OT: Anybody see Montrezl Harrell last night?

[L-T]

Two things:

1) Nobody is happy with JUST making the tournament. Do you think after that loss to Harvard last year, people were like "Oh well. At least we made it." No! We were very frustrated to see an early exit. But one game does not define a season. There was plenty to be proud of last year.

2) If you "just" make the tournament for 15 straight years, you're going to have some good teams and go on some runs. Don't make it sound like going to the big dance is nothing. We've make it 4 straight years. As long as this year isn't too much of a struggle, I don't think making it 8-10 straight years is at all out of the question. Maybe more. You do that, and you'll likely at minimum have an Elite Eight in there.

BN, whether you intended to or not, you just made a lot of my points. Well said!

The things you're attributing to me above have nothing to do with me. There are absolutely people on here who are absolutely happy with just making the tournament. Go back and read the posts. There are people who choose to diminish the program's stature from those years based solely on what happened in March. How soon people forget that when we reached 14 consecutive years of making the tournament, only one other program in all of college basketball could say the same. You're preaching to the choir BN.

Absolutely, I agree with you 500%. One game does not define a season. And, one game does not suddenly drop you from an elite level to very good. It was just a disappointing end to a fantastic season. There are many more factors that go into defining an elite program than what the team does or doesn't do in March. Winning it all is icing on the cake. We are all very aware of a lot of the horrendous bad luck that defined our team's performances in March.

Last year was a great season and more like what we should expect as the norm for our program, but it is time for a few of those runs you speak of. It's the missing piece of what is needed to get our fanbase re-energized, which will then help to get us to that next level of stature.

 

[bearcat jeff]

The current coach has the same single sweet 16 as the former coach had in his last 9 years. The only difference is the former coach was positioned better by his seedings which made the disappointments greater.

Can we please view this program as a whole and not just in a16 year time frame?

 

[Cataclysmo]

I agree. Sometimes I question our mentality. Mick tends to show too much respect for our opponents at times imo. I like having the attitude that we don't care who we play, we're going to go out and kill them.

Uh, go watch highlights of the Louisville game at the YUM center and try to tell me that SK, JJ, and Rubles weren't fired up out of their minds. They made T-shirts out of Justin Jackson's facial expressions when he was fired up.

 

[bearcat jeff]

If I go back in time I want to go back to national championship days. I am fine living in the present and seeing a bright future.

 

[L-T]

The current coach has the same single sweet 16 as the former coach had in his last 9 years. The only difference is the former coach was positioned better by his seedings which made the disappointments greater.

Can we please view this program as a whole and not just in a16 year time frame?

I believe that is exactly what I'm attempting to do by posting all the articles above. You're the one trying to diminish our stature by focusing on the failings of that era. You're a little picture guy. I'm a big picture guy. When you state over and over that the nation views Mick Cronin a lot better than our own fans, the same can be said for our program. The articles demonstrate that the nation very clearly veiws our program as elite. So, stop trying to convince everyone otherwise! Stop attempting to set the bar so low today. Set the bar and the expectations high where they belong and lets not be content with anything less. Let's not dimish one of our greatest eras so we can somehow substantiate where we are today. Let's recognize the greatness of our past and expect the same or more going forward.

 

[JasonS]

My head hurts. smh

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Uh, go watch highlights of the Louisville game at the YUM center and try to tell me that SK, JJ, and Rubles weren't fired up out of their minds. They made T-shirts out of Justin Jackson's facial expressions when he was fired up.

That isn't really what I meant...but regardless, UCalum08 set me straight...

 

[jacobkdoyle]

BN, whether you intended to or not, you just made a lot of my points. Well said!

The things you're attributing to me above have nothing to do with me. There are absolutely people on here who are absolutely happy with just making the tournament. Go back and read the posts. There are people who choose to diminish the program's stature from those years based solely on what happened in March. How soon people forget that when we reached 14 consecutive years of making the tournament, only one other program in all of college basketball could say the same. You're preaching to the choir BN.

Absolutely, I agree with you 500%. One game does not define a season. And, one game does not suddenly drop you from an elite level to very good. It was just a disappointing end to a fantastic season. There are many more factors that go into defining an elite program than what the team does or doesn't do in March. Winning it all is icing on the cake. We are all very aware of a lot of the horrendous bad luck that defined our team's performances in March.

Last year was a great season and more like what we should expect as the norm for our program, but it is time for a few of those runs you speak of. It's the missing piece of what is needed to get our fanbase re-energized, which will then help to get us to that next level of stature.

L-T, can you post something else to drive your point home? I'm not sure that any of us get it yet.

