He did, or you did? I think he provided something to measure with. I think you presumed it was the measuring stick for his argument, and so looked to dismiss it.In order to accept waterhead's data, I have to acknowledge that it is a valuable measure in this debate. But I never agreed to that. He decided that it will be the measuring stick. It simply isn't a good one. I pointed out several reason why. If he now wants to stick to his original claim, citing the data that he presented, that's up to him. But it's not enough for me to change my stance.
There's a principle of rational debate called "steel man", in which it is more prudent to attack the strongest part of your opponent's argument. This is opposed to "straw man" where you attack the weakest part, or fabricate a weak argument to attack. Straw men are easy to defeat, but ineffective in moving the debate forward. You seem to be building a straw man out of Waterhead's comments.
You are making it sound like I asked for that data, and I got it. I asked for more information after waterhead already set the rules that the last 5 games of a season from 3 players on 1 team will determine this. The data I asked for then was about other teams, other players on our team, per 40 minutes stats, usage stats, factoring in coaches who switch practice routines, etc. I never got any of that. The only piece of anything left to argue is what Caupain did in the AAC and NCAA Tournament, with nothing to go on besides shooting % and points. And SK's SR year. We have no idea what is included in that. Did he go nuts on his SR day? Was he getting a lighter load beforehand? I don't know any of this bc what I was presented what the most limited version of data conceivable. I'm actually trying to help him out by giving him better things to test for HIS theory and you're knocking me for not doing all the work involved in that for him too? C'mon. I can't do everything.
The original point was SK hit a wall. The answer was he most definitely did not. And neither did ANY of our highest mpg guys for the last few years.
The question back was I can't agree until I see efficiency numbers during those games. They were provided. Efficiency numbers went up in the very late season games. The games when fatigue would start to show.
Then we moved on to outliers within those late season games to try to explain our positions...lol. come on man!
This is a very strange precedent for a sports fan message board. I would say I'm one of the bigger stat heads on here, but this isn't a scientific advisory panel. We don't have to spend all day looking up data to make our opinions valid. Would you like me to demand data supporting every claim you make? It's one thing to ask for data supporting claims that are statistical in nature. It's another to demand data for an intuitive thought.
I actually posted what is probably the most relevant statistical study you're going to find, and you've completely ignored it.
He did, or you did? I think he provided something to measure with. I think you presumed it was the measuring stick for his argument, and so looked to dismiss it.
But again, consider the precedent you're setting here. "I have to acknowledge that it is a valuable measure in this debate". That is absurd. You're turning this into a kangaroo court.
Then do that. If you aren't going to do it yourself, don't demand data of others.
Waterhead has provided data showing SK and Troy's late season production did not deteriorate. The steel man tactic is to acknowledge that, and move on to your intuitive arguments about why the data doesn't support his conclusions. Complaining that the data is incomplete is the straw man tactic. It doesn't move the debate forward whatsoever. What makes this worse is that you told him to provide data in the first place.
Your information is incomplete. I asked for example from other teams, examples of other players on our team, per 40 stats, usage rates, etc. None of which were provided.
Glad to be of service.You're funny.
That is not what you asked. You are now adding to what you asked. I provided what you asked.
I don't make any claims over or above what I said.
Practice time was not in any way a part of the discussion. I can see where it could be...but it wasn't when I responded first.
I'm not getting into the argument about coach knows best because there are a lot of great coaches out there who do things differently. Some of them play their guys hard and their players respond in March. So far...if we are trying to rest our guys for March...what are the results we can point to?
The data I asked for then was about other teams, other players on our team, per 40 minutes stats, usage stats, factoring in coaches who switch practice routines, etc. I never got any of that.
This whole thing is pointless in the end.
Cumberland and Clark are banged up. So that's why it'd be smart to limit them if possible. No one would argue that.
Evans has played 79 minutes last 2 games. He may or may not get tired from that. I personally don't think it's worth the gamble to find out if he will or won't. I don't think our Coach wants to find out the hard way either. And he has been clear about that as the coach here. Nothing indicates that will change. So this can be another topic we debate to death if we want, but it won't do us much good I don't think.
I am mentally fatigued from reading this argument
Dude. No. You provided PPG only for the last 5 games for those guys (which I never asked for). I asked for a whole bunch of other stuff after that that you still haven't provided. You don't have to provide it if you don't want to, but let's not act like I asked for what you gave and had every question answered. You can go back and read if you want but I asked for many other things.
Baloney. Show me when this conversation started that is what you asked? You may have asked for it later but not originally. I provided the data you asked for originally. You began to pick it apart by finding out liers for some reason.
What better data is there for checking late season performance on high minutes players. That is/was the topic.
Okay.
SK senior year season avg. .423 FG% and .348 3pt FG %. Over the last 5 games. .56% FG and .38% from 3. (both better)
TC Junior year. .394 FG% and .325% from 3. Over the last 5 games .40% and .41% (both better)
TC Senior year. .375 FG % and .324% from 3. Over the last 5 games .39% and .375% (both better)
Evans last year. .473 FG% and .418% from 3. Over the last 5 games .53% and .65%. (both better)
You didn't use the best information to make your case. As long as you can live with that, fine by me.
The point was brought up that SK must have hit a wall. In his last 5 games he averaged 22.2 points.
Troy last year averaged 14.5. The year before 20.6.
Evans last year 14.5.
All of those are above season averages. These are the players who played the most minutes over the course of the year. I don't see fatigue playing out here. Getting rest for guys who are injured is completely different from fatigue IMO.