WSU Round 2

[cincyguy13]

6 days to prepare. Houston is vulnerable. We could be in the drivers seat for the league with a win.

 

[Bcatfollower]

Right, it’s almost as if he’s played 220 minutes the last two week

Maybe he wouldn’t have had to if he finished a layup or two, didn’t turn the ball over 5 times a game, or shoot terribly from the field. He had 6 chances to end the ucf game

 

[Lefty]

Where have you gone Keith Williams & Chris Vogt ?
Would have to say Keith has been on bad end of some tough , if not B.S calls lately but while in there, has not done much.
Vogt likely has played more ball this year than last 2 combined & he doesn’t look the same physically as halfway thru the year. Suppose he’s gassed.
Great to see Harvey & MAW continue to progress.
Thought Diarra did a few good things today as well.

 

[Jon Rycek]

Maybe he wouldn’t have had to if he finished a layup or two, didn’t turn the ball over 5 times a game, or shoot terribly from the field. He had 6 chances to end the ucf game

You’re so funny

 

[Bcatfollower]

You’re so funny

You’re just good at making circular arguments

 

[skyblade]

Where have you gone Keith Williams & Chris Vogt ?
Would have to say Keith has been on bad end of some tough , if not B.S calls lately but while in there, has not done much.
Vogt likely has played more ball this year than last 2 combined & he doesn’t look the same physically as halfway thru the year. Suppose he’s gassed.
Great to see Harvey & MAW continue to progress.
Thought Diarra did a few good things today as well.

Vogt has trouble with bigger defenders like WSU has. He has a nice finishing touch, but he tends to just use his size to get close to the basket. When the defender can hold Vogt off or the other team doubles, Vogt has trouble.

Almost our whole bench played well this game. McNeal, Diarra, Harvey and Jaevin at times outplayed our starters. Davenport only got in briefly and didn't play well. It was the bench that kept us in the game with their run in the first half.

 

[Bcatfollower]

Vogt has trouble with bigger defenders like WSU has. He has a nice finishing touch, but he tends to just use his size to get close to the basket. When the defender can hold Vogt off or the other team doubles, Vogt has trouble.

Almost our whole bench played well this game. McNeal, Diarra, Harvey and Jaevin at times outplayed our starters. Davenport only got in briefly and didn't play well. It was the bench that kept us in the game with their run in the first half.

In games where Vogt is getting shut down you’re right that mamadou should get minutes. The bench carried us in the first half... hopefully McNeil making a basket breaks his funk.

 

[cincyguy13]

Vogt has trouble with bigger defenders like WSU has. He has a nice finishing touch, but he tends to just use his size to get close to the basket. When the defender can hold Vogt off or the other team doubles, Vogt has trouble.

Almost our whole bench played well this game. McNeal, Diarra, Harvey and Jaevin at times outplayed our starters. Davenport only got in briefly and didn't play well. It was the bench that kept us in the game with their run in the first half.

Vogt was fine against bigger defenders for the first half of the year. I know that was always your theory but I think he’s proven that wrong. Teams have the book out on him. He is a guy they scout for now. They are doubling at times and being pushing around. Let’s be honest, he’s never dealt with those things. On this current team, I just want Vogt to be able to make layups and dunks. Things he hasn’t been doing. If he does that, I’ll live with it.

 

[cincyguy13]

In games where Vogt is getting shut down you’re right that mamadou should get minutes. The bench carried us in the first half... hopefully McNeil making a basket breaks his funk.

I don’t know if brannen wants diarra to play man. Every time he’s in there, he goes zone. That way he doesn’t really have to think. At least that’s my theory. It’s seems to work against teams that can’t shot. If we can get diarra to run around and be energy guy, I think it helps the team.

 

[Bcatfollower]

I don’t know if brannen wants diarra to play man. Every time he’s in there, he goes zone. That way he doesn’t really have to think. At least that’s my theory. It’s seems to work against teams that can’t shot. If we can get diarra to run around and be energy guy, I think it helps the team.

True, but to skyblades point Vogt is getting exposed on high picks. So I guess it’s a pick your poison... when Vogt was scoring it made sense... not so much when he doesn’t

 

[cincrulz11]

Vogt played great defense today. That was Echenique's 2nd lowest ORTG all year. 2-10 from the floor and one of those was an and one with Vogt on the bench.


he also made other miss shots around the rim just with his size.



If Echenique would have had a game like his first one vs us we wouldn't have won.

 

[cincyguy13]

True, but to skyblades point Vogt is getting exposed on high picks. So I guess it’s a pick your poison... when Vogt was scoring it made sense... not so much when he doesn’t

I’ve always said it’s pick your poison. We don’t have any great two way post players. Is what it is. When Vogt doesn’t score it isn’t good for the team. Both will play a ton going forward and next year. If both succeed it’s great for the team. Impossible not to root for diarra. He’s one of the best personalities we’ve had.

 

[cincrulz11]

True, but to skyblades point Vogt is getting exposed on high picks. So I guess it’s a pick your poison... when Vogt was scoring it made sense... not so much when he doesn’t

nobody else can play the post against post up bigs. Echenique would have folded Diarra in half before dunking him and the ball through the rim.

