year before) we all argued whether Johnson should start over Cobb or over Cumberland. The #1 reason people were ok with Johnson is bc we needed someone to stop guards from dribble penetration. We had a Top 15 defense, and the one thing that killed us was a driving guard who could break down the defense. It led to all kinds of problems. And now we ourselves have one of those guards...but we don't start him, and we'd prefer to play him off the ball and have him run around like Reggie Miller to try to get touches. Just doesn't make sense to me.

The bigger picture I'm referring to is how all five pieces work together to get the best shot selection. I think Broome needs to work himself into that equation is my point and I'm guessing mick doesn't think he is yet. I've read enough on here of us running screens and sets for Broome and let him dribble drive and draw the defense and the double teams and dish out, etc. etc. I'm saying other than a one shot type of thing at end of half or game or coming off a timeout, that isn't going to happen. We're not going to completely adjust our offense to let one guard run around selfish on offense. The best offenses pass the ball, not dribble the ball. Notre Dame used to kill us. That's why open shooters kill us. Why we play Bellarmine to prep every year. And KJ's defense is what kept teams from getting open looks, not stopping pent rating guards. KJ was just average one on one defense, he kept the team in line for switches and running Mick's tricky defense. But that's a separate issue.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

The bigger picture I'm referring to is how all five pieces work together to get the best shot selection. I think Broome needs to work himself into that equation is my point and I'm guessing mick doesn't think he is yet. I've read enough on here of us running screens and sets for Broome and let him dribble drive and draw the defense and the double teams and dish out, etc. etc. I'm saying other than a one shot type of thing at end of half or game or coming off a timeout, that isn't going to happen. We're not going to completely adjust our offense to let one guard run around selfish on offense. The best offenses pass the ball, not dribble the ball. Notre Dame used to kill us. That's why open shooters kill us. Why we play Bellarmine to prep every year. And KJ's defense is what kept teams from getting open looks, not stopping pent rating guards. KJ was just average one on one defense, he kept the team in line for switches and running Mick's tricky defense. But that's a separate issue.

I'm not saying screen for Broome 100% of the time and just call it an offense. But that should be a part of it. Evans would be out there too. So we'd have 2 guys who can get us moving and into things...plus the benefit of finding a few easier buckets along the way. I get that we want ball movement and playing as 5...but how is Broome supposed to adjust to that if he's on the bench? Idk. I just feel like everyone agrees that Broome gives us the highest ceiling. But I don't see him being used in a way that suggests he'll be leaned on at any point in big games/moments. And it feels like a huge waste.

 

[cincrulz11]

The best offenses pass the ball, not dribble the ball. Notre Dame used to kill us. That's why open shooters kill us.

do you know why they always killed us?


because they always had PG's we couldn't stay in front of. then we had to help defend. ND has great spacing, so when we helped they just passed it around to the open guy.


but it started with a PG that could penetrate. you dont get guys open like that passing the ball around for 20 seconds 30 feet from the hoop.

 

[cincrulz11]

i have said this before. watch good teams around the country and count the amount of times their PGs penetrate past the FT line. keep a tally. then count how often jenifer does it and count how often broome does it.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

do you know why they always killed us?


because they always had PG's we couldn't stay in front of. then we had to help defend. ND has great spacing, so when we helped they just passed it around to the open guy.


but it started with a PG that could penetrate. you dont get guys open like that passing the ball around for 20 seconds 30 feet from the hoop.

I don't remember Notre Dame ever having good dynamic point guards and our weak link being we couldn't stay in front of them. They got really ball inside to their bigs and passed out. And regardless, Cane's never shown anything to suggest he can distribute the ball to his teammates on a consistent basis to just completely confuse defenses and get his teammates points.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

i have said this before. watch good teams around the country and count the amount of times their PGs penetrate past the FT line. keep a tally. then count how often jenifer does it and count how often broome does it.

Cinc they may be a bit misleading. How turnovers occur during that penetration. How many result in scores. Efficiency with the ball is the key. Plus you have to balance the fact Cane is being used to back up Cumberland.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I don't remember Notre Dame ever having good dynamic point guards and our weak link being we couldn't stay in front of them. They got really ball inside to their bigs and passed out. And regardless, Cane's never shown anything to suggest he can distribute the ball to his teammates on a consistent basis to just completely confuse defenses and get his teammates points.

David rivers comes to mind but I'm old.lol!!!

 

[cincrulz11]

I don't remember Notre Dame ever having good dynamic point guards and our weak link being we couldn't stay in front of them. They got really ball inside to their bigs and passed out. And regardless, Cane's never shown anything to suggest he can distribute the ball to his teammates on a consistent basis to just completely confuse defenses and get his teammates points.

then you dont remember correctly. hansbrough was a very good PG, Jerian Grant was a great PG.

 

[cincrulz11]

Cinc they may be a bit misleading. How turnovers occur during that penetration. How many result in scores. Efficiency with the ball is the key. Plus you have to balance the fact Cane is being used to back up Cumberland.

its not misleading. the great ones can do it without turnovers. the good ones will turn it over sometimes.


how many turnovers are you willing to risk for open shots. there must be some balance there right? forcing guys to take a bunch of contested shots (which is what our offense does) with a low risk of turnovers can be worse than a few more turnovers but more open looks.


but TO's from out Pg's hasn't been an issue at all lately. its been everybody else.