Team Thoughts

[ready2go]

I know we have talked about this over several threads but I wanted to share my thoughts without answering to a previous post.

The first thing that stands out to me is how differently this team is playing now as opposed to early in the season. The depth they had has become useless and goes unused. The length and athleticism that could wear teams down and force turnovers is gone. On offense the team milks the clock then tries a one on one move that results in a forced, bad shot. Since Dec. 15th this team has scored 70points 3 times against teams not named Maryland Eastern Shore or Directional U., and one of those games took overtime to get there.

What I see is a staff that has failed to make adjustments and play to the team's strengths, or a team that absolutely refuses to do what the coaches ask on the floor. Either way it's bad. I see a team fundamentally flawed, which has a hard time executing the simpliest of basketball's basic moves, such as screens.

I see a team with no floor leader, a star player unwilling to embrace his role and who lacks the toughness to take the ball to the basket. A team with no defined roles for the players or the bench. Substitutions aren't targeted with players x, y and z coming in, they are simply an attempt to catch lightening in a bottle because their roles aren't defined and their skills developed by giving them consistent playing time. You can't develop a back up point guard playing him 6-7 minutes a game. You can't develop a bench playing a guy 19 minutes one game and them having him sit the next 3 because "he doesn't fit the match ups." You develop your team and make others make the adjustments. Your strengths versus theirs and who does a better job limiting that teams strengths wins.

I have been a Mick Cronin supporter, and I still am, but I lay this squarely at the feet of him and his staff. Yancy Gates never developed low post moves and neither has any other big that has come here under Mick Cronin. That tells a story. Gates was good when he could hit short range jumpers and use his size on put backs. Not so much in isolation. That is coaching and development pure and simple.

They fail to develop existing skills or recruit guys with the skills they need, instead they focus on recruiting athletes. Which is fine if you play to their strengths, not so much in the halfcourt they have settled into. You can't recruit guys to play a certain style and then not play that way and expect them to be successful outside of their skill set.

Players are scared to shoot, are timid when they pass, and look to the bench after every mistake they make. That tells me they are more worried about a coaches reaction to something than simply playing basketball. Not good.

I said a couple seasons ago that Mick needed to revamp this staff with teachers or spend more time on player development as it pertains to shooting, dribbling, etc.. I'm not talking about individual instructions on what the player needs to work on in the offseason, I'm talking hands on teaching, and shooting machines for repetition. The ability to pull up and hit a mid-range shot or a free throw. Recruiting is huge, but it means nothing if you can't develop what you bring in.

Mick prepared to play a certain way in the offseason and now has stopped employing that style. He and his staff have taken away from themselves the strengths they have to use against opponents. I completely hold the players accountable for their part, but where we are now is on the head coach and staff. What I have seen in the last 9-10 games is Mick trying to will this team to win other than making adjustments to help them win. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. A good coach knows when something has to give. Mick change begins at the top and you need to make some and make them NOW!

Good post

I may have blown things out of proportion , but remember when we were winning and I had complaints????

This is why. We were playing scrubs and still had those same habbits. We stood around jacking up wide open 3's vs inferior opponents. Some things we did well, but for the most part, it was the same. We did little transition. We had little movement. We had little screening. We had little penetration. The difference....we hit 3's with no hands in the face.

NOW we are playing the big dogs and we can't do anything. Guys are scared to make mistakes. We don't push the ball. We don't have a bench. We can't hit contested shots. We don't penetrate (when we do, we pick up our dribble in the lane). We can't rebound. We get pushed around.

As for recruiting.... The Cats of old always had a PG, Shooter, Slasher and Big

PG(Logan, Satterfield)
Shooter(Field and Nick Williams, Baker, Durden, Burton)
Slasher(White, Michael, McCelroy, Levett)
Big(Martin, Hicks, Max, Little)

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Waite, your points seem to be in contradiction of each other. Last week it was that we can't win because we don't have good bigs and now it's because Cash is hurt. You say our guards struggle because the other team doesn't have to pay attention to our bigs but you also say we'd be a sweet 16 team with a healthy Cash. You say that Mick wants to run a slow pace offense yet all Mick talked about before the season was pressure and an uptempo style of play. I remember a quote from Cashmere in the Enquirer prior to the season where he talked about the goal in practice was to have the ball in bounded in 1 second or less and constantly be running the floor on offense. Mick said himself 10 minutes before the UConn game that the goal in that game was to increase the number of possessions on offense and take advantage of UConn's lack of depth. Well we wound up playing the exact opposite style of ball in that game which tells me that we are not imposing our will on the other team. We are playing into the hands of what our opponents want us to do. That is all about coaching, that's what coaches do. Coaches come up with game plans and schemes to put their players in the best situation to win and Mick has been getting out coached. There is no other way around that statement, it is a fact.

