Scrimmage

[jacobkdoyle]

I liked Satterfield a lot, but you seem to think Satterfield was a far better point guard than Caupain. Have to disagree. Stats back it up, too.

Caupain: 40% FG, 35% 3pt, 79% FT, 2.1 AST:TO ratio, 2.1 fouls per 40 min
Satterfield: 40% FG, 32% 3pt, 78% FT, 1.6 AST:TO ratio, 3.1 fouls per 40 min

Really the only thing Satterfield had on Caupain was steals (1.8 per 40 min to 1.5 per 40 min).

I'd have loved to see what Satterfield would've been like if he had stayed at UC all 4 years, but Caupain has been, in my opinion, a better point guard, and overall basketball player at UC than Satterfield. While Satt had the assists on Caupain, Troy overall took care of the ball better. You'll see that in the AST:TO ratio above.

Why did you do fouls per 40 minutes lol?

 

[#BearcatNation]

Why did you do fouls per 40 minutes lol?

Because getting into foul trouble isn't good? How is that your takeaway?

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Because getting into foul trouble isn't good? How is that your takeaway?

Haha it just struck me as odd that fouls per 40 minutes came up when comparing point guards. Have either ever even fouled out before?

You don't have to get defensive. You can laugh and acknowledge that including that stat is at best a stretch .

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I liked Satterfield a lot, but you seem to think Satterfield was a far better point guard than Caupain. Have to disagree. Stats back it up, too.

Caupain: 40% FG, 35% 3pt, 79% FT, 2.1 AST:TO ratio, 2.1 fouls per 40 min
Satterfield: 40% FG, 32% 3pt, 78% FT, 1.6 AST:TO ratio, 3.1 fouls per 40 min

Really the only thing Satterfield had on Caupain was steals (1.8 per 40 min to 1.5 per 40 min).

I'd have loved to see what Satterfield would've been like if he had stayed at UC all 4 years, but Caupain has been, in my opinion, a better point guard, and overall basketball player at UC than Satterfield. While Satt had the assists on Caupain, Troy overall took care of the ball better. You'll see that in the AST:TO ratio above.

Nice comparison.

 

[#BearcatNation]

Haha it just struck me as odd that fouls per 40 minutes came up when comparing point guards. Have either ever even fouled out before?

You don't have to get defensive. You can laugh and acknowledge that including that stat is at best a stretch .

It's certainly not a key stat, but I still think it matters. Guys that foul less give coaches the freedom to use them whenever they want, whereas guys that foul more have to randomly ride the pine for periods of time that may affect the coach's game plan. I worry we'll see that with Kyle Washington. Supposedly he fouls a bit...

 

[Doogle]

It's not necessarily an apples to apples comparison. Just on first 2 seasons alone, Satt played a boatload more minutes, had the ball in his hand more so there was more volume in every stat category. More assists, more turnovers, more shots, more makes, more rebounds, more steals, etc. Satt took more shots per game in his freshman season that Troy did as a sophomore. Assist to turnover can't be looked at in a bubble. Using that as exclusive criteria, Troy is a better PG than Van Exel was...and while that could be true, I'm not sure I'd go there. More efficient that both Nick and Satterfield? Yes. More dynamic? No. Better overall? Hard to say.

All these players had different responsibilities and were used differently and in different eras. Troy has a been a very, very good player and this year could and probably should vault him into a very high peer group amongst Bearcat greats. I'd prefer to look at him that way than to compare him to Kenny or any other players. Proud of him and looking forward to his senior year.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

It's certainly not a key stat, but I still think it matters. Guys that foul less give coaches the freedom to use them whenever they want, whereas guys that foul more have to randomly ride the pine for periods of time that may affect the coach's game plan. I worry we'll see that with Kyle Washington. Supposedly he fouls a bit...

Yeah I see it as a concern for Washington. PGs? Not so much.

 

[justinhub2003]

Yeah I see it as a concern for Washington. PGs? Not so much.

It can be a factor. Every time I watched Kris Dunn last year, it seemed his play was limited by constant foul trouble.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

It can be a factor. Every time I watched Kris Dunn last year, it seemed his play was limited by constant foul trouble.

