Mississippi State

[waterhead]

I was all for Jenifer starting at the beginning. He seemed more ready for the season to me. Coach said the lineup would change a lot over the course of the season, and he was true to that. We've had 3 different lineups I believe. So in the spirit of running things that way and rewarding the guys who are playing well and helping the team, why not move Broome back into the starting lineup? It's not a slight to Jenifer, just like it wasn't a slight to Broome earlier. If that's what we're doing, I just don't see how anyone can defend the idea of Jenifer starting over or playing as many minutes as Broome.

I would move Cane back into the lineup. Not only has he performed very well in big games...he seems more confident than any other player right now. That is huge!! Cane is a gamer...we need gamers!! We need that confidence on the floor that we can either make a comeback or that we are the best team when we walk through the door.

 

[cincrulz11]

I was all for Jenifer starting at the beginning. He seemed more ready for the season to me.

here is the thing for me though. knowing broome had more talent (and theres 0% chance mick didn't know) i'm letting him get as comfortable as possible early on. i want his confidence to grow, i want him to begin to jell with his teammates. we would have smoked those teams regardless, why not let him get acclimated and play with the other top 4 guys.



im just the type that feels you grow more from trying and failing than sitting and watching somebody else do it "the right way".



but anyhow it should all be over now. if its still the same tonight, the season is going to be tough on me and a lot of us.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

what you are saying is JJ is entirely reliant on his teammates to make him look better. thats the opposite of a pg's job.


jenifer doesn't bring anything else. he doesn't get rebounds, he doesn't get steals, he doesn't penetrate. his 3 point shooting % is an illusion. he hasn't yet faced any teams that have put any pressure on him anywhere on the court so he should have a low turnover rate.

Come on that is a bit unfair. Everyone on the team has to do their job. His job is to take care of the ball and distribute to his teammates so they can do theirs. He does have a low turn over rate. He certainly isn't the second coming of Nate Archibald but he is not why we have lost our last two games.

 

[cincrulz11]

Come on that is a bit unfair. Everyone on the team has to do their job. His job is to take care of the ball and distribute to his teammates so they can do theirs. He does have a low turn over rate. He certainly isn't the second coming of Nate Archibald but he is not why we have lost our last two games.

the other team doesn't even guard him. they sag all the way down off whatever side he's on. macura would even triple team gary because he never guarded jenifer. that is a problem for the offense.


what value does that provide? you are convinced evans can dribble the ball up to midcourt and start the offense, so if he can do that, what does jenifer give us?

 

[MacBearcat]

This MSU team has some real good players. They will be even better next year. One of their players was recruited by Kansas and went to MSU b/c his brother plays there. The boys better come ready to play!

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Come on that is a bit unfair. Everyone on the team has to do their job. His job is to take care of the ball and distribute to his teammates so they can do theirs. He does have a low turn over rate. He certainly isn't the second coming of Nate Archibald but he is not why we have lost our last two games.

In today's game, it's really tough on you if you have a guard/wing that offers zilch on offense. Between guys like Johnson, Guyn, Sanders, and Thomas, we've seen plenty of that over the years. Jenifer might be a little different just bc he is a PG, but he is limited...and that you cannot debate. I don't understand why you'd fight so hard for him to stay in his current role. Playing 23 minutes and saying "well I only turned it over 1 time but I have nothing else to show for the game" ins't a recipe to beat Top 25 teams. And he especially can't be on the floor if Scott, Brooks, or Nsoseme are our there. I'm not trying to knock him, or say he's our biggest problem. It has more to do with Broome. It isn't fair to have Jenifer in that position and it isn't fair to Broome either. The whole idea of "needing scoring on the 2nd unit" is a myth in college basketball. There's no such thing as a 2nd unit. In big games, we'll have at least 3 starters on the floor at all times if we can help it. So all you're really doing is capping Broome's ceiling. If he's on the bench to start each half, that's minimum of 6-8 minutes he can't play. And you wouldn't expect him to play straight through from there, so you're really limiting him to 28 or so minutes for no reason. He has the ability to go nuts. Jenifer doesn't. So by not even trying to establish that early, bc he isn't even on the floor, you're weaker for it. And it's by your own doing. Not sure how you can support that at this point.