Jeff is spot on in his analysis, this team is not playing the style of basketball Mick preached about in the offseason. This is a good team and we do have good players, at one point we were the #8 team in the country. We got into the Big East and re. we cavedfell o. This season is on Mick, if we don't make the NCAA's it's a complete and it's on Mick.

Jeff is also spot on about player development. We failed miserably at developing tester Gates and one of my biggest worries is that if Mick doesn't change what he's doing we're going to see the same with any and all future recruits that come thru Mick's program.

ucbearcat,I think you may be taking things a bit out of context. First when cash was playing well we were 16-3 and playing much better even without a inside presence. With cash's production having having fallen off we can't pull out the close ones anymore. Still have same issues with our bigs but problem is now compounded. Mick has realized we don't have the players to play that style. As always the coach gets to much blame and not enough credit. Mick will survive and the program will move forward. Would love to see cash get hot and the cats go on a run. We were never a great team but we are Better than we are playing.

 

[TheLongHaul]

ucbearcat,I think you may be taking things a bit out of context. First when cash was playing well we were 16-3 and playing much better even without a inside presence. With cash's production having having fallen off we can't pull out the close ones anymore. Still have same issues with our bigs but problem is now compounded. Mick has realized we don't have the players to play that style. As always the coach gets to much blame and not enough credit. Mick will survive and the program will move forward. Would love to see cash get hot and the cats go on a run. We were never a great team but we are Better than we are playing.

You keep referencing the 16-3 (or maybe Bearcat04 does) but keep ignoring that they weren't playing that well in recent games prior to Cash's injury. The issues that existed before existed prior to Cash's injury. Now they are just that much worse. UC actually won, and played fairly well, in the one game Cash was out.

You also keep mentioning the lack of players to play that style but you apparently think they have the players that can isolate their man one on one and take them to the hoop. How is that style working?

 

[Bearcat04]

You keep referencing the 16-3 (or maybe Bearcat04 does) but keep ignoring that they weren't playing that well in recent games prior to Cash's injury. The issues that existed before existed prior to Cash's injury. Now they are just that much worse. UC actually won, and played fairly well, in the one game Cash was out.

You also keep mentioning the lack of players to play that style but you apparently think they have the players that can isolate their man one on one and take them to the hoop. How is that style working?

It also took a career game to win that one (Marquette). I don't think we can rely on that every game. Not playing well or not, but we were still a top 4/5 seed at that time. I'm conceding every point about the struggles of this team even with a healthy Cash. At the same time, do you think with a healthy Cash we'd have won more than 3 games in our last 9? We've almost won a few more with him shooting 25%.

 

[Bearcat04]

Good post

I may have blown things out of proportion , but remember when we were winning and I had complaints????

This is why. We were playing scrubs and still had those same habbits. We stood around jacking up wide open 3's vs inferior opponents. Some things we did well, but for the most part, it was the same. We did little transition. We had little movement. We had little screening. We had little penetration. The difference....we hit 3's with no hands in the face.

NOW we are playing the big dogs and we can't do anything. Guys are scared to make mistakes. We don't push the ball. We don't have a bench. We can't hit contested shots. We don't penetrate (when we do, we pick up our dribble in the lane). We can't rebound. We get pushed around.

As for recruiting.... The Cats of old always had a PG, Shooter, Slasher and Big

PG(Logan, Satterfield)
Shooter(Field and Nick Williams, Baker, Durden, Burton)
Slasher(White, Michael, McCelroy, Levett)
Big(Martin, Hicks, Max, Little)

Ready, I actually think you are a great for this board, because you bring a different perspective that makes for great debate. I give you full credit for pointing out the early warning signs for this team. It's not always easy to critique when we are winning.

However, I can't let you get away with waxing nostalgic about the former recruits while condemning the current bunch. Of those "Cats of old" only Burton and Levett have tasted more tournament success than the current starters. Also, none of the players that you listed have beaten a higher seeded team in the tournament like last year's team did. I love the players and teams of old. It's going to be hard for Mick to top some of the love for those teams, but at the same time we can't ignore the failures of most of those teams. Way too many wet blankets to look back and say these are the type of players we need to recruit to be even more successful.

