Scrimmage

[L-T]

I said Troy is a nice player. He's one of our best players during this 4 year period. Is he a great player? Hell no.....at least not yet. SK wasn't great either, until he put together an all-american senior season and elevated how he is now viewed. Maybe Troy will do the same.

I really don't get everyone's fascination with Troy to be honest with you. He is a shoot first point guard who is not a good shooter. His percentages have certainly not warranted him firing up all the threes that he takes. He often walks the ball up the court looking over at Mick for a play call. I've even seen Mick yell at him to run many times. When you have no shooters and you have teammates who can at least get out in transition, why walk up the court and get into a set offense that doesn't exist? He's never been a good on-the-ball defender , but he has improved since his freshman year and is a pretty good at getting deflections now. All-in-all, thank God that we've had him these last three years. He has been one of the better offensive options on a team with minimal offensive options.

As far as Satterfield is concerned, he came in and won the point guard position, even though one of our greatest ever players...Steve Logan....was on the team and was a year ahead of him. Sophomore Steve Logan came off the bench while freshman Kenny Satterfield ran the team and averaged almost 30 minutes a game playing time. If Satterfield had been running the point these last three years, I believe our results would have been much better. It's a hypothetical opinion and we'll never know, but for my money, I'd take Sattoptions any day.

 

[#BearcatNation]

Chill, guys. We were talking about Caupain, and L-T said "Think Satterfield" when we were discussing point guards. My only point was Satt isn't worlds better than Troy. Of course it spiraled and got pretty off-topic (I'll take the blame for that), but I don't think it's a completely ridiculous discussion.

I'm not sure why it matters what we "focus" on. I think we're all ready for the season, but it doesn't mean that's ALL you're allowed to discuss. I love talking UC hoops, anything from the Jack Twyman days all the way to what our 2019 squad is shaping up to be.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Chill, guys. We were talking about Caupain, and L-T said "Think Satterfield" when we were discussing point guards. My only point was Satt isn't worlds better than Troy. Of course it spiraled and got pretty off-topic (I'll take the blame for that), but I don't think it's a completely ridiculous discussion.

I'm not sure why it matters what we "focus" on. I think we're all ready for the season, but it doesn't mean that's ALL you're allowed to discuss. I love talking UC hoops, anything from the Jack Twyman days all the way to what our 2019 squad is shaping up to be.

No need to take any blame. We all can see how the convo evolved and no one was deliberately taking it off-topic in an effort to troll. No harm, no foul in my book.

 

[L-T]

What a wasteful conversation. The season is about a week and a half away and we are debating if we would rather have Satterfield or Caupain? Focus should be on Bellamine or the scrimmage we just had.

This discussion is far more interesting than Bellamine and we've already discussed the scrimmage thoroughly. Chill out! It's a Bearcat basketball discussion. When the season gets going, we'll move on to other topics.

 

[waterhead]

I said Troy is a nice player. He's one of our best players during this 4 year period. Is he a great player? Hell no.....at least not yet. SK wasn't great either, until he put together an all-american senior season and elevated how he is now viewed. Maybe Troy will do the same.

I really don't get everyone's fascination with Troy to be honest with you. He is a shoot first point guard who is not a good shooter. His percentages have certainly not warranted him firing up all the threes that he takes. He often walks the ball up the court looking over at Mick for a play call. I've even seen Mick yell at him to run many times. When you have no shooters and you have teammates who can at least get out in transition, why walk up the court and get into a set offense that doesn't exist? He's never been a good on-the-ball defender , but he has improved since his freshman year and is a pretty good at getting deflections now. All-in-all, thank God that we've had him these last three years. He has been one of the better offensive options on a team with minimal offensive options.

As far as Satterfield is concerned, he came in and won the point guard position, even though one of our greatest ever players...Steve Logan....was on the team and was a year ahead of him. Sophomore Steve Logan came off the bench while freshman Kenny Satterfield ran the team and averaged almost 30 minutes a game playing time. If Satterfield had been running the point these last three years, I believe our results would have been much better. It's a hypothetical opinion and we'll never know, but for my money, I'd take Sattoptions any day.

I think it's a little bit lofty to equate being great with SK's All American season as being the standard. I thought SK was great before that...he just kept building as Troy has been doing. I think first team all conference is pretty great and pre season POY is as good as it gets in your conference.

The shame to me is those accomplishments are being marginalized due to many factors outside of his control as well as unreasonable fan expectations.

 

[L-T]

I think it's a little bit lofty to equate being great with SK's All American season as being the standard. I thought SK was great before that...he just kept building as Troy has been doing. I think first team all conference is pretty great and pre season POY is as good as it gets in your conference.

The shame to me is those accomplishments are being marginalized due to many factors outside of his control as well as unreasonable fan expectations.

