jacobkdoyle
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Haha no big deal. I was just reading through and I was like hang on.
Tulsa
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Haha no big deal. I was just reading through and I was like hang on.
WAITE HOYT 2
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We have a big week coming up. Need to win at Tulane and WSU. Winning the league puts us on the opposite side of the league bracket from Houston and WSU. If we lose we will have to play Houston to advance to the finals. I think they are the hottest team in our league.
I am never going to complain too much after a win but I am still a little bit concerned about a couple of things. We have been giving up too many 3's lately against teams that can pressure us a little bit off the bounce and have several players who can shoot. We have to keep up offensively and we did. So much so that we had a record night shooting 3's (under Cronin) and we still only won by 8. On a normal shooting night we probably miss about 5-7 of those 3's. That's a lot of points we don't normally get especially against a better D.
Scott had another nice game! I worry a little bit that Cronin will fall in love with that and play him more in bigger games where he hasn't done as well. He's done a great job of grabbing rebounds and we know he can defend well so if that can translate to bigger games it will help.
Cumberland has been playing great all around BB for some time now. If we can get him to shoot a little better in big games we are going to be looking very good. I loved that drive and turn around overhand kickout to Clark!! Evans got back to making 3's off catches. Cronin says they have been working on the 3 ball so I hope that continues. Clark is really stroking it from 3 because he takes very very good looks. I would not mind seeing him and Kyle take just a few more opportunities outside. We can really spread the floor and pressure the D when those two can hit shots. It might just open up the inside when teams start out doubling the post all the time. Whether we go inside out or outside in I'm not sure I care...as long as we can make one or the other happen.
Scott had another nice game! I worry a little bit that Cronin will fall in love with that and play him more in bigger games where he hasn't done as well. He's done a great job of grabbing rebounds and we know he can defend well so if that can translate to bigger games it will help.
Cumberland has been playing great all around BB for some time now. If we can get him to shoot a little better in big games we are going to be looking very good. I loved that drive and turn around overhand kickout to Clark!! Evans got back to making 3's off catches. Cronin says they have been working on the 3 ball so I hope that continues. Clark is really stroking it from 3 because he takes very very good looks. I would not mind seeing him and Kyle take just a few more opportunities outside. We can really spread the floor and pressure the D when those two can hit shots. It might just open up the inside when teams start out doubling the post all the time. Whether we go inside out or outside in I'm not sure I care...as long as we can make one or the other happen.
Concerning Cane having the highest +/- on the team I think it's significant for 1 major reason. About half of his minutes (when he get's 20) are not with the full starting lineup. It comes when there are 1 or 2 subs in the game. When you lead the team in that category without the benefit of playing with the other 4 starters it should raise some eyebrows. Evans, Clark, and Cumberland are pretty much running with the starters AND the subs because they get major minutes in the closer games.
Cobb did not lead the team in that category but he was well ahead of KJ when he finally took over starting duties. If Cane is leading the team it's a fairly significant accomplishment IMO.
I don't know what it is that is keeping him out and I won't pretend to at this point. Defensive mistakes? Ball security? Not running the first play option before improvising? Attitude or work ethic? I don't know but it is something that is not entirely clear to most of us. I just hope he and Cronin can get on the same page so we can realize our highest potential.
Cobb did not lead the team in that category but he was well ahead of KJ when he finally took over starting duties. If Cane is leading the team it's a fairly significant accomplishment IMO.
I don't know what it is that is keeping him out and I won't pretend to at this point. Defensive mistakes? Ball security? Not running the first play option before improvising? Attitude or work ethic? I don't know but it is something that is not entirely clear to most of us. I just hope he and Cronin can get on the same page so we can realize our highest potential.
Concerning Kyle. Obviously he has superior offensive talent. However, in the last couple of games he has had a rough go on defense and rebounding. I am not sure where his head is at right now but it's not always in the game. We may not have won that game without the switch to Scott. That may be the first time I have said that. Scott has out rebounded him 16 to 7 in the last two games and provided better D.
Out of 3 things...Kyle needs to do 2 of them better than any sub (or at least equal). Scoring is obviously 1 of them and he does. After that he has to either rebound very well or defend a lot better. He can't be losing both the defense and rebounding competition to the bench guys. We need Kyle in the game if we want to put full pressure on opposing D's. I am a little concerned lately with Kyle.