Oh gimme a break. It means nothing when comparing the career of two guards who weren't impacted by it.

 

[waterhead]

Yeah I see it as a concern for Washington. PGs? Not so much.

We had this conversation about Troy and Cobb a year and a half ago. Foul trouble has not been an issue. I think one time it was a small problem in the last two seasons. It's a non issue which is why Troy and Cobb started playing together instead of staggered.

 

[waterhead]

I liked Satterfield a lot, but you seem to think Satterfield was a far better point guard than Caupain. Have to disagree. Stats back it up, too.

Caupain: 40% FG, 35% 3pt, 79% FT, 2.1 AST:TO ratio, 2.1 fouls per 40 min
Satterfield: 40% FG, 32% 3pt, 78% FT, 1.6 AST:TO ratio, 3.1 fouls per 40 min

Really the only thing Satterfield had on Caupain was steals (1.8 per 40 min to 1.5 per 40 min).

I'd have loved to see what Satterfield would've been like if he had stayed at UC all 4 years, but Caupain has been, in my opinion, a better point guard, and overall basketball player at UC than Satterfield. While Satt had the assists on Caupain, Troy overall took care of the ball better. You'll see that in the AST:TO ratio above.

Some fans find it hard to admit reality. They see a non flashy point guard and figure he can't be very effective and for some reason rely on their eyes and ignore the stats.

But if you watch Troy and listen to coach you will understand he does things that flashy PGs do not. He gets into position where a switch has to occur and he's great at dropping a pass over his defender on the pick n roll. Most guards have to pass under or around.

He's a very good PG...not flashy but effective. If the team doesn't have better pace that's squarely on the coach.

 

[justinhub2003]

Oh gimme a break. It means nothing when comparing the career of two guards who weren't impacted by it.

Im not saying its a factor in this instance but It can be a factor for other PG's who can't stay on court is all.

Would I have brought up that stat? no. Just saying its not a completely invalid stat.

 

[justinhub2003]

Some fans find it hard to admit reality. They see a non flashy point guard and figure he can't be very effective and for some reason rely on their eyes and ignore the stats.

But if you watch Troy and listen to coach you will understand he does things that flashy PGs do not. He gets into position where a switch has to occur and he's great at dropping a pass over his defender on the pick n roll. Most guards have to pass under or around.

He's a very good PG...not flashy but effective. If the team doesn't have better pace that's squarely on the coach.

Also, Troy got better and better as the season went on. With January being the only outlier.

November: PPG 10.5 APG: 3.85
December: PPG: 12.14 APG: 5.42
Jan: PPG: 10.8 APG: 4.0
Feb: PPG 15.1 APG: 6.1
March: PPG: 19 APG: 5

The last 2 months of the year he had great numbers and would love to see him doing that all year this year

 

[Bearcat_NTS]

I would take Satterfield every of the day of the week over Caupain. Much more talented player.

 

[L-T]

I would take Satterfield every of the day of the week over Caupain. Much more talented player.

Yeah, there's really no comparison. Can't believe anyone would even argue the point. He was a Macdonald's All-American. He started from day one in his college career on the #1 ranked team in the nation. After 2 seasons, he had 300 more points and almost 200 more assists than Caupain. He played in the NBA after his 2nd year. I doubt seriously if we ever see Caupain in the NBA. Caupain has been the floor general of one of the worst offenses ever in college basketball and his inability to make players around him better has been a big reason why our offenses have been ugly. His teams have been largely disappointing. He's a nice player, but is out of position as a point guard.

 

[#BearcatNation]

Yeah, there's really no comparison. Can't believe anyone would even argue the point. He was a Macdonald's All-American. He started from day one in his college career on the #1 ranked team in the nation. After 2 seasons, he had 300 more points and almost 200 more assists than Caupain. He played in the NBA after his 2nd year. I doubt seriously if we ever see Caupain in the NBA. Caupain has been the floor general of one of the worst offenses ever in college basketball and his inability to make players around him better has been a big reason why our offenses have been ugly. His teams have been largely disappointing. He's a nice player, but is out of position as a point guard.