WH, SK was limited by the same things Troy was. He didn't let that stop him and he worked hard to overcome his weaknesses and become a 1st team all-american. He then kept working hard to overcome the NBA opinions that said he wasn't good enough. That is greatness. His character and attitude were a big reason why he became great. I've seen lots of "great" Bearcats in my lifetime. They stand out in my memory. To date, Troy has done little to qualify to be called great. He's not even a member of our 1000 point club yet....after 3 seasons. Maybe after 4 years, I'll be able to refer to him as one of our all-time greats. But certainly not yet. He's a good player and an ok point guard. For the record, I probably wouldn't have called Kenyon great after three seasons, but I certainly did after 4.

The sad thing is that Mick has recruited so few players who were destined for greatness, that I think many of our fans have forgotten what greatness really is. If we're just talking about the Cronin era, then I would have to call Troy great. He certainly is one of Mick's best players!

 

[waterhead]

WH, SK was limited by the same things Troy was. He didn't let that stop him and he worked hard to overcome his weaknesses and become a 1st team all-american. He then kept working hard to overcome the NBA opinions that said he wasn't good enough. That is greatness. His character and attitude were a big reason why he became great. I've seen lots of "great" Bearcats in my lifetime. They stand out in my memory. To date, Troy has done little to qualify to be called great. He's not even a member of our 1000 point club yet....after 3 seasons. Maybe after 4 years, I'll be able to refer to him as one of our all-time greats. But certainly not yet. He's a good player and an ok point guard. For the record, I probably wouldn't have called Kenyon great after three seasons, but I certainly did after 4.

The sad thing is that Mick has recruited so few players who were destined for greatness, that I think many of our fans have forgotten what greatness really is. If we're just talking about the Cronin era, then I would have to call Troy great. He certainly is one of Mick's best players!

I understand "great" is very subjective but I guess so are things like "nice player" and "ok" and "good". However, all conference selection and pre season POY would seem to me to put him into a different category of adjective than could also be used to describe almost any scholarship player on our team.

I will settle on very good to very very good...lol!! Semantics I guess...but I think he deserves it IMO. If he improves like he did the first three years I think he will end up being conference POY. However, I don't think we will have to rely on him as much this year so who knows. 7 assists per game would look pretty good too if he didn't increase his point average. Winning more games would also help.

 

[L-T]

I understand "great" is very subjective but I guess so are things like "nice player" and "ok" and "good". However, all conference selection and pre season POY would seem to me to put him into a different category of adjective than could also be used to describe almost any scholarship player on our team.

I will settle on very good to very very good...lol!! Semantics I guess...but I think he deserves it IMO. If he improves like he did the first three years I think he will end up being conference POY. However, I don't think we will have to rely on him as much this year so who knows. 7 assists per game would look pretty good too if he didn't increase his point average. Winning more games would also help.

I believe Ellis was preseason 1st team all AAC last year. How did that work out? You can never assume a thing with Cronin's teams. I'll wait till he is great before I call him great. I'm going to go with good to almost very good for now....lol!

 

[L-T]

Three things I must see to elevate my opinion of troy.

1. Better shooting.
2. Better at finding the open man and delivering the pass.
3. Better defense.


I believe we'll definitely see a better shooter. I'm not so confident about 2 and 3.

 

[waterhead]

I believe Ellis was preseason 1st team all AAC last year. How did that work out? You can never assume a thing with Cronin's teams. I'll wait till he is great before I call him great. I'm going to go with good to almost very good for now....lol!

Troy has already been first team all conference.

You have laid some pretty high praise on a couple of other guards after scrimmages but you are in "wait and see" mode for a player who's been our top producer in actual games?

Anyhow, I'm not sure Troy will meet your expectations but I just hope the team meets all of ours this year. The fan base obviously needs it.

 

[L-T]

Troy has already been first team all conference.

You have laid some pretty high praise on a couple of other guards after scrimmages but you are in "wait and see" mode for a player who's been our top producer in actual games?

Anyhow, I'm not sure Troy will meet your expectations but I just hope the team meets all of ours this year. The fan base obviously needs it.

Lol! I definitely saw greatness in those two scrimmages. I can't help it if the coach can't see it.

 

[#BearcatNation]

Lol! I definitely saw greatness in those two scrimmages. I can't help it if the coach can't see it.

Hahahahaha. I mean, you definitely see the players more than the coach, right?

I'm really curious now. If you were the coach (I'm already cringing), how would you distribute minutes this year in regards to the backcourt?

 

[L-T]

Hahahahaha. I mean, you definitely see the players more than the coach, right?

I'm really curious now. If you were the coach (I'm already cringing), how would you distribute minutes this year in regards to the backcourt?

I don't know. I don't think minutes. Mick is from a different planet. I would watch how things develop. Troy is obviously eating up nearly half the minutes at either the 1 or the 2. The rest of the minutes are a toss up. If KJ is the same old KJ, then I'm looking for something else. If JJ has truly blossomed, then I'm finding him some minutes and seeing how he and Troy are together. Maybe Cumberland snatches serious minutes. Maybe Evans plays some two. We have options. One thing I am not doing if I am coach, is just blindly giving minutes to a senior just because he is a senior. I would play the best players.