 

[TheLongHaul]

It also took a career game to win that one (Marquette). I don't think we can rely on that every game. Not playing well or not, but we were still a top 4/5 seed at that time. I'm conceding every point about the struggles of this team even with a healthy Cash. At the same time, do you think with a healthy Cash we'd have won more than 3 games in our last 9? We've almost won a few more with him shooting 25%.

I would like to think so but I can't say that with too much confidence.

 

[UCBearcats]

ucbearcat,I think you may be taking things a bit out of context. First when cash was playing well we were 16-3 and playing much better even without a inside presence. With cash's production having having fallen off we can't pull out the close ones anymore. Still have same issues with our bigs but problem is now compounded. Mick has realized we don't have the players to play that style. As always the coach gets to much blame and not enough credit. Mick will survive and the program will move forward. Would love to see cash get hot and the cats go on a run. We were never a great team but we are Better than we are playing.

Listen Waite, I understand that Mick wants to play a certain style of basketball that is heavily reliant on defense and rebounding. I get that if you play that type of game it makes sense to slow down on offense and limit the other team's possessions. I'm simply pointing out that what Mick is doing is in contradiction with what he said he was going to do.

I understand the type of game that Mick is trying to play but if you want to play this type of game successfully you HAVE to have a big man that can score in the paint (or a guy like Kemba Walker who can score from wherever). The fact that Mick doesn't have that big man is on him. Where is that big man looking into the future?? We had that guy when Yancy was here but we never realized his potential because we couldn't figure out a way to give him the ball in the paint. People complained that Yancy was a soft player and this and that but that is on coaching. Yancy needed someone to teach him how to be a power player and he didn't receive that teaching. Mick's offensive systems are very reminiscent of Huggins but the thing that separated Huggs teams from Mick's is that we always had a good big man and we fed them the ball around the hoop consistently.

At some point Mick needs to realize that you have to score points. The answer to beating UConn or New Mexico or St. John's or Syracuse wasn't play better defense or get more rebounds. We played great D in all of those games. The answer to winning was SCORE MORE POINTS. Especially at the end of games when we can't execute, don't you think it would be nice to have some clue on offense what we're doing in the final 3 minutes of a game? Have a big man developed that can get an easy bucket down low or get to the line?

So Mick has a decision to make, continue to do what we're doing and continue to get the same results because you don't have the proper personnel to pull it off (definition of insanity). Or make some changes and figure out a way to win games with HIS PLAYERS.

Please, everyone, stop telling me that Mick doesn't have a big man and that's not his fault. Of course it's his fault, he failed to develop Yancy and he's failed to recruit his replacement and looking forward we still don't have a solid big in the works. Oh and before anyone decides to comment about Kelvin Gaines you can save it, Gaines is terrible. Gaines is going to lose his scholarship next season anyways if all of our incoming freshmen are eligible.

 

[rallie25]

Beside Danny, Corie and Kenyon what other big man did Huggs have? Kenyon had more of a heart then Yancy. Yancy never fought for postion in the post and he rather be more finesse then power. He was like that through high School and college.

 

[UCBearcats]

Beside Danny, Corie and Kenyon what other big man did Huggs have? Kenyon had more of a heart then Yancy. Yancy never fought for postion in the post and he rather be more finesse then power. He was like that through high School and college.

Maxiell??? Hicks??? Big man doesn't have to mean tall. Huggins took guys like K Mart and Hicks who were terrible when they arrived at UC and developed them into stars. Yancy came in the total package with the size and finesse game you dream about in a big man and was never taught to be tough or how to play under the basket and inside the paint.

I don't even like talking about Huggs and Mick in the same breath, and before this spirals out of control and people tell me to quit living in the past let me say that I am not trying to compare Mick to Huggins. Just pointing out they run similar offenses which makes sense because Mick learned under Huggs.

 

[rallie25]

Thanks! I did forget about Max and Hicks. All the above names are more defense minded bigs except for Danny. He in my memory was the only go to big we had. Doring his years we didn't have a good pg. Yancy had all the tools but no drive. I don't know what type of offense you can rum with this team. They make so many bone head plays, I don't a motion offense can work. I hope he figures out something.

 

[UCBearcats]

Thanks! I did forget about Max and Hicks. All the above names are more defense minded bigs except for Danny. He in my memory was the only go to big we had. Doring his years we didn't have a good pg. Yancy had all the tools but no drive. I don't know what type of offense you can rum with this team. They make so many bone head plays, I don't a motion offense can work. I hope he figures out something.

Thats kind of my point. Mick wants to instill defense and rebounding as the backbone of his teams which is fine but he recruits long, athletic wing players. Long athletic wing players might be good for pressuring on defense and getting deflections but they don't really work in the slow it down offense that he likes to run. Beyond that his slow it down offense is terrible, really he has no offense at all.

