Mississippi State

[Bcatfollower]

I've read on this board for yeeeeaaaaaars that we need to not play two bigs, clear the lane and run more iso plays. The overwhelming thought is our offense is horrible, the weave doesnt work, the bigs are incapable, we want to see what we see in other teams which are guards allowed to dribble and get to the rim. So when Mick actually uses that method, why the complaints?

I think the complaint by cincy paw isn't that mick tries the iso, cause you're right in that its better than what they normally do, its that mick realizes we have 3 out of 5 offensive liabilities on the floor and in close games he is forced to use iso because he doesn't trust the scotts/fredricks, jenifers, and brooks/nsoseme to get a decent shot. Then the overall complaint will be with the lack of basketball talent, compared to elite programs. How does howland bring that talent to miss st?

 

[david aka the TYZ]

I think the complaint by cincy paw isn't that mick tries the iso, cause you're right in that its better than what they normally do, its that mick realizes we have 3 out of 5 offensive liabilities on the floor and in close games he is forced to use iso because he doesn't trust the scotts/fredricks, jenifers, and brooks/nsoseme to get a decent shot. Then the overall complaint will be with the lack of basketball talent, compared to elite programs. How does howland bring that talent to miss st?

So if we dont have the talent and 3/5 of our lineup cant score, what strategy do you use? Try to outscore a team or try to play elite defense on them and keep them under 60 points? I'd love to get better players in here too, specifically bigs that know how to put the ball in the hoop and have bulk to them to not get outmanned in the paint, but they aren't here. I'm not going to go into all the reasons Mick struggles to bring players in, it's a tired debate, but once the season starts you can only do what the players on your bench are capable of. We're coming off back to back 30 win seasons, we're 9-2 with considerable less talent this year maybe it's time to trust that Mick is going to actually implement the best gameplan he can to beat the team lined up opposite us. We aren't going to win every game. There are going to be better teams we face. I can promise you though, no scenario you draw up will this team start scoring 80 points a night, so it will fall back to defense. I want to win, I don't care how we do it.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

I think the complaint by cincy paw isn't that mick tries the iso, cause you're right in that its better than what they normally do, its that mick realizes we have 3 out of 5 offensive liabilities on the floor and in close games he is forced to use iso because he doesn't trust the scotts/fredricks, jenifers, and brooks/nsoseme to get a decent shot. Then the overall complaint will be with the lack of basketball talent, compared to elite programs. How does howland bring that talent to miss st?

Oh and to your question, we had better talent last year so how did Mick bring that talent in? Howland went to three straight final fours, including a title game. His name carries a little more weight than Mick as does the SEC to the AAC. We've still outscored this team in 80 minutes played. Maybe we're just frustrated after a loss and should leave it at that. Theres plenty to critique and that's why we come on the board but I think its important to be realistic in our complaints

 

[Bcatfollower]

So if we dont have the talent and 3/5 of our lineup cant score, what strategy do you use? Try to outscore a team or try to play elite defense on them and keep them under 60 points? I'd love to get better players in here too, specifically bigs that know how to put the ball in the hoop and have bulk to them to not get outmanned in the paint, but they aren't here. I'm not going to go into all the reasons Mick struggles to bring players in, it's a tired debate, but once the season starts you can only do what the players on your bench are capable of. We're coming off back to back 30 win seasons, we're 9-2 with considerable less talent this year maybe it's time to trust that Mick is going to actually implement the best gameplan he can to beat the team lined up opposite us. We aren't going to win every game. There are going to be better teams we face. I can promise you though, no scenario you draw up will this team start scoring 80 points a night, so it will fall back to defense. I want to win, I don't care how we do it.

Agree, defense is the way to go with the caliber of player mick brings in, he has to do it that way. Super athletic hard nose players, but other than the few exceptions or the projects that pan out they lack offensive skill, last year was probably the best group of offense. But what some people are complaining is that the methods mick is forced to use to compete, hard good d, only takes you so far when you play talented teams. You can never get to far down cause you can't make enough shots to come back and consistently need to hope you out rebound other teams.

