UCF

[waterhead]

Waterhead, this is what started the whole thing. I didn't ask for this. I asked for more info after this. Much of which you have yet to provide.

You asked for efficiency...which I copied again about 3 posts above.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I gave you the exact info you asked for before you move the goal post.

I wasn't moving the goal post. I wanted more information. You provided something I never asked for. I read it and asked for more, analyzed it further, and had several more questions. Sorry I didn't pick out every single thing wrong with what I never asked for to begin with all in the first sweep?

 

[waterhead]

You asked for efficiency...which I copied again about 3 posts above.

I would at least assume if we are running out of steam that we aren't getting better efficiency out of the guys who should be tired. Worse.. not better!! This is the point. Late season our highest mpg guys are getting better. I don't understand the argument.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

You asked for efficiency...which I copied again about 3 posts above.

You are acting as if I set up the idea that pulling Caupain, SK, and Evans last 5 games stats from random years would decide once and for all if fatigue is real in basketball. Then when presented partial info, scrambled to add onto it. That's not what's happening here. I'm geuinely curious in what you'll find. But what you have up to this point is basically nothing in the grand scheme of things. But if it's enough for you, have at it.

 

[sedziobs]

Not really sure what we're discussing here.

I don't understand the argument.

Vicious cycle.

 

[waterhead]

Could it be that they are in big games and are playing the most then? What are the per 40 stats? What are the usage stats? What are the shooting %s? How was Coach managing them leading up to those games compared to earlier in the year?

This was your request. It says nothing about other players or other teams. The question was about the players I mentioned. I gave the efficiency numbers for the players in question. I don't want to pretend I have to research every other team, coach, or player in America to prove the same point.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I would at least assume if we are running out of steam that we aren't getting better efficiency out of the guys who should be tired. Worse.. not better!! This is the point. Late season our highest mpg guys are getting better. I don't understand the argument.

Does Coach resting players down the stretch have anything to do with it? What about having 5/6 days off before half of the games you are citing? That doesn't scream playing while farigued to me.

Are you comfortable saying this across the board? Or could it help that they are upperclassmen who have been through it? Does it impact guards differently than big men? Role starters more than star players? Per 40 numbers?

This isn't moving the goal post. It's mentioning other things that I feel like need to be considered. You don't have to provide any of that. But before I jump on board with fatigue not being a thing, I would need to know. There's an NBA study that said dunks are down 12% in the 4Q compared to 1Q and there's less transition, longer possessions, etc.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Vicious cycle.

Lol.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

This was your request. It says nothing about other players or other teams. The question was about the players I mentioned. I gave the efficiency numbers for the players in question. I don't want to pretend I have to research every other team, coach, or player in America to prove the same point.

If you can't even acknowledge that I've asked for anything else, I don't even know how we can continue this conversation. For the sake of the rest of the board though, let's just not.

 

[waterhead]

If you can't even acknowledge that I've asked for anything else, I don't even know how we can continue this conversation. For the sake of the rest of the board though, let's just not.

You haven't acknowledged the things I provided. Why would I move on to any other subject? That's why I hate moving goal posts. It's so easy to change subject.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

You haven't acknowledged the things I provided. Why would I move on to any other subject? That's why I hate moving goal posts. It's so easy to change subject.

I have acknowledged it. What I haven't done is completely accept it, at least in half the cases. And I used the info provided to dig deeper and explain why. You aren't at the bottom of the issue just bc you posted a couple additional things that I asked about. I think that's where you're confused.

Anyway, I'll give you the last word. Have at it.

 

[waterhead]

You haven't acknowledged the things I provided. Why would I move on to any other subject? That's why I hate moving goal posts. It's so easy to change subject.

You are now talking about practice and other things. I was talking about game minutes. Before moving on to practice can we at least determine that game minutes haven't been a factor for the highest usage guys? Maybe you could give me an example of high usage guys falling off a cliff late season? I mean I have provided stats for the opposite.

 

[justinhub2003]

Every player is different. Gary Clark seems to be one of the players that does better in lower minutes. Gary is playing the least amount of minutes he's ever played in his career.

Yet he is posting career best in the following stats:
Offensive rating
PPG
RPG
3Pt%
Steal Rate
Block Rate
True Shooting %
TO Rate
Free Throw Rate
OR%
DR%
Assist Rate
FD per 40
FC per 40
Free Throw %


Thats insane. Gary needs rest because of the way he gets beat up down low. Cronin mentioned he had another tooth go through his lip when he played UCONN on Saturday.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

You are now talking about practice and other things. I was talking about game minutes. Before moving on to practice can we at least determine that game minutes haven't been a factor for the highest usage guys? Maybe you could give me an example of high usage guys falling off a cliff late season? I mean I have provided stats for the opposite.