 

[cincrulz11]

This MSU team has some real good players. They will be even better next year. One of their players was recruited by Kansas and went to MSU b/c his brother plays there. The boys better come ready to play!

they struggle to shoot from outside and they struggle with handling the ball. but they have great 2 point defense and force a lot of turnovers.


hmm this sounds familiar.



actually looking into their stats a bit more, they are better shooters than they've shown early this year. weatherspoon and peters are combined 7-47 from 3 this year but both shot 37% last year.

 

[waterhead]

the other team doesn't even guard him. they sag all the way down off whatever side he's on. macura would even triple team gary because he never guarded jenifer. that is a problem for the offense.


what value does that provide? you are convinced evans can dribble the ball up to midcourt and start the offense, so if he can do that, what does jenifer give us?

You can't just leave Jenifer open for 3. He's a career 37% right now....which is better than the career % of any Cronin player with 100 makes (i think outside of current players). I don't care if those are big games or patsies (because all players have been in both types of game). I will take open looks from Jenifer. He's small so he's not going to be as good in the lane but open 3's are a no brainer right now. Go ahead and sag off. Jenifer needs to keep pumping open 3's when get gets them at that %. It's a much better % than Troy or KJ for a career. He's not a volume shooter but he can make open 3's.

 

[cincrulz11]

You can't just leave Jenifer open for 3. He's a career 37% right now....which is better than the career % of any Cronin player with 100 makes (i think). I don't care if those are big games or patsies (because all players have been in both types of game)...I will take open looks from Jenifer. He's small so he's not going to be as good in the lane but open 3's are a no brainer right now. Go ahead and sag off. Jenifer needs to keep pumping open 3's when get gets them at that %. It's a much better % than Troy or KJ for a career. He's not a volume shooter but he can make open 3's.

here is the thing with statistics in small samples. they are extremely misleading. teams do leave jenifer open and its for a reason.


jenifer has played in 71 career games. in 3 of them he's 11-14 from 3. the other 68 games he's 27-88 which is 30%. and if i know that number, other teams know that number.

 

[waterhead]

You can't just leave Jenifer open for 3. He's a career 37% right now....which is better than the career % of any Cronin player with 100 makes (i think outside of current players). I don't care if those are big games or patsies (because all players have been in both types of game). I will take open looks from Jenifer. He's small so he's not going to be as good in the lane but open 3's are a no brainer right now. Go ahead and sag off. Jenifer needs to keep pumping open 3's when get gets them at that %. It's a much better % than Troy or KJ for a career. He's not a volume shooter but he can make open 3's.

Troy, KJ and every other UC player under Cronin has had a chance to pad 3 point % stats with patsy games. Jenifer has made a better % overall than any other player not on the current team other than Parker I think. I am not sure he would if he became a volume shooter...but I don't think anyone is lobbying for that. Let him shoot 1 or two open shots each game. If his % goes way down then we can talk.

 

[MacBearcat]

I still wonder why they didn't redshirt either Nsoseme or Diarra. Neither of them is ready, which is evident by them never playing in big games. It would've given them some time to develop an offensive game or at the very least bulk up.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Troy, KJ and every other UC player under Cronin has had a chance to pad 3 point % stats with patsy games. Jenifer has made a better % overall than any other player not on the current team other than Parker I think. I am not sure he would if he became a volume shooter...but I don't think anyone is lobbying for that. Let him shoot 1 or two open shots each game. If his % goes way down then we can talk.

Yeah Jenifer shouldn't get taken out of the rotation or anything. We know for a fact he'll get minutes. So he needs to take open looks and produce while he's out there.

 

[waterhead]

here is the thing with statistics in small samples. they are extremely misleading. teams do leave jenifer open and its for a reason.


jenifer has played in 71 career games. in 3 of them he's 11-14 from 3. the other 68 games he's 27-88 which is 30%. and if i know that number, other teams know that number.

KJ was a volume shooter at 31% last year. Troy was .325. That includes patsies. Take their best games from them and see what their % was.

Those are BIg samples. Jenifer can make 3's at a low % just like our best shooting wings could have in the past.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