With the types of players Mick has on his roster he'd be best suited to play an up tempo offense so he's really got two contradicting styles going. The defense wants to create havoc and speed up the opposing teams offense forcing them into mistakes but the offense wants to slow down and limit the other team's possessions. It doesn't work, it needs to change, Mick needs to figure something out. When I look at the roster going forward I don't see how he's going to solve the problems he currently has unless he undergoes a complete change in philosophy which I don't see happening. So we'll continue to see teams that compete because of defense and rebounding and effort and we'll continue to want to pull out our hair when our team has the ball on offense. Some years we might make a run and get hot at the right time and wind up in a sweet 16 and some years we might miss the tourney all together. If people cool with that than so be it but I'm looking for something more. If Mick can deliver that then I'm all for it but if we're still having these same discussions 1 or 2 or 3 years from now I think the it's time to move on.

PS - I don't agree that Yancy didn't have drive. Instill that drive in him if you're the coach, Yancy showed a ton of heart at the end of last season and played a huge role in our sweet 16 run. The guy could play and had a ton of talent, we just didn't harness it correctly. Yancy did a disservice to himself by coming to UC and playing for Mick.

 

[Amberlycolonel]

Art Long, Bobby Brannen, Erik Martin, Curtis Bostic.

 

[westsidecat]

I know we have talked about this over several threads but I wanted to share my thoughts without answering to a previous post.

The first thing that stands out to me is how differently this team is playing now as opposed to early in the season. The depth they had has become useless and goes unused. The length and athleticism that could wear teams down and force turnovers is gone. On offense the team milks the clock then tries a one on one move that results in a forced, bad shot. Since Dec. 15th this team has scored 70points 3 times against teams not named Maryland Eastern Shore or Directional U., and one of those games took overtime to get there.

What I see is a staff that has failed to make adjustments and play to the team's strengths, or a team that absolutely refuses to do what the coaches ask on the floor. Either way it's bad. I see a team fundamentally flawed, which has a hard time executing the simpliest of basketball's basic moves, such as screens.

I see a team with no floor leader, a star player unwilling to embrace his role and who lacks the toughness to take the ball to the basket. A team with no defined roles for the players or the bench. Substitutions aren't targeted with players x, y and z coming in, they are simply an attempt to catch lightening in a bottle because their roles aren't defined and their skills developed by giving them consistent playing time. You can't develop a back up point guard playing him 6-7 minutes a game. You can't develop a bench playing a guy 19 minutes one game and them having him sit the next 3 because "he doesn't fit the match ups." You develop your team and make others make the adjustments. Your strengths versus theirs and who does a better job limiting that teams strengths wins.

I have been a Mick Cronin supporter, and I still am, but I lay this squarely at the feet of him and his staff. Yancy Gates never developed low post moves and neither has any other big that has come here under Mick Cronin. That tells a story. Gates was good when he could hit short range jumpers and use his size on put backs. Not so much in isolation. That is coaching and development pure and simple.

They fail to develop existing skills or recruit guys with the skills they need, instead they focus on recruiting athletes. Which is fine if you play to their strengths, not so much in the halfcourt they have settled into. You can't recruit guys to play a certain style and then not play that way and expect them to be successful outside of their skill set.

Players are scared to shoot, are timid when they pass, and look to the bench after every mistake they make. That tells me they are more worried about a coaches reaction to something than simply playing basketball. Not good.

I said a couple seasons ago that Mick needed to revamp this staff with teachers or spend more time on player development as it pertains to shooting, dribbling, etc.. I'm not talking about individual instructions on what the player needs to work on in the offseason, I'm talking hands on teaching, and shooting machines for repetition. The ability to pull up and hit a mid-range shot or a free throw. Recruiting is huge, but it means nothing if you can't develop what you bring in.

Mick prepared to play a certain way in the offseason and now has stopped employing that style. He and his staff have taken away from themselves the strengths they have to use against opponents. I completely hold the players accountable for their part, but where we are now is on the head coach and staff. What I have seen in the last 9-10 games is Mick trying to will this team to win other than making adjustments to help them win. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. A good coach knows when something has to give. Mick change begins at the top and you need to make some and make them NOW!

+1

 

[ready2go]

Ready, I actually think you are a great for this board, because you bring a different perspective that makes for great debate. I give you full credit for pointing out the early warning signs for this team. It's not always easy to critique when we are winning.