Out of 3 things...Kyle needs to do 2 of them better than any sub (or at least equal). Scoring is obviously 1 of them and he does. After that he has to either rebound very well or defend a lot better. He can't be losing both the defense and rebounding competition to the bench guys. We need Kyle in the game if we want to put full pressure on opposing D's. I am a little concerned lately with Kyle.
Not sure if it was already addressed....but 1 thing that really frustrated me was Mick slowing the game down with 10 minutes to play in the 2nd half. Seemed WAY too early and it certainly stopped our momentum and Tulsa took over a bit.
Now - I'm a fan and not a coach...did he ever say why? One reason that after the game I could think of was he thought he needed a certain lineup (at least certain players) on the floor the last 10 minutes and needed to conserve energy. But I really disliked it. That said - he got us a win...so his way turned out to not be that bad yesterday at least.
Now - I'm a fan and not a coach...did he ever say why? One reason that after the game I could think of was he thought he needed a certain lineup (at least certain players) on the floor the last 10 minutes and needed to conserve energy. But I really disliked it. That said - he got us a win...so his way turned out to not be that bad yesterday at least.
In his last 6 games Kyle has played less than 20 minutes 4 times, one at 23 and one at 28. In the previous 8 games he played a minimum of 23 minutes in every game, played 28+ four times and a max of 35.
This is not a good trend in his senior year. He can rebound when he sets his mind to it. In order to play good D he has to have a little more focus than he has lately. He's just too smart and driven for me to believe he can't get this turned around.
I'm not sure when it happened but 10 minutes to go is too early to start any prevent type of game unless you are up 20-30. I don't mind running clock when we have a significant lead to milk a victory. I will take a win any time even if it hurts our metrics a bit.
That being said we have now seen (at least) two games when the opposing team decided not to foul and were hoping to get a stop effectively killing their chances when they didn't get the stop. We are not a good FT shooting team...I don't know why any team would go for a defensive stop as opposed to stopping the clock and making us shoot FT's. UCF did the same thing.
Don't look now but Broome is now tied with Shamet for #1 in assist to turnover ratio in conference play. 2.5 to 1.
Well you can look now I guess...
Evans is #3 at 2.4 to 1...
#12 on the list is 1.1 to 1. Not sure what the qualifier is
Well you can look now I guess...
Evans is #3 at 2.4 to 1...
#12 on the list is 1.1 to 1. Not sure what the qualifier is
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I feel like part of the problem is Cronin would prefer winning a game 60-55 rather then 80-70. And I honestly believe that. The slower pace and lower scoring a game is the more control he feels like he has. We see it time and time again where he will take our own team out of an offensive rhythm by making a poor substitution or forcing the offense to slow down.
If Broome has a defensive rating as excellent on Synergy you start to wonder what is going on? It's not turnover ratio...it's not D. It's not offense. It's not rebounding over Jenifer. It's not steals.
jacobkdoyle
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Jenifer has a better AST/TO in AAC
On the AAC site he doesn't. Not sure what the qualifications are...
jacobkdoyle
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Maybe you have to be at 3 assists per game? Idk.
cincrulz11
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seems like it cause cumberland has a 1.58 assist to turnover ratio and he's not on that list and he's 2 assists shy of 3 assists per game.
david aka the TYZ
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I don't know if I should bother posting, but I'll once again try and explain how I see things at why Mick uses Cane the way he does:
First and foremost, Mick has said numerous times it takes most guys a year or two in the system to learn how to play defense (his defense at least). That's why Guyn started over Caupain, KJ over Cobb, KJ over Cumberland. It really is that simple at how Mick approaches things. And in all those cases those players were better in our half court defense than the players they started over at the time they started over them. Not even close really. We could argue why he favors defense over offense, but that's a separate topic and one I could expound upon as well. Not saying I agree or defend him, just saying this is how I see him think and operate. And we all know Mick expects you to play defense right before he'll give you minutes.