I get that they had very different styles of play, and Troy is probably better off being a shooting guard. But I really don't get how you think they're worlds apart. Who cares that Satt was a McD's All-American in high school and played in the NBA? Neither are relevant -- we're talking at UC here. Would you use those points in a Lance Stephenson vs Steve Logan debate?

You also said yourself that Satt came in and played with the #1 team in the country. You don't think that helped him at all? Caupain has played with far less talent around him.

I really can see people going either way on this one, but it makes no sense to act as if Satt was far superior.

 

[waterhead]

Yeah, there's really no comparison. Can't believe anyone would even argue the point. He was a Macdonald's All-American. He started from day one in his college career on the #1 ranked team in the nation. After 2 seasons, he had 300 more points and almost 200 more assists than Caupain. He played in the NBA after his 2nd year. I doubt seriously if we ever see Caupain in the NBA. Caupain has been the floor general of one of the worst offenses ever in college basketball and his inability to make players around him better has been a big reason why our offenses have been ugly. His teams have been largely disappointing. He's a nice player, but is out of position as a point guard.

Satterfield was a better PG. However, comparing the two situations is nonsensical. Obviously different coaches is one. However, Satterfield actually had players that wanted the ball distributed to them so they could do something with it. Lately we have had players who would rather give it back or maybe turn it over.

And you, for some reason, like to blame this on Troy not "making them better"...lol! It's like force feeding a baby some baby food they don't like...it just gets regurgitated. If they don't know what to do with the ball...why give it to them? At the end of last year I saw a change in Evans and Clark that piqued my interest a little. I think Washington will add to that. I think these guys will be a little more willing to "take the ball and run with it".

Then maybe Troy will look more like a true PG. He's going to have a great season!

 

[UCBearcats]

Yeah, there's really no comparison. Can't believe anyone would even argue the point. He was a Macdonald's All-American. He started from day one in his college career on the #1 ranked team in the nation. After 2 seasons, he had 300 more points and almost 200 more assists than Caupain. He played in the NBA after his 2nd year. I doubt seriously if we ever see Caupain in the NBA. Caupain has been the floor general of one of the worst offenses ever in college basketball and his inability to make players around him better has been a big reason why our offenses have been ugly. His teams have been largely disappointing. He's a nice player, but is out of position as a point guard.

Agree 100% on the Satterfield vs Troy issue. It's complete lunacy for anyone to even try to argue with you on this but it's to be expected on this message board. Kind of like people predicting a Final 4 with a group of players that they haven't even seen play yet and a very mediocre coach leading them.

I have to disagree with you though on Troy being a big reason our offense is ugly. Our offense was awful before Troy got here and it will be awful once he's gone. If you want to pin the blame for our offense you really only need to blame Mick. Cronin is an absolutely MISERABLE offensive coach, he doesn't believe in offense and he has no clue how to coach it.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I get that they had very different styles of play, and Troy is probably better off being a shooting guard. But I really don't get how you think they're worlds apart. Who cares that Satt was a McD's All-American in high schooland played in the NBA? Neither are relevant -- we're talking at UC here. Would you use those points in a Lance Stephenson vs Steve Logan debate?

You also said yourself that Satt came in and played with the #1 team in the country. You don't think that helped him at all? Caupain has played with far less talent around him.

I really can see people going either way on this one, but it makes no sense to act as if Satt was far superior.

The point is that he was good enough to start for the #1 team in the country as a FR. And the NBA thing IS relevant bc he wouldn't have gotten there had he not performed well at UC. Twisting those things to either be meaningless or even a built-in advantage for Satterfield is bizarre to me.

I really don't have an opinion on who is better though. I like them both. And they're both Bearcats. So I don't get why one of them has to be trashed in favor of the other, dependibg on which "side" you (not you specifically #BearcatNation) fall on. Oh well. The Huggins/Cronin Civil War will never end. I might as well accept that.

 

[GarradJ21]

What a wasteful conversation. The season is about a week and a half away and we are debating if we would rather have Satterfield or Caupain? Focus should be on Bellamine or the scrimmage we just had.