However, I can't let you get away with waxing nostalgic about the former recruits while condemning the current bunch. Of those "Cats of old" only Burton and Levett have tasted more tournament success than the current starters. Also, none of the players that you listed have beaten a higher seeded team in the tournament like last year's team did. I love the players and teams of old. It's going to be hard for Mick to top some of the love for those teams, but at the same time we can't ignore the failures of most of those teams. Way too many wet blankets to look back and say these are the type of players we need to recruit to be even more successful.

That was in regard to the just recruting athletes comment from someone else.

Those guys may not have won us games in the tourny, but they were pretty damn good. It was exciting to watch the post player actually present a post move while trying to tear the rim off the backboard! It was amaing watching our pg's dish the bball. It was relieving knowing that we had a zone buster. It was energizing watching our guys fly from the rafters. I want that excitement back in the Nati! And no, this is not about Bob Huggins. I am a Cincinnati fan, not a Huggins fan

 

[ready2go]

Thanks! I did forget about Max and Hicks. All the above names are more defense minded bigs except for Danny. He in my memory was the only go to big we had. Doring his years we didn't have a good pg. Yancy had all the tools but no drive. I don't know what type of offense you can rum with this team. They make so many bone head plays, I don't a motion offense can work. I hope he figures out something.

So why put them in an offense where they are the key decision makers? In a drive and dish offense, aren't you relying on your team to make the RIGHT decision??

 

[UCBearcats]

Also, none of the players that you listed have beaten a higher seeded team in the tournament like last year's team did.

Kind of a loaded stat don't you think? Not as many opportunities to beat a higher seeded team when you're playing in the tourney as a 1 2 or 3 seed.

Obviously that was Huggs biggest downfall here at UC, his teams were generally a let down come March.

 

[bearcat jeff]

Good post

I may have blown things out of proportion , but remember when we were winning and I had complaints????

This is why. We were playing scrubs and still had those same habbits. We stood around jacking up wide open 3's vs inferior opponents. Some things we did well, but for the most part, it was the same. We did little transition. We had little movement. We had little screening. We had little penetration. The difference....we hit 3's with no hands in the face.

NOW we are playing the big dogs and we can't do anything. Guys are scared to make mistakes. We don't push the ball. We don't have a bench. We can't hit contested shots. We don't penetrate (when we do, we pick up our dribble in the lane). We can't rebound. We get pushed around.

As for recruiting.... The Cats of old always had a PG, Shooter, Slasher and Big

PG(Logan, Satterfield)
Shooter(Field and Nick Williams, Baker, Durden, Burton)
Slasher(White, Michael, McCelroy, Levett)
Big(Martin, Hicks, Max, Little)

Several of those recuits were Mick recruits. He pushed Logan to Huggs who did not initially want him.

People can say all they want about this that or the other but CUSA was not the BEast and Huggins never beat a higher seed in the tournament. He did less with a lot of talent over 16 years. Huggins have a really good basketball staff with guys like Loyer and Cronin. I think Mick needs to revamp this staff and add teachers of the game and they need to reevaluate the offseason and what they have players do to improve their skill set.

 

[ready2go]

Several of those recuits were Mick recruits. He pushed Logan to Huggs who did not initially want him.

People can say all they want about this that or the other but CUSA was not the BEast and Huggins never beat a higher seed in the tournament. He did less with a lot of talent over 16 years. Huggins have a really good basketball staff with guys like Loyer and Cronin. I think Mick needs to revamp this staff and add teachers of the game and they need to reevaluate the offseason and what they have players do to improve their skill set.

This is what I did not want to happen.

This has zero to do with Huggins. My point was, the team had a shooter....a guy who could dish and handle the ball....a guy who could get to the rim....and bigs who were not pansies

I would like to see us recruit a well rounded team and not just long guys who are athletic

 

[bearcat jeff]

This is what I did not want to happen.

This has zero to do with Huggins. My point was, the team had a shooter....a guy who could dish and handle the ball....a guy who could get to the rim....and bigs who were not pansies

I would like to see us recruit a well rounded team and not just long guys who are athletic

Wasn't making it about Huggins. Simply comparing staffs and what I think Mick needs to do. I'm not a big Larry Davis fan and wasn't when he was hired. He's a hard worker and I think that's where it ends.

 

[ready2go]

Wasn't making it about Huggins. Simply comparing staffs and what I think Mick needs to do. I'm not a big Larry Davis fan and wasn't when he was hired. He's a hard worker and I think that's where it ends.

I see

Well hopefully we can get a big man who needs work at the defensive end for once and not have to develop them offensively (Mobdj, Gaines, David, even jump shooting Gates).... Lawrence! I want an animal in the paint. Please