So with that said, Jenifer started the year off much more ready to play Mick ball -- defend, rebound, protect ball. I think he's been hard on Cane for two reasons. One, Cane has two years to learn, not four (year of practice isn't exactly games, but is at least an extra year in system). He knows what type of player Broome can be and is showing him tough love. This is typical of how Mick handles other players, so he's not showing favorites, he pulled Jenifer for the same exact things the last two years. Secondly, I think Cane has a little bit of an attitude about things and some of it is him showing Cane who's in charge. And that I have no problem with.
Another thing is as a coach you have to maximize your players time and skills when they're in the game. Cane is lightning quick, his offensive game is more suited for creating himself and he hasn't fully mastered Micks defense. Jenifer is more deliberate on offense, more apt to facilitate than create and he's very strong for his size and great in Micks defense, shortness being his biggest flaw cause guys can shoot over him.
So with all that said, three of your other starters are Gary, Washington and Cumberland all being slower guys and more suited for half court. Mick wants to run an offense through Gary and Kyle first. If you can establish an inside game and the defense allows it we will win every time with those two. So you start a game with that in mind.
Mick has always liked a change of pace defense and run full court press with a second team when he's had the players to do it. This year he does and it suits Cane for two reasons. One he's quick and chaotic (in a good way) hounding the ball, and two the other players, Scott and brooks are also quick and their offensive games are better suited for easy buckets rather than create for themselves. Cane is good at finding these guys easy buckets or creating himself in a transition game that the press allows.
Again, it's about maximizing players time and who they're playing with. Cane is underutilized with the starters. It's no coincidence that usually when Kyle comes out and Brooks comes in, Cane does as well. Kyle is useless if he's trying to compliment a Cane Broome. He can only score one way, other than an occasional three, and that's to get the ball in the middle of the paint and go to work. Well if Kyle is clogging up the lane, Cane can't do what he's good at. Clark is too at a lesser extent cause he usually gets the ball closer to the base line than the middle, but same idea, he has to get the ball and go to work to score. So I think Mick wants Jenifer in with these guys to start so that more of Canes minutes come with one or both of these guys on the bench. Jenifer in with Scott and Brooks would mean they would be creating like Gary and Kyle do and that would spell disaster. Although, realistically Jenifer has been forced into being a Caupain type guy cause his ball skills are better than he actually plays and that's an issue I have with Mick and Jenifer, but again it's due to Micks style and what Jenifer was asked to do as Caupains backup and having scorers like Gary and Kyle down low.
Cane is obviously the better player, but is he being maximized playing along side Gary and Kyle? And Evans and Cumberland too? They can't all get points, you still get one shot per possession. Is he being maximized force feeding Gary and Kyle and running around the perimeter? Say what you will, but our best chance to win is with Gary and Kyle scoring. If those two get the ball down low and can score we are very rough to beat.
Is Jenifer being maximized with the backups? Can he create easy buckets for Scott or Brooks? Does he hound the press or is he as quick as Cane?
I think Mick is comfortable enough now with Cane to know what he will and won't get. Cane has yet to master his speed and is still sloppy with the passes (the easy passes that shouldn't be issues) but he isn't a liability by any stretch of the imagination with the ball in his hands. I'll take a turnover all day with a guy being aggressive than a guy never push the ball. Maybe Cane is a 30 minute max guy. I think utilizing his unique skills in minutes off the starters makes sense and hiding Jenifer in with Gary and Kyle makes sense too for all the reasons I've listed. Mick doesn't press with the starters, he's more deliberate offensively in feeding the post with the starters (and justifiably so) . I think part of Canes +/- is the fact that we press and are way more aggressive with him and others in. When we go on our runs with Cane in, usually it's with other backups in as well. And that's by design. If we used the same logic then do we think Scott should start over Washington? Cause I bet his +/- in some games and yesterday's to be specific would be inflated as well.
Now I've said all year I think this team would be better if Cane became the player we needed him to be and could start, but I do see the logic in having his minutes opposite the slow, deliberate style we start games off trying to establish things inside. And I do think Cane has adjusted and adapted to this level to warrant the minutes. Especially with Jenifer giving us very little. He had assists yesterday, but that's cause Tulsa played soft D and gave us open threes and we hit them. Jenifer wasn't exactly creating shots with his wizardry with the ball. Jenifer is good at stopping the other teams guard. We struggled yesterday cause Gary got on foul trouble and kyle was lost. We gave up way too many open looks the first half. The second half, we hounded the ball and didn't give open looks and Tulsa miraculously quit hitting shots. Sometimes I think Jenifers +/- is negatively reflected with how bad Kyle plays. Whereas Canes is inflated with more aggressive defense when he is in with Scott. But he clearly can score and I'm really impressed with his kickout threes. He hits a high percentage of them.
