TheLivingLegend
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You cant develop offense... Scorers are scorers. Shooters are shooters.
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Tulane Game Thread
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cincyguy13
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Well Brannen saw something as well, there's a reason Vogt sat for a fairly long period of the second half (and Diarra played over Sorolla). I'd say Vogt came out relatively even. His defense/rebounding was bad, but 21 points makes up for it.
I just find it odd that you question Brannen except when he takes out Vogt. Me and you seem to see totally different things when watching these games. There was also a reason he isn't playing Diarra but you don't trust him on that.
cincyguy13
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You cant develop offense... Scorers are scorers. Shooters are shooters.
It's almost impossible.
Goldpanner
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It took Cronin his 5th year to make ncaa tournament after the changeover. Why is everyone expecting miracles. Brannen had 2 months to fill out a team. It’s going to take a few years. I don’t like that, but it is reality.
Last years team is not here now. If all the members were here the conversation would be different. But most are gone and Jarron is not playing to last years levels.
Everyone said brannen couldn’t recruit. On paper it looks as if he can. People said voght would just take up space. He’s doing much better than the consensus 2 months ago.
Unfortunately it is going to take 2 or 3 years to see if brannen can coach at this level
I am in for the long haul as I have been for the last 30 years.
I hate when they lose, but I am optimistic about the future. I have to be. I am a fan through thick and thin. Not just when they are winning.
Give brannen a legit chance to show what he can do. He can go from zero to hero real quick, unfortunately that’s the world we live in.
Last years team is not here now. If all the members were here the conversation would be different. But most are gone and Jarron is not playing to last years levels.
Everyone said brannen couldn’t recruit. On paper it looks as if he can. People said voght would just take up space. He’s doing much better than the consensus 2 months ago.
Unfortunately it is going to take 2 or 3 years to see if brannen can coach at this level
I am in for the long haul as I have been for the last 30 years.
I hate when they lose, but I am optimistic about the future. I have to be. I am a fan through thick and thin. Not just when they are winning.
Give brannen a legit chance to show what he can do. He can go from zero to hero real quick, unfortunately that’s the world we live in.
Justin Jackson became pretty good on offense as a senior, averaged 11 points. Justin Jenifer and Gary Clark are other recent guys who developed a good offensive game. Brooks and Tre Scott were pretty good on offense last year (though Scott seems to be regressing this year).
Or just look at the NBA (or even top teams like Duke and UK). Great athletes are much more valued than great scorers who aren't athletes.
Besides I thought the consensus was that Mick couldn't teach offense. If Brannen is much better at teaching offense, then why does he need to recruit guys who aren't athletic enough to play defense?
I don't see how you can expect a guy like Vogt to get better at defense. He's not going to make much of an improvement to his foot speed and movement (or jumping ability). There's only so much a poor athlete can do to get better on the defensive end. The best Brannen can do is try scheme to hide his defensive weakness (keep him off the perimeter).
Or just look at the NBA (or even top teams like Duke and UK). Great athletes are much more valued than great scorers who aren't athletes.
Besides I thought the consensus was that Mick couldn't teach offense. If Brannen is much better at teaching offense, then why does he need to recruit guys who aren't athletic enough to play defense?
I don't see how you can expect a guy like Vogt to get better at defense. He's not going to make much of an improvement to his foot speed and movement (or jumping ability). There's only so much a poor athlete can do to get better on the defensive end. The best Brannen can do is try scheme to hide his defensive weakness (keep him off the perimeter).
TheLivingLegend
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The above post is almost entirely wrong.
cincyguy13
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Justin Jackson became pretty good on offense as a senior, averaged 11 points. Justin Jenifer and Gary Clark are other recent guys who developed a good offensive game. Brooks and Tre Scott were pretty good on offense last year (though Scott seems to be regressing this year).
Or just look at the NBA (or even top teams like Duke and UK). Great athletes are much more valued than great scorers who aren't athletes.
Besides I thought the consensus was that Mick couldn't teach offense. If Brannen is much better at teaching offense, then why does he need to recruit guys who aren't athletic enough to play defense?
I don't see how you can expect a guy like Vogt to get better at defense. He's not going to make much of an improvement to his foot speed and movement (or jumping ability). There's only so much a poor athlete can do to get better on the defensive end. The best Brannen can do is try scheme to hide his defensive weakness (keep him off the perimeter).
1. Justin Jackson could dunk. Could he dribble or shoot, at all? no.
2. Duke and UK are getting the best of the best. They either have guys that can do everything, or guys that are elite at something. Hard to compare them to anyone.
3. How many NBA guys are there that can't do anything offensively? They value athletes, but athletes that have skills. The Rodmans are pretty much out of the game.
4. You can't expect Vogt to improve his foot speed or movement. That's why I don't expect that. I'm sure Brannen doesn't either. That's why I don't complain about his movement. He is what he is. In the future, I'm sure Brannen will want a more mobile big man. But I'm sure he doesn't want an Ellie out there either.
5. An athlete with no skills is almost impossible to learn those skills in a couple years. Gary Clark had skills. Watch his high school tapes. He wasn't a Justin Jackson type. It is easier to teach a non athlete where to be, then trying to teach a guy that can't do anything how to do everything.