It's been this way year over year.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

Agree, defense is the way to go with the caliber of player mick brings in, he has to do it that way. Super athletic hard nose players, but other than the few exceptions or the projects that pan out they lack offensive skill, last year was probably the best group of offense. But what some people are complaining is that the methods mick is forced to use to compete, hard good d, only takes you so far when you play talented teams. You can never get to far down cause you can't make enough shots to come back and consistently need to hope you out rebound other teams.

It's been this way year over year.

I don't disagree with any of this. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend Mick is a bad coach. My post actually was to point out the hypocrisy of what people complain about.

 

[Bcatfollower]

I don't disagree with any of this. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend Mick is a bad coach. My post actually was to point out the hypocrisy of what people complain about.

I get it. I think he does a great job with what he has. If he could get better players he could be elite.

But you're right. I think we all get frustrated because we want wins and top 25 recognition. Its easy to be critical but in reality we lost to a more talented top 25 team.

 

[Alum2013]

I've read on this board for yeeeeaaaaaars that we need to not play two bigs, clear the lane and run more iso plays. The overwhelming thought is our offense is horrible, the weave doesnt work, the bigs are incapable, we want to see what we see in other teams which are guards allowed to dribble and get to the rim. So when Mick actually uses that method, why the complaints?

Last year we had 4 guys who could take their man 1 on 1 and score at a pretty decent percentage. Last year we had 5 starters who could hit open 3s at a good percentage so if said 1 on 1 man gets doubled there's someone to kick it out to for an open three.

This year we have 1.5 people (William's needs to continue to show it) who can go 1 on 1 and only 2 people they have to guard at 3. If Cumberland is the one going 1 on 1 the enemy team doesn't have to guard Scott, Brooks, or William's at the 3. That makes iso ball a really stupid game this year.

They're 2 completely different teams and you can't compare last years offense in any way to this offense.

 

[Alum2013]

I get it. I think he does a great job with what he has. If he could get better players he could be elite.

But you're right. I think we all get frustrated because we want wins and top 25 recognition. Its easy to be critical but in reality we lost to a more talented top 25 team.

How much of that is the chicken and egg effect? Mick has only ever shown to coach one way. Even last year with 2 NBA players our offense didn't really change, we just had people who could actually make shots and not get blocked by air/rim/backboard on half their bunny shots.
If you're an offensive player why would ever come here?

 

[TheLongHaul]

broome can't play like he has the past 2 games for us to be successful. he has to be aggressive and attack. he can't try to be a pass only guy its just not him. he's been hesitant to look for his shot and drive and when he plays like that he just turns the ball over. his last turnover should have been a shot, i have on idea what he was doing.


jenifer has limitations and a game like this showed it. jenifer played well, broome was terrible but at the end of the day their lines were

jenifer - 2 points 4 assists 1 TO

Broome 2 points 3 assists 2 TO

I've said this before but Broome has been ruined. It happened last year. You recruit a high volume scorer and then tell him he is going to come out every time he makes a mistake. His confidence is zero right now.

Nothing against Jenifer but he is severely limited. I can't remember the last good game he had against top competition. Mick should have known at he beginning of the season that he needed Broome for this team to be successful but he is too afraid to take chances.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

Last year we had 4 guys who could take their man 1 on 1 and score at a pretty decent percentage. Last year we had 5 starters who could hit open 3s at a good percentage so if said 1 on 1 man gets doubled there's someone to kick it out to for an open three.

This year we have 1.5 people (William's needs to continue to show it) who can go 1 on 1 and only 2 people they have to guard at 3. If Cumberland is the one going 1 on 1 the enemy team doesn't have to guard Scott, Brooks, or William's at the 3. That makes iso ball a really stupid game this year.

They're 2 completely different teams and you can't compare last years offense in any way to this offense.

My post isnt comparing last years offense to this years

 

[cincycpaw]

So if we dont have the talent and 3/5 of our lineup cant score, what strategy do you use? Try to outscore a team or try to play elite defense on them and keep them under 60 points? I'd love to get better players in here too, specifically bigs that know how to put the ball in the hoop and have bulk to them to not get outmanned in the paint, but they aren't here. I'm not going to go into all the reasons Mick struggles to bring players in, it's a tired debate, but once the season starts you can only do what the players on your bench are capable of. We're coming off back to back 30 win seasons, we're 9-2 with considerable less talent this year maybe it's time to trust that Mick is going to actually implement the best gameplan he can to beat the team lined up opposite us. We aren't going to win every game. There are going to be better teams we face. I can promise you though, no scenario you draw up will this team start scoring 80 points a night, so it will fall back to defense. I want to win, I don't care how we do it.