Fatigue doesn't have to be at the end of the season. Coach just said Clark is tired after the UConn game, where he had 5 points and 6 rebounds. For Clark, his ankle is said to be bothering him too though. So how much? Idk. But that happened before the Houston game and he had much better game in that one. So maybe it's a coincidence, maybe Coach is right. Who am I to say? And I'm just going to leave this whole thing right here. No one else wants to read about this.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

-16

 

[justinhub2003]

I guess what I don't understand about this debate is:

What are actually debating here?

• In close games we need to give our best players breaks in the middle of the halves of each game. Especially gary and Kyle. It keeps them fresh and out of fatigue driven fouls.
• In games were we are whooping ass, we can rest our best players for mostly the last 10 minutes. Evans can play a little bit more since he helps keep us from having a complete meltdown. This keeps us fresher long term.
• In a single elimination game, Which we haven' played yet this year, sure we need to maximize the minutes of our best players ESPECIALLY if we are losing. However its never bad to try fresh legs as an approach to either gain the lead or hold it from the bench. Our bench can be really streaky, but you never know if its a good streak if you don't try.

That seems pretty clear cut right?

Also Scoring is not the right stat to check for fatigue. Defensive stats, Efficiency, and even free throw shooting can show a players fatigue.

A perfect example of a team who would love to have a better bench so they can rest their guys more is: St Johns. Ponds is really really good however because he is playing 87% of his teams minutes, his efficiency isn't very good and in a lot of games, he ends up missing shots at the rim that he had been making all game.

whats the point of depth if you never use it to your advantage. Also, because we play so intense on the defensive end, it wears out the other team. But if we our selves are wore out from it, we create no advantage. Justin Jenifer, for example is the jab to Cane's left hook. We soften them up, and make them work for every movement on the court, then bring in another guard who is completely fresh and is doing the same thing. We take over late in the 1st half when our depth and pressure wears on teams and they ultimately cough it up.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I guess what I don't understand about this debate is:

What are actually debating here?

• In close games we need to give our best players breaks in the middle of the halves of each game. Especially gary and Kyle. It keeps them fresh and out of fatigue driven fouls.
  [*]In games were we are whooping ass, we can rest our best players for mostly the last 10 minutes. Evans can play a little bit more since he helps keep us from having a complete meltdown. This keeps us fresher long term.
• In a single elimination game, Which we haven' played yet this year, sure we need to maximize the minutes of our best players ESPECIALLY if we are losing. However its never bad to try fresh legs as an approach to either gain the lead or hold it from the bench. Our bench can be really streaky, but you never know if its a good streak if you don't try.

That seems pretty clear cut right?

Also Scoring is not the right stat to check for fatigue. Defensive stats, Efficiency, and even free throw shooting can show a players fatigue.

A perfect example of a team who would love to have a better bench so they can rest their guys more is: St Johns. Ponds is really really good however because he is playing 87% of his teams minutes, his efficiency isn't very good and in a lot of games, he ends up missing shots at the rim that he had been making all game.

whats the point of depth if you never use it to your advantage. Also, because we play so intense on the defensive end, it wears out the other team. But if we our selves are wore out from it, we create no advantage. Justin Jenifer, for example is the jab to Cane's left hook. We soften them up, and make them work for every movement on the court, then bring in another guard who is completely fresh and is doing the same thing. We take over late in the 1st half when our depth and pressure wears on teams and they ultimately cough it up.

This is the part that isn't clear cut. If you don't believe in fatigue really being a thing, the reason you'd bench guys when we're up big would be 100% for freak injury prevention. Bc if fatigue isn't a thing, it wouldn't matter if you added those minutes on or not.

 

[juckerrules]

Every player is different. Gary Clark seems to be one of the players that does better in lower minutes. Gary is playing the least amount of minutes he's ever played in his career.

Yet he is posting career best in the following stats:
Offensive rating
PPG
RPG
3Pt%
Steal Rate
Block Rate
True Shooting %
TO Rate
Free Throw Rate
OR%
DR%
Assist Rate
FD per 40
FC per 40
Free Throw %


Thats insane. Gary needs rest because of the way he gets beat up down low. Cronin mentioned he had another tooth go through his lip when he played UCONN on Saturday.

Weird...this conversation got me started looking at stats...I was surprised...shocked even, to see that Justin Jenifer has a better ORtg than Cane Broome - never woulda guessed it

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/cane-broome-1.html
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/justin-jenifer-1.html

 

[justinhub2003]

Weird...this conversation got me started looking at stats...I was surprised...shocked even, to see that Justin Jenifer has a better ORtg than Cane Broome - never woulda guessed it

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/cane-broome-1.html
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/justin-jenifer-1.html

A player like Jenifer plays low risk but also low reward, he protects the ball, doesn’t really try flashy plays so his rating is high.

Cane is much more aggressive and actually tries to score, so his rating will be more realistic.

 

[Cin City]

Well....tonight is a must win imo. Next week will be quite the test, even @ an injury laden SMU. We need to make sure and take care of business tonight before we enter arguably our toughest 3 game stretch. Go Bearcats!!!