 

[GoCats88]

I don't know. I don't think minutes. Mick is from a different planet. I would watch how things develop. Troy is obviously eating up nearly half the minutes at either the 1 or the 2. The rest of the minutes are a toss up. If KJ is the same old KJ, then I'm looking for something else. If JJ has truly blossomed, then I'm finding him some minutes and seeing how he and Troy are together. Maybe Cumberland snatches serious minutes. Maybe Evans plays some two. We have options. One thing I am not doing if I am coach, is just blindly giving minutes to a senior just because he is a senior. I would play the best players.

So you're saying you'd still give Troy 34-36ish min a game

 

[L-T]

So you're saying you'd still give Troy 34-36ish min a game

I actually said half....which could be 40ish.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I actually said half....which could be 40ish.

Excited to see how JJ has spent the summer. He has a real opportunity this year. Everything I hear is he is practicing very well. The team should be much more capable of spreading the floor this year. All 5 starters have range out to the 3 point line. JJ should have plenty of room to drive and dish. Hope he spent some time on his defense. I guess I'm old school but if you don't guard you don't play

 

[L-T]

Excited to see how JJ has spent the summer. He has a real opportunity this year. Everything I hear is he is practicing very well. The team should be much more capable of spreading the floor this year. All 5 starters have range out to the 3 point line. JJ should have plenty of room to drive and dish. Hope he spent some time on his defense. I guess I'm old school but if you don't guard you don't play

Troy has been playing, so Mick doesn't penalize everyone for their defense. Since Rubles, SK, and JJ left, he has had to go to this zone the last couple years because we don't have the lock-down defenders that we once had. KJ is as close as we got, but his other deficiencies have prevented him from getting a ton of minutes. Troy gets deflections, but when it comes to guarding, most guards get around him pretty easy.

 

[UCBearcats]

Troy has already been first team all conference.

You have laid some pretty high praise on a couple of other guards after scrimmages but you are in "wait and see" mode for a player who's been our top producer in actual games?

Anyhow, I'm not sure Troy will meet your expectations but I just hope the team meets all of ours this year. The fan base obviously needs it.

He's got you here LT. You and I generally agree but I think you're way off base with this Troy thing. I'm not saying Troy is the second coming of Steve Logan or Satterfield but there's no doubt he's the best player on this stretch of Mick Cronin teams.

Troy is our guy on this current team. He's made some big shots in his career and he's been the guy who has the ball at the end of the game. He's not a superstar but he's a very good player.

Anyways, it is a little odd that you anointed JJ as the savior of UC basketball after seeing him play in one scrimmage yet you continue to knock TC year after year when all he does is prove time and time again that he's the best player on our roster.

What would TC need to do to get your stamp of approval?

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Troy has been playing, so Mick doesn't penalize everyone for their defense. Since Rubles, SK, and JJ left, he has had to go to this zone the last couple years because we don't have the lock-down defenders that we once had. KJ is as close as we got, but his other deficiencies have prevented him from getting a ton of minutes. Troy gets deflections, but when it comes to guarding, most guards get around him pretty easy.

TC definitely needs work on stopping dribble drive penetration. Mick plays TC because even with his defensive issues he is still a all league performer and the team performs better with him on the floor. This isn't a accountability issue.

 

[L-T]

He's got you here LT. You and I generally agree but I think you're way off base with this Troy thing. I'm not saying Troy is the second coming of Steve Logan or Satterfield but there's no doubt he's the best player on this stretch of Mick Cronin teams.

Troy is our guy on this current team. He's made some big shots in his career and he's been the guy who has the ball at the end of the game. He's not a superstar but he's a very good player.

Anyways, it is a little odd that you anointed JJ as the savior of UC basketball after seeing him play in one scrimmage yet you continue to knock TC year after year when all he does is prove time and time again that he's the best player on our roster.

What would TC need to do to get your stamp of approval?

Lol....I laid out my three requirements for Troy to get my stamp of approval somewhere on one of these threads. But lets clarify something. I have said that he is a good player. I have said he is one of our best players. I just don't like him as a point guard.

I have to disagree with you on him being our best player though. I think Gary Clark was our best player last year. He was defensive player of the year. He was second on the team in scoring. He shot over 50% from two and from three. He was an outstanding rebounder and shot blocker. He had almost half of the assist total that Troy had, even though Troy had the ball in his hands the bulk of the time. And, he had more steals than Troy, which is pretty sad that a power forward can out-steal a point guard.

Troy was a 30-some percent shooter, failed in most of end of game situations where success would have given us the win. In spite of having three high percentage shooters inside....Clark, Ellis, and Deberry, Troy was launching by far the most shots at his 30 percent clip. Our next two higher volume shooters were Cobb and Evans, which demonstrates our point guard's inability to get the ball to our higher percentage shooters inside and settling for the "pass around the 3-pt. line" mentality until one of them takes the hurried three-pointer as the shot clock runs out. Shaq, Clark and Ellis, plus Cobb, KJ and Evans, could all get out and run, but Troy would frequently not run, even though there were many times where Mick screamed at him to run. He is obviously not comfortable in transition. He averaged 1 steal per game. Come on?

Yes, I get it. He was first team all-league. I'm crazy. But, the stats don't lie. My vote goes to Gary Clark as our best.