 

[Bearcatmatt]

It seems like this conversation comes up in many of the threads I've read here. I'm a new guy to these forums, but I've been a fan since I was a kid and still live in Cincy. I'm a product of the 80's, so all of my memories are of Huggins until now. Cincinnati was always the cream of the crop in the mid to late 90's. They consistently won their league and made the tourney with a chance to move on. That being said, I can't call Cincy an "elite program" the way I can point to North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, or Duke. Cincinnati does have a rich history, but the other programs I've mentioned have history and more recent success with deep runs in March. Within that barometer, I do think a top 15 ranking is probably still warranted.

Now on to another point - I'm shocked by the lack of pure shooters we seem to recruit. Defense isn't the end all of basketball. You need people to score. You need shooters to make 3's so your wings can attack the rim and to open floor spacing for the bigs posting up. If you want to have success in March, you need to advance to the second weekend. I'll be curious to see how Moore and Clark play against guys who are as big and athletic as they are, especially if we have limited offense from the perimeter. The VCU game should give us an idea of how our guards will be because that style of play is simply frantic if you're not ready for it.

As for Harrell, the kid is scary good. He can score and defend and has a constant motor...and now he can shoot a little.

 

[L-T]

It seems like this conversation comes up in many of the threads I've read here. I'm a new guy to these forums, but I've been a fan since I was a kid and still live in Cincy. I'm a product of the 80's, so all of my memories are of Huggins until now. Cincinnati was always the cream of the crop in the mid to late 90's. They consistently won their league and made the tourney with a chance to move on. That being said, I can't call Cincy an "elite program" the way I can point to North Carolina, Kentucky, Kansas, or Duke. Cincinnati does have a rich history, but the other programs I've mentioned have history and more recent success with deep runs in March. Within that barometer, I do think a top 15 ranking is probably still warranted.

Now on to another point - I'm shocked by the lack of pure shooters we seem to recruit. Defense isn't the end all of basketball. You need people to score. You need shooters to make 3's so your wings can attack the rim and to open floor spacing for the bigs posting up. If you want to have success in March, you need to advance to the second weekend. I'll be curious to see how Moore and Clark play against guys who are as big and athletic as they are, especially if we have limited offense from the perimeter. The VCU game should give us an idea of how our guards will be because that style of play is simply frantic if you're not ready for it.

As for Harrell, the kid is scary good. He can score and defend and has a constant motor...and now he can shoot a little.

Matt, if you're top 15 out of 335, that's pretty elite wouldn't you say. Let's not get an argument started about the different levels of elite.

Our lack of shooting has been discussed many times. We see so many teams around the country who have a number of very good shooters, yet we can't seem to get a single one. Quadri Moore posesses some good shooting skills, but it will be seen if Mick allows him out on the perimeter very much. Everyone else seems to be developing their outside shooting while they're still here. Nobody arrives here ready to light it up.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I have no issue with wanting this program to be the best in the country. I want them to win every game and when they don't I'm disappointed. Him stressing defense which has produced many wins isn't good enough. It's a smoke screen. They have given up on trying to run him down by comparing him to our past coach so they have taken to giving backhanded compliments. He is good but the fans don't come out,he should recruit better,the program isn't what it was, we aren't elite we are good.Mick can't win the big games.I sat there Friday night in the lower bowl until I finally had to say something to a group who had know knowledge of the game but where trying to run down the coach. That is one reason I would rather watch at home. I don't have to deal with idiots. Truth is we haven't been elite since the 60's if winning a title is the bar. I have to agree with L-T attendance is down. For many reasons, the biggest is that going to the games isn't the event it once was. Huggins persona had a lot to do with that. I used to love to watch him work the officials or when he pulled a guy you new in the third row of the upper deck he was unhappy. He was worth the price of admission. He was a draw himself. We won leagues and were the bad boys doing it. We were the Pistons of the college ranks. Many people enjoyed and miss that. Those days are gone. Mick is trying to create his own brand. I for one enjoy it and hope he is here a long time. He is from Cincinnati and wants to be here. UC is his dream job. The unfortunate circumstances he inherited the program under follow his every move. I'll be there We'd. To cheer the Cats on. I would hope if you are truly interested in helping take the program to the upper tier don't talk about what we are not but what we are becoming. Be part of the solution not the problem. Cincinnati fans are funny. They are passionate about their teams and always think they know more then the guy who is being paid to do the job.

 

[Bearcatmatt]

Matt, if you're top 15 out of 335, that's pretty elite wouldn't you say. Let's not get an argument started about the different levels of elite.

I'm happy with the program success, but you can't really compare Cincinnati to the other schools I've listed and say they're in the same category. They're not, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out. And for the record, I like Mick. A lot. He took a dead program and made us relevant again. He's made the NCAA tournament an annual expectation and that's certainly impressive after Huggins left (Andy Kennedy got screwed the one year we should have made the toruney field).

