Red and Black Scrimmage

[waterhead]

Ill start from the bottom and work up. Broome is the guy thats fearless. He's laid back sure, but not in the laid back passive way Caupain was. He's laid back cocky, you can see it in the way he walks and handles himself. This is a good thing.


The rest I just completely disagree with. Cumberland got 8 points a game last year and his game was absolutely college ready. Williams' isn't, not to mention there aren't 20 minutes of PT for the back up guard this year. Cumberland is clearly the better player between the two where last year KJ vs Cumberland wasn't a clear win for KJ (or a win at all but thats an old convo).


If Mick cannot live with Broome's poor decision making at time that means we have to go with Jenifer. Jenifer is not where Caupain was as a player, so if our team wants to be better, it has to be because Broome gives us something we haven't had in the past. I think it's slightly concerning how much Mick talks up Jenifer and the fact that they even split time with the top group. It shouldn't be a contest between the 2.

I agree on Cane. Not sure about Williams. He led team black in points although with a lot of turnovers. His athleticism is college ready and he's not frail. He scored quite a few points going to the bucket and finishing around the rim and he looked controlled doing it on several occasions. My grandma can camp out for 3's all day. We have seen many wings come through who have had no idea on how to get from the perimeter to the bucket or in the lane. Williams excels at it. I am guessing he can knock down 1 of 3 three pointers or so...even with bad form.

I could see him getting about 15 mpg and 5-6 ppg if he controls the turnovers.

 

[juckerrules]

The teams Jenifer lead scored a combined 84 points vs cane’s team scoring 77.

It’s just one match up, but that can’t be overlooked.

Cane is always going to put up better numbers but who do I trust to protect the ball? Easily Jenifer at this point. Cane threw a lazy pass that was picked off by Keith for an easy dunk. He can’t do that in the game. I have no doubt cane is the better player, but Jenifer is working his ass off and I think he deserves some credit and some run on this team

Agree that JJ is better at protecting the ball....his assist/turnover last year was phenomonal. Cane will turn the ball over more often, I'm quite sure. Last year, JJ turned it over 2.2 times/100 possessions...Cane 5.73
Assists: JJ 9.4...Cane 4.3
These are significant differences, albeit playing for different teams & against different competition
Weigh that against points/100 possessions: JJ 13.5, CB 34.3...let's say JJ's extra assists are worth12 pts. (a couple assists maybe are 3's) & let's say Cane's increased turnovers produce maybe 4 points on the other end (they don't always score)
That makes the overall effect around + 5 in favor of Cane
Given the fact that many of his points come from driving the basket, I gotta think 8.5 ft attempts vs. JJ's 3.1 attempts is important - esp. since JJ has shown no ability to hit them.
Gotta think Cane gets the bulk of the minutes in the long run, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's around 50-50 early in the year at least.
Both are capable & both are necessary.

 

[waterhead]

Agree that JJ is better at protecting the ball....his assist/turnover last year was phenomonal. Cane will turn the ball over more often, I'm quite sure. Last year, JJ turned it over 2.2 times/100 possessions...Cane 5.73
Assists: JJ 9.4...Cane 4.3
These are significant differences, albeit playing for different teams & against different competition
Weigh that against points/100 possessions: JJ 13.5, CB 34.3...let's say JJ's extra assists are worth12 pts. (a couple assists maybe are 3's) & let's say Cane's increased turnovers produce maybe 4 points on the other end (they don't always score)
That makes the overall effect around + 5 in favor of Cane
Given the fact that many of his points come from driving the basket, I gotta think 8.5 ft attempts vs. JJ's 3.1 attempts is important - esp. since JJ has shown no ability to hit them.
Gotta think Cane gets the bulk of the minutes in the long run, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's around 50-50 early in the year at least.
Both are capable & both are necessary.

I agree...we need to be rooting on both of them really.

On another note much has been said that Cane may not find the need to force things as much as he used to when some of his turnovers came from trying to do too much at SH. Not to mention Cane must be supremely aware of Cronin's turnover allergies.