You cannot run iso for 12 minutes of a game with 2 players and expect to win. I love the use of iso throughout. And it’s much better than it was, but we get no penetration and we have very little motion (other than that stupid weave at the 3 point line).

 

[Alum2013]

My post isnt comparing last years offense to this years

True. But I was saying last year iso ball/drive and kick was a very possible offense for us but we still seemed to clog the paint game in and game out for the majority of it.

 

[Bcatfollower]

How much of that is the chicken and egg effect? Mick has only ever shown to coach one way. Even last year with 2 NBA players our offense didn't really change, we just had people who could actually make shots and not get blocked by air/rim/backboard on half their bunny shots.
If you're an offensive player why would ever come here?

You're probably right. Thats probably why we haven't seen significant jumps in recruiting despite the season successes. I think outside of a few guys there has been a lack of overall player development and getting to the next level that good high school players want. Or a system they think they can succeed in.

But that being said, almost all college players are not playing in the nba

 

[david aka the TYZ]

You cannot run iso for 12 minutes of a game with 2 players and expect to win. I love the use of iso throughout. And it’s much better than it was, but we get no penetration and we have very little motion (other than that stupid weave at the 3 point line).

We had both bigs in foul trouble, the refs were calling anything and everything. Smart coaching is to attack a defense and get those calls yourself which is what we tried last night.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

True. But I was saying last year iso ball/drive and kick was a very possible offense for us but we still seemed to clog the paint game in and game out for the majority of it.

So you wanted iso ball last year when you had two very capable bigs who could score in the paint but not this year when you don't have bigs that can score in the paint?

 

[justinhub2003]

The reality is.... we needed a 3rd option and we got very little in that regard.

Jarron’s TO were fixable but really frustrating.

Just not a good game from Scott. His mid range jumper turned into a line drive.

Also a game where needed cane the scorer, not the facilitator. Need him to attack attack attack.

All that said, Keith Williams played well for the most part.

We played with house money and all this won’t matter if we take care of business on Wednesday. But it does put some pressure in us to win and now UCLA will be really inspired to win

 

[Alum2013]

So you wanted iso ball last year when you had two very capable bigs who could score in the paint but not this year when you don't have bigs that can score in the paint?

3 points are always better then 2. An open 3 for our team last year from our starting 5 was probably around the same % as a contested 2. We could/should have ran an offense similar to what Villanova was doing. They obviously had a little more talent but I dont think that much more. Jay Wright is also a different level of coach but our team last year still got stagnant so many times.

And I'm not saying our offense should have only been iso but it didn't really change at all from any other years team even though it was immensely more offensively talented.

 

[cincrulz11]

I've read on this board for yeeeeaaaaaars that we need to not play two bigs, clear the lane and run more iso plays. The overwhelming thought is our offense is horrible, the weave doesnt work, the bigs are incapable, we want to see what we see in other teams which are guards allowed to dribble and get to the rim. So when Mick actually uses that method, why the complaints?

nobody wants to see a 1 pass then 0 movement offense. people want to see clear the lane, spread the offense, player movement, high pnrs, off the ball screens, and so on.


giving a guy the ball and having him go 1v5 over and over isn't going to work. didn't work last year, won't work this year. won't work any year you don't have a first team all american like SK.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

Let me be clear, I'm not suggesting we be an iso offense. Quite the contrary. If you read any of my posts rewarding why I don't think Cane is the player everyone makes him out to be, you'll know that. I'm just calling out the different arguments here. You have to be versatile on offense and be able to do anything and everything regarding the opposing defense and differing strengths of your players. Last night we went to iso because when all else fails you try to get to the line and with the refs we had last night that was the best strategy.

 

[cincrulz11]

Jarron’s TO were fixable but really frustrating.

Jarron has a problem and it goes largely ignored. he's had a TO% of 20+ in 8 games this season. he gets so sloppy with the ball. his turnover right under our own rim is inexcusable for anybody.


He led our team in turnovers last year, he leads them this year by a large margin.