Our lack of shooting has been discussed many times. We see so many teams around the country who have a number of very good shooters, yet we can't seem to get a single one. Quadri Moore posesses some good shooting skills, but it will be seen if Mick allows him out on the perimeter very much. Everyone else seems to be developing their outside shooting while they're still here. Nobody arrives here ready to light it up.

Last year, UC's margin or error was so small. Every possession mattered in a ton of games because we couldn't produce points even when our D was excellent. Ken Pom ranked UC around 110th in Offensive Efficiency, but we had a top 10 Defense (it was 8th) and lost to Harvard because we couldn't score.

The year we beat Florida State, their Defense was ranked higher than ours (13th compared to 22nd) but we had a better offense (61st compared to 81st). Offense won out. In close games, it usually does. Since the NCAA has changed the rules on all the hand checking, it also means the sport is more geared towards the offensive player. You need to have both, but I'm just at a loss as to why we don't proactively recruit more players who are good scorers. Teams with guys who can make a shot and stretch defenses out are hard to beat. It was excruciating to watch teams bottle up on Kilpatrick last year simply because we had no one else that could score. Also, when you play teams who are going to zone UC (and some will have to because of our size) where will the offense come from?

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

MIck does recruit guys who can score they just chose to go elsewhere. He has been very close on a few.walker from UCONN was one. Trey Burke was another. At the end of the day you have to play with the guys you get. Expecting Mick to out recruit Calhoun or Izzo is a tall order. We'll get there.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I want to let this season play out a little before talking about the whole "we never have shooters" thing. Caupain was brought in to be a good distributor...that helps shooting. We brough in 5 new big guys to have an inside game...that helps shooting. Also brought in a backup PG known for his shooting ability in Cobb. And Moore draining a rhythm 3 on his first shot as a Bearcat is encouraging as well. As the rotation works itself out, it should become more clear to some that Mick has worked hard to address shooting.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I want to let this season play out a little before talking about the whole "we never have shooters" thing. Caupain was brought in to be a good distributor...that helps shooting. We brough in 5 new big guys to have an inside game...that helps shooting. Also brought in a backup PG known for his shooting ability in Cobb. And Moore draining a rhythm 3 on his first shot as a Bearcat is encouraging as well. As the rotation works itself out, it should become more clear to some that Mick has worked hard to address shooting.

Jacob the bottom line is Mick does recruit shooters. For whatever reason they have chosen to go elsewhere. As his reputation grows his ability to land the more high profile players will improve. Until then he'll continue to coach them up and win with the players he has gotten.

 

[L-T]

I'm happy with the program success, but you can't really compare Cincinnati to the other schools I've listed and say they're in the same category. They're not, and there's nothing wrong with pointing that out. And for the record, I like Mick. A lot. He took a dead program and made us relevant again. He's made the NCAA tournament an annual expectation and that's certainly impressive after Huggins left (Andy Kennedy got screwed the one year we should have made the toruney field).



Last year, UC's margin or error was so small. Every possession mattered in a ton of games because we couldn't produce points even when our D was excellent. Ken Pom ranked UC around 110th in Offensive Efficiency, but we had a top 10 Defense (it was 8th) and lost to Harvard because we couldn't score.

The year we beat Florida State, their Defense was ranked higher than ours (13th compared to 22nd) but we had a better offense (61st compared to 81st). Offense won out. In close games, it usually does. Since the NCAA has changed the rules on all the hand checking, it also means the sport is more geared towards the offensive player. You need to have both, but I'm just at a loss as to why we don't proactively recruit more players who are good scorers. Teams with guys who can make a shot and stretch defenses out are hard to beat. It was excruciating to watch teams bottle up on Kilpatrick last year simply because we had no one else that could score. Also, when you play teams who are going to zone UC (and some will have to because of our size) where will the offense come from?

Matt, there's not a damn thing I can do about us being considered an elite program. I did not author any of the articles above. There are many more just like those. Why would you want to believe that we're not worthy when the whole nation says we are and the university says we are?

I agree with you. If you're a one dimensional program, you'll rarely advance far in the tournament. Even in the former era, we were known for our defense. But, in only one of the 14 years did we average less than 73 points a game, so we had more balance. I still think this years team will prove to be an upgrade offensively. But, it looks like there will be growing pains before we find our mojo. Clark finally gave us a glimpse the other night. When he gets comfortable, things may really open up.

 

[UCalum08]

How many times/ways can we debate and discuss the same topic. I value all your opinions but holy hell, you can only beat a dead horse once.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

How many times/ways can we debate and discuss the same topic. I value all your opinions but holy hell, you can only beat a dead horse once.

went to Mio's Friday thought I would see you there. You going to game Wed.?