I could see Cane averaging 1 more turnover per 40 minutes but I don't think that's going to amount to much with the rest of what he brings to the table.

 

[waterhead]

The teams Jenifer lead scored a combined 84 points vs cane’s team scoring 77.

It’s just one match up, but that can’t be overlooked.

Cane is always going to put up better numbers but who do I trust to protect the ball? Easily Jenifer at this point. Cane threw a lazy pass that was picked off by Keith for an easy dunk. He can’t do that in the game. I have no doubt cane is the better player, but Jenifer is working his ass off and I think he deserves some credit and some run on this team

Yah...but...

Cane had 12 of his 20 points and 7 of his 10 assists with team red. If anything we could look at this as Cane being a better fit with the starters and Justin being a better fit for the subs.

 

[rogerOH]

Our last and only current players in the NBA are from New York. Keith Williams was MVP of the NYC Catholic league ( Brooklyn/Queens division ) when you are the best player from there I don't think there is any question you will contribute immediately.

 

[rogerOH]

When you look at Trevor Moore it is hard to believe he is a year younger than K.W. and 2 years younger than M.D. and E.N.

 

[juckerrules]

Yah...but...

Cane had 12 of his 20 points and 7 of his 10 assists with team red. If anything we could look at this as Cane being a better fit with the starters and Justin being a better fit for the subs.

Also, the red team 1st half shot 44.2% with JJ...2nd half shot 60.6% with Cane
Black went from 39.4 to 43.6 - everybody warmed up as the game went on..can't draw anything from percentages

 

[cincrulz11]

Also, the red team 1st half shot 44.2% with JJ...2nd half shot 60.6% with Cane
Black went from 39.4 to 43.6 - everybody warmed up as the game went on..can't draw anything from percentages

can't draw anything from stats in a game like that imo. especially cause the last 12 minutes or so they were just playing open gym basically with very little effort on defense.


no doubt the team is more difficult to guard with cane. lets not act like he turned it over a ton, him and JJ had the same amount of turnovers (but again they should have 0 in a game like that).


the cane pick and roll is going to be extremely difficult to guard. bigs had a awful time trying to hedge with his speed, it was a layup for him or wash every time. in real games the help defender will slide down and we should have wide open corner 3s. you dont get that with JJ, hes not nearly as explosive on the drive. his pick and rolls looked like caupains, all pick and no roll, you just reset the offense again.

 

[cincrulz11]

Not sure about Williams. He led team black in points although with a lot of turnovers. His athleticism is college ready and he's not frail. He scored quite a few points going to the bucket and finishing around the rim and he looked controlled doing it on several occasions. My grandma can camp out for 3's all day. We have seen many wings come through who have had no idea on how to get from the perimeter to the bucket or in the lane. Williams excels at it. I am guessing he can knock down 1 of 3 three pointers or so...even with bad form.

I could see him getting about 15 mpg and 5-6 ppg if he controls the turnovers.

I agree his body is college ready, and his athleticism is too, but he didn't pop to me the way Evans and Cumberland did right off the bat. I think Williams has to grow into the college game more. 20 points on 21 shots isn't what anybody is looking for.


I think he's going to be a heck of a player, will just take a bit of time. Funny thing was it seemed to me Moore had the more college ready game but just isn't as talented. Extremely quick release, knew where to go on the court and how to get his shot. Such a silky smooth release for Moore. His shooting % in that game isn't going to reflect the type of shooter he is.

Honestly I think Williams is in a perfect spot, the team wont need 20 minutes out of him like we needed out of Cumberland last year but he could probably do it occasionally.

 

[waterhead]

I agree his body is college ready, and his athleticism is too, but he didn't pop to me the way Evans and Cumberland did right off the bat. I think Williams has to grow into the college game more. 20 points on 21 shots isn't what anybody is looking for.


I think he's going to be a heck of a player, will just take a bit of time. Funny thing was it seemed to me Moore had the more college ready game but just isn't as talented. Extremely quick release, knew where to go on the court and how to get his shot. Such a silky smooth release for Moore. His shooting % in that game isn't going to reflect the type of shooter he is.