In today's game, it's really tough on you if you have a guard/wing that offers zilch on offense. Between guys like Johnson, Guyn, Sanders, and Thomas, we've seen plenty of that over the years. Jenifer might be a little different just bc he is a PG, but he is limited...and that you cannot debate. I don't understand why you'd fight so hard for him to stay in his current role. Playing 23 minutes and saying "well I only turned it over 1 time but I have nothing else to show for the game" ins't a recipe to beat Top 25 teams. And he especially can't be on the floor if Scott, Brooks, or Nsoseme are our there. I'm not trying to knock him, or say he's our biggest problem. It has more to do with Broome. It isn't fair to have Jenifer in that position and it isn't fair to Broome either. The whole idea of "needing scoring on the 2nd unit" is a myth in college basketball. There's no such thing as a 2nd unit. In big games, we'll have at least 3 starters on the floor at all times if we can help it. So all you're really doing is capping Broome's ceiling. If he's on the bench to start each half, that's minimum of 6-8 minutes he can't play. And you wouldn't expect him to play straight through from there, so you're really limiting him to 28 or so minutes for no reason. He has the ability to go nuts. Jenifer doesn't. So by not even trying to establish that early, bc he isn't even on the floor, you're weaker for it. And it's by your own doing. Not sure how you can support that at this point.

Jake that is not my position at all. I have posted on here that I want Evans to run the PG. Broome to run the wing. My feeling is we are taking away from Broome's game by making him be a distributor instead of a scorer. With our roster as it is JJ will have to be in the rotation. I am not advocating he be a major component but he will need to play only because we are limited in true PG's. I think we can get 15-20 PPG at of Broome on the wing. Evans has issues being the alpha dog and to Me Cumberland has regressed from what I thought he would be. Washington has been useless. Clark is really the only player in our rotation that has shown any consistency. Again JJ is the least of our issues right now.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Jake that is not my position at all. I have posted on here that I want Evans to run the PG. Broome to run the wing. My feeling is we are taking away from Broome's game by making him be a distributor instead of a scorer. With our roster as it is JJ will have to be in the rotation. I am not advocating he be a major component but he will need to play only because we are limited in true PG's. I think we can get 15-20 PPG at of Broome on the wing. Evans has issues being the alpha dog and to Me Cumberland has regressed from what I thought he would be. Washington has been useless. Clark is really the only player in our rotation that has shown any consistency. Again JJ is the least of our issues right now.

Oh ok my bad. So we're close to being on the same page.

 

[waterhead]

KJ was a volume shooter at 31% last year. Troy was .325. That includes patsies. Take their best games from them and see what their % was.

Those are BIg samples. Jenifer can make 3's at a low % just like our best shooting wings could have in the past.

Go look at Dixon and Sanders. Go look at SK and Wright. Go look at Thomas and Bishop. Jenifer is not much worse by any stretch. Caupain and Johnson.

Bishop was one of our best. Are you kidding me??

 

[cincrulz11]

Troy, KJ and every other UC player under Cronin has had a chance to pad 3 point % stats with patsy games.

troy is a great comparison actually for this. when he only had to shoot wide open 3's (his sophomore year) he shot 40.8% for the season on 76 attempts.



but he was nowhere near a 40% shooter and that number came from the fact it was a small sample size and influenced greatly by a few hot games.


over the next 2 seasons he took 321 3's and shot 32%.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I think what really irritates me is that JJ has caught about 2 threads worth of heck on hear and the other players are getting a semi pass. Cumberland has been below average. Clark while steeping up on the glass has missed many makeable shots. Evans and Cumberland were throwing up bricks against Florida. And please don't get me started on Washington. Forcing shots, Turn overs and no defense. Our PG play did not lose either game. Rebounding, turnovers and poor defense cost us both games. Not to mention our shooting. Somehow you all feel changing out JJ and Broome will correct all that. I don't care if Broome plays 40 minutes a game if the other players don't start playing well we won't make the tourney.

 

[cincrulz11]

KJ was a volume shooter at 31% last year. Troy was .325. That includes patsies. Take their best games from them and see what their % was.

Those are BIg samples. Jenifer can make 3's at a low % just like our best shooting wings could have in the past.

their best games won't influence their final number that much because of the total attempts they had.


if you want another name from our current team its cumberland. which im guessing is why he can struggle for long stretches, he's not that good of a 3 point shooter yet. take out 3 hot games from evans and he's still over 36%.


100 attempts is nowhere near the amount for us to say a guy is a good shooter.

 

[waterhead]

troy is a great comparison actually for this. when he only had to shoot wide open 3's (his sophomore year) he shot 40.8% for the season on 76 attempts.



but he was nowhere near a 40% shooter and that number came from the fact it was a small sample size and influenced greatly by a few hot games.


over the next 2 seasons he took 321 3's and shot 32%.

Good lord really!!! You think Troy only got wide open shots in his f%king soph year? Really?? A few hot games?? REally? OK...I guess I know what I am working with here. Someone who is willing to manipulate any stat they can to make a point.