First and foremost, Mick has said numerous times it takes most guys a year or two in the system to learn how to play defense (his defense at least). That's why Guyn started over Caupain, KJ over Cobb, KJ over Cumberland. It really is that simple at how Mick approaches things. And in all those cases those players were better in our half court defense than the players they started over at the time they started over them. Not even close really. We could argue why he favors defense over offense, but that's a separate topic and one I could expound upon as well. Not saying I agree or defend him, just saying this is how I see him think and operate. And we all know Mick expects you to play defense right before he'll give you minutes.
So with that said, Jenifer started the year off much more ready to play Mick ball -- defend, rebound, protect ball. I think he's been hard on Cane for two reasons. One, Cane has two years to learn, not four (year of practice isn't exactly games, but is at least an extra year in system). He knows what type of player Broome can be and is showing him tough love. This is typical of how Mick handles other players, so he's not showing favorites, he pulled Jenifer for the same exact things the last two years. Secondly, I think Cane has a little bit of an attitude about things and some of it is him showing Cane who's in charge. And that I have no problem with.
Another thing is as a coach you have to maximize your players time and skills when they're in the game. Cane is lightning quick, his offensive game is more suited for creating himself and he hasn't fully mastered Micks defense. Jenifer is more deliberate on offense, more apt to facilitate than create and he's very strong for his size and great in Micks defense, shortness being his biggest flaw cause guys can shoot over him.
So with all that said, three of your other starters are Gary, Washington and Cumberland all being slower guys and more suited for half court. Mick wants to run an offense through Gary and Kyle first. If you can establish an inside game and the defense allows it we will win every time with those two. So you start a game with that in mind.
Mick has always liked a change of pace defense and run full court press with a second team when he's had the players to do it. This year he does and it suits Cane for two reasons. One he's quick and chaotic (in a good way) hounding the ball, and two the other players, Scott and brooks are also quick and their offensive games are better suited for easy buckets rather than create for themselves. Cane is good at finding these guys easy buckets or creating himself in a transition game that the press allows.
Again, it's about maximizing players time and who they're playing with. Cane is underutilized with the starters. It's no coincidence that usually when Kyle comes out and Brooks comes in, Cane does as well. Kyle is useless if he's trying to compliment a Cane Broome. He can only score one way, other than an occasional three, and that's to get the ball in the middle of the paint and go to work. Well if Kyle is clogging up the lane, Cane can't do what he's good at. Clark is too at a lesser extent cause he usually gets the ball closer to the base line than the middle, but same idea, he has to get the ball and go to work to score. So I think Mick wants Jenifer in with these guys to start so that more of Canes minutes come with one or both of these guys on the bench. Jenifer in with Scott and Brooks would mean they would be creating like Gary and Kyle do and that would spell disaster. Although, realistically Jenifer has been forced into being a Caupain type guy cause his ball skills are better than he actually plays and that's an issue I have with Mick and Jenifer, but again it's due to Micks style and what Jenifer was asked to do as Caupains backup and having scorers like Gary and Kyle down low.
Cane is obviously the better player, but is he being maximized playing along side Gary and Kyle? And Evans and Cumberland too? They can't all get points, you still get one shot per possession. Is he being maximized force feeding Gary and Kyle and running around the perimeter? Say what you will, but our best chance to win is with Gary and Kyle scoring. If those two get the ball down low and can score we are very rough to beat.
Is Jenifer being maximized with the backups? Can he create easy buckets for Scott or Brooks? Does he hound the press or is he as quick as Cane?