Honestly I think Williams is in a perfect spot, the team wont need 20 minutes out of him like we needed out of Cumberland last year but he could probably do it occasionally.

I'm not sure I follow about 20 points on 21 shots is not what anyone is looking for?

As long as it doesn't come with 6 turnovers I will take that ratio from a frosh. He shot 33 percent from 3 and 43 percent from the floor. Better numbers than 2 of our starters last year.

If you are saying we don't need him taking 21 shots I agree...but I have seen much much much worse shooting nights than 9 of 21 and 2 of 6 from deep.

 

[ZCat]

I feel like Jenifer has embraced the pure PG role. He desperately wants to get everyone involved and Cronin and Washington have both talked about passing and the importance of ball movement. Seeing the 84-77 number doesn't shock me at this point.

Couldn't help but laugh when u said Washington and pass in the same sentence.

 

[juckerrules]

I'm not sure I follow about 20 points on 21 shots is not what anyone is looking for?

As long as it doesn't come with 6 turnovers I will take that ratio from a frosh. He shot 33 percent from 3 and 43 percent from the floor. Better numbers than 2 of our starters last year.

If you are saying we don't need him taking 21 shots I agree...but I have seen much much much worse shooting nights than 9 of 21 and 2 of 6 from deep.

For purposes of comparison:
Last year - Cumberland 201 shots resulted in 231 points

 

[waterhead]

For purposes of comparison:
Last year - Cumberland 201 shots resulted in 231 points

We have seen similar or lower career numbers from many starting wings/guards over the years. KJ, Dixon, Caupain, Sanders, Thomas, Guyn, etc. If we can get slightly better numbers off the bench from a frosh...than many or most of our starting wings over the years... I will take it.

Referring to Williams numbers in scrimmage

 

[cincrulz11]

For purposes of comparison:
Last year - Cumberland 201 shots resulted in 231 points

those 201 shots came with 292 points, thats a huge difference.



the game isn't about the number of points its about being efficient as a player. 20 points on 21 shots with 6 turnovers and 0 assists is not a very good game at all.

 

[cincrulz11]

Like I've said before stats from a game like that don't really mean anything to me but just in a general sense more shots taken than points scored is really bad. Even KJ in all his seasons here always managed to have more points than shots attempted and he was a 37% career shooter from the floor.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

those 201 shots came with 292 points, thats a huge difference.



the game isn't about the number of points its about being efficient as a player. 20 points on 21 shots with 6 turnovers and 0 assists is not a very good game at all.

Yeah this shouldn't even be a conversation.

 

[cincrulz11]

Yeah this shouldn't even be a conversation.

Yeah I think people took what I said towards Williams when I just meant in a general sense. The game is all about being efficient, taking good, high percentage shots as often as possible.


Our efficiency as a team is why the computers love us coming into this year. From espn

"Part of BPI's calculation considers the minute-weighted efficiency of the returning players. And it turns out that Cincinnati has the enviable combination of a high percentage of returning minutes and sneaky efficiency from those returning players. The Bearcats' returning players' offensive rating, adjusted for opponents and minute-weighted, ranked 13th best in the nation and their defense was 17th-best. That kind of production, from players like F Gary Clark and G/F Jacob Evans, on both ends of the court is a good sign for the Bearcats' 2017-2018 prospects."

 

[waterhead]

Like I've said before stats from a game like that don't really mean anything to me but just in a general sense more shots taken than points scored is really bad. Even KJ in all his seasons here always managed to have more points than shots attempted and he was a 37% career shooter from the floor.

I was trying hard to figure this one out. Normally if you take that many shots especially 15 two pointers you are going to pick up some extra points from FT's. Somehow Williams didn't attempt any FT's. If he goes to the line 2 or 3 times there is your difference.

As I mentioned his FG% wasn't horrible 43% and 33% from 3 is also not horrible. I was trying to figure out how KJ could shoot a career average of 37% from the field and 32% from 3 (both lower %'s) and somehow score more points than shots. Add in the FT's and there you have it. My bad.