 

[skyblade]

Vogt was fine against bigger defenders for the first half of the year. I know that was always your theory but I think he’s proven that wrong. Teams have the book out on him. He is a guy they scout for now. They are doubling at times and being pushing around. Let’s be honest, he’s never dealt with those things. On this current team, I just want Vogt to be able to make layups and dunks. Things he hasn’t been doing. If he does that, I’ll live with it.

His best games came against teams with a lot of smaller guys he could just push around. When he was scoring against bigger guys it was usually because Vogt got let open on a rotation and could finish. Vogt has shown he's an elite finisher, but if he has to dribble before he puts up his shot, he doesn't seem to have nearly the same success. It seems like teams have figured out the rotations to keep Vogt from getting open for the easy dunk.

Vogt hasn't really shown he's good at just backing his man down 1v1. Against bigger guys they keep him too far from the basket and he misses. Against smaller guys, teams have starting taking a page out of the Houston playbook and using the immediate hard double - which usually results in either a bad pass or TO from Vogt. Vogt did have a couple nice passes today, but overall has been a below average passer.

Vogt was grimacing and holding his left shoulder late in the game. So maybe there's more too it and he has an injury. But I think mostly Vogt isn't used to the physicality of the American and isn't really that good of a player.

 

[cincrulz11]

Vogt was grimacing and holding his left shoulder late in the game. So maybe there's more too it and he has an injury. But I think mostly Vogt isn't used to the physicality of the American and isn't really that good of a player.

I saw that and it didn't seem like he got injured on the play before he was holding his arm. Kinda made me think its injured but nobody has said anything.


Is that the same arm that Uconn almost ripped off?

 

[skyblade]

Vogt played great defense today. That was Echenique's 2nd lowest ORTG all year. 2-10 from the floor and one of those was an and one with Vogt on the bench.


he also made other miss shots around the rim just with his size.



If Echenique would have had a game like his first one vs us we wouldn't have won.

Vogt was very good at post defense today and has been good at post defense for most of conference play. The problem is when Vogt has to defend on the perimeter. The first half Vogt was once again exposed on pick and roll defense, second half he was somewhat better but still had some mistakes. I believe they got Vogt switched onto a guard twice and both times his man drained the three over him.

 

[cincyguy13]

His best games came against teams with a lot of smaller guys he could just push around. When he was scoring against bigger guys it was usually because Vogt got let open on a rotation and could finish. Vogt has shown he's an elite finisher, but if he has to dribble before he puts up his shot, he doesn't seem to have nearly the same success. It seems like teams have figured out the rotations to keep Vogt from getting open for the easy dunk.

Vogt hasn't really shown he's good at just backing his man down 1v1. Against bigger guys they keep him too far from the basket and he misses. Against smaller guys, teams have starting taking a page out of the Houston playbook and using the immediate hard double - which usually results in either a bad pass or TO from Vogt. Vogt did have a couple nice passes today, but overall has been a below average passer.

Vogt was grimacing and holding his left shoulder late in the game. So maybe there's more too it and he has an injury. But I think mostly Vogt isn't used to the physicality of the American and isn't really that good of a player.

I agree with the physicality of the league. He has to adjust. Just like Jarron had to adjust to people taking charges. Vogt was great for 3 months of the season. Against everyone, both big and small. We would have been lost without him. Hard to be too mad at him.

 

[skyblade]

I saw that and it didn't seem like he got injured on the play before he was holding his arm. Kinda made me think its injured but nobody has said anything.


Is that the same arm that Uconn almost ripped off?

Based on the lack of reaction from players and staff, I was thinking the same thing. It's probably sort of like Jarron's injured heel, they all know about it, but there's nothing to be done other than let him play through it. I forget which arm it was in the UConn game, but it was definitely the left one this game.

 

[cincyguy13]

Vogt was very good at post defense today and has been very good at post defense for most of conference play. The problem is when Vogt has to defend on the perimeter. The first half Vogt was once again exposed on pick and roll defense, second half he was somewhat better but still had some mistakes. I believe they got Vogt switched onto a guard twice and both times his man drained the three over him.

Honestly, if any big gets switch to a guard, they are either going to blow by them or shot a three. Bigs can’t guard quicker guys. This is my main problem with whole argument. 95 percent of bigs can’t do anything in the situation. I mean nba level bigs can’t guard guards. The fact that you expect bigs to be able to guard this is odd.

 

[skyblade]

I don’t know if brannen wants diarra to play man. Every time he’s in there, he goes zone. That way he doesn’t really have to think. At least that’s my theory. It’s seems to work against teams that can’t shot. If we can get diarra to run around and be energy guy, I think it helps the team.

He's played Diarra in man other times during the season. But I think there is something to what you say. Try to keep things simple for Diarra. Diarra has so much physical ability, but he still makes mistakes, so the simpler the gameplan is for him the better.

I think Diarra will get there, it's not so much mental as just lack of experience. The other guys have played so much organized basketball that some things become automatic. But for Diarra, nothing is automatic yet.