I think Mick is comfortable enough now with Cane to know what he will and won't get. Cane has yet to master his speed and is still sloppy with the passes (the easy passes that shouldn't be issues) but he isn't a liability by any stretch of the imagination with the ball in his hands. I'll take a turnover all day with a guy being aggressive than a guy never push the ball. Maybe Cane is a 30 minute max guy. I think utilizing his unique skills in minutes off the starters makes sense and hiding Jenifer in with Gary and Kyle makes sense too for all the reasons I've listed. Mick doesn't press with the starters, he's more deliberate offensively in feeding the post with the starters (and justifiably so) . I think part of Canes +/- is the fact that we press and are way more aggressive with him and others in. When we go on our runs with Cane in, usually it's with other backups in as well. And that's by design. If we used the same logic then do we think Scott should start over Washington? Cause I bet his +/- in some games and yesterday's to be specific would be inflated as well.
Now I've said all year I think this team would be better if Cane became the player we needed him to be and could start, but I do see the logic in having his minutes opposite the slow, deliberate style we start games off trying to establish things inside. And I do think Cane has adjusted and adapted to this level to warrant the minutes. Especially with Jenifer giving us very little. He had assists yesterday, but that's cause Tulsa played soft D and gave us open threes and we hit them. Jenifer wasn't exactly creating shots with his wizardry with the ball. Jenifer is good at stopping the other teams guard. We struggled yesterday cause Gary got on foul trouble and kyle was lost. We gave up way too many open looks the first half. The second half, we hounded the ball and didn't give open looks and Tulsa miraculously quit hitting shots. Sometimes I think Jenifers +/- is negatively reflected with how bad Kyle plays. Whereas Canes is inflated with more aggressive defense when he is in with Scott. But he clearly can score and I'm really impressed with his kickout threes. He hits a high percentage of them.
Hahahaha. Really tired reading through some of this, I was trying to figure out what point you were making. Too tired for the sarcasm, then I saw the punchline LOL
A lot of information in that post and I would agree with a lot of it (so I shortened it). I would agree we need to go to Kyle and Gary early to see if we can establish inside scoring. But more and more teams are taking that away from us by doubling. If we can get the ball to Kyle and Gary one on one it doesn't matter who is running point but how often is this going to happen where a team lets us get away with that before they take it away if they don't start out taking it away?
So we can work the ball around and try to get it down low but if and when that doesn't happen we still need some guys who can make plays in the last 10 seconds of the clock.
Evans, Clark, and Cumberland are going to be on the floor for 35 minutes in a big game. If we can get Cane to 30+ or even 35 it would not matter if he is playing with the starters or the bench...because he is going to be in the game for most of it.
Houston pretty much showed anyone watching how to play us. Double the post if and when the ball gets there and guard the perimeter to keep us from getting into sets. At that point you need a player like Cane to do the one thing that most teams don't have a plan for and that is trying to account for a guard who is just hard to stay in front of or catch up to.
The problem with keeping him out for 5 minutes to start each half is you are limiting his minute potential to 30. Then if he makes a mistake when he does get in and you decide to pull him you are further reducing his minutes to 25 or 20. Everyone makes mistakes. Maybe Cane makes a few more in the long run but his +/- being the best on the team...you have to live with it for the most part if you want to give your team the best chance to win close games IMO.
I don't mind Cronin pulling him to point out specific mistakes...but I would prefer you then put him back in there as soon as you can. If he fouls a 3 point shooter...you don't even have to pull him...he knows what he did wrong. You pull him for things he is not aware of. Being out of position on D or improvising and taking shots before we try the preferred play etc.
In regards to Jenifer's +/- stats being hindered by Kyle...I don't buy it. If Kyle hinders +/- then we should not have him in there too much. But his +/- stats are just fine. The top 5 are between +18 and +19.4. Brooks is next at 17.4 and the next after that are three guys in the 13 range (Jenifer, Moore, Nsoseme). After that you drop to 6 or 8 with Williams and Scott. I think Scott is on the rise right now.
I understand it's not as simple as all that...but at first glance it seems to suggest who we want to keep in the game. It also seems to jive with what most fans would think are our best 5 players. Coincidence?
I understand it's not as simple as all that...but at first glance it seems to suggest who we want to keep in the game. It also seems to jive with what most fans would think are our best 5 players. Coincidence?
WAITE HOYT 2
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A wise man wrote when a coach starts listening to the fans he is in big trouble.