Justin Jackson became pretty good on offense as a senior, averaged 11 points. Justin Jenifer and Gary Clark are other recent guys who developed a good offensive game. Brooks and Tre Scott were pretty good on offense last year (though Scott seems to be regressing this year).
Or just look at the NBA (or even top teams like Duke and UK). Great athletes are much more valued than great scorers who aren't athletes.
Besides I thought the consensus was that Mick couldn't teach offense. If Brannen is much better at teaching offense, then why does he need to recruit guys who aren't athletic enough to play defense?
I don't see how you can expect a guy like Vogt to get better at defense. He's not going to make much of an improvement to his foot speed and movement (or jumping ability). There's only so much a poor athlete can do to get better on the defensive end. The best Brannen can do is try scheme to hide his defensive weakness (keep him off the perimeter).
You don’t teach a player offensive ball skills or shooting overnight. You can run a better system but you have to recruit guys with skills already in hand. Come on man! Brannen has been on the job a half year. Cronin had JJ 4 years to get anything offensive out of him.
Brannen has other issues. His adjustments have been bad and our turnovers are inexcusable
The above post is almost entirely wrong.
Agreed
1. Justin Jackson had a reasonably good back to the basket game in his senior year. Vogt can't dribble or shoot either, but he's still good on offense.
2. But they tend to prioritize athletes.
3. There are plenty of elite athletes who are below average scorers in the NBA. You won't see many (if any) below average athletes who are elite scorers. There is a certain level of athleticism that is required to play in the NBA.
4. I don't either. But I do expect Brannen to stop letting teams beat Vogt. Get Vogt on the perimeter was clearly a major part of Tulane's game plan. Even the commentators talked about how Hunter said he was going to force us to go small to defend them. Brannen needs to make adjustments. We keep seeing the same thing against teams with a 5 who can shoot and it's going to keep happening.
5. It's very rare for a guy to come into college with no skills, just like it's very rare to have a true "non-athlete" (there aren't many guys under 6' who play high-level D1 basketball). Even Diarra could make threes when he came here. You can teach a non-athlete where to be, but he will never be able to do the things an athlete can do (rebound, block shots, give help defense, recover from mistakes, force steals) at the same level. It's a matter of degrees. And there's a reason why it's the mid-majors who have the non-athlete shooters and the high-majors have the athletes.
2. But they tend to prioritize athletes.
3. There are plenty of elite athletes who are below average scorers in the NBA. You won't see many (if any) below average athletes who are elite scorers. There is a certain level of athleticism that is required to play in the NBA.
4. I don't either. But I do expect Brannen to stop letting teams beat Vogt. Get Vogt on the perimeter was clearly a major part of Tulane's game plan. Even the commentators talked about how Hunter said he was going to force us to go small to defend them. Brannen needs to make adjustments. We keep seeing the same thing against teams with a 5 who can shoot and it's going to keep happening.
5. It's very rare for a guy to come into college with no skills, just like it's very rare to have a true "non-athlete" (there aren't many guys under 6' who play high-level D1 basketball). Even Diarra could make threes when he came here. You can teach a non-athlete where to be, but he will never be able to do the things an athlete can do (rebound, block shots, give help defense, recover from mistakes, force steals) at the same level. It's a matter of degrees. And there's a reason why it's the mid-majors who have the non-athlete shooters and the high-majors have the athletes.
cincyguy13
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1. Justin Jackson had a reasonably good back to the basket game in his senior year. Vogt can't dribble or shoot either, but he's still good on offense.
2. But they tend to prioritize athletes.
3. There are plenty of elite athletes who are below average scorers in the NBA. You won't see many (if any) below average athletes who are elite scorers. There is a certain level of athleticism that is required to play in the NBA.
4. I don't either. But I do expect Brannen to stop letting teams beat Vogt. Get Vogt on the perimeter was clearly a major part of Tulane's game plan. Even the commentators talked about how Hunter said he was going to force us to go small to defend them. Brannen needs to make adjustments. We keep seeing the same thing against teams with a 5 who can shoot and it's going to keep happening.
5. It's very rare for a guy to come into college with no skills, just like it's very rare to have a true "non-athlete" (there aren't many guys under 6' who play high-level D1 basketball). Even Diarra could make threes when he came here. You can teach a non-athlete where to be, but he will never be able to do the things an athlete can do (rebound, block shots, give help defense, recover from mistakes, force steals) at the same level. It's a matter of degrees. And there's a reason why it's the mid-majors who have the non-athlete shooters and the high-majors have the athletes.
1. No, Justin Jackson didn't have a good offensive game.Back to the basket or anything. That is wrong. Love him, but he didn't. He struggled to make a layup or anything that wasn't a dunk. Vogt can score with both hands. layups, hooks, dunks. JJ could dunk.
2. Yes the NBA loves athletes. They are picking the best of the best. These aren't athletes that are just athletes. like Cronin loved to get.
The rest, it's just harder to teach a raw athlete to be a scorer. We have 15 years of data to show. If you think other wise, I don't know what to tell you. If you have played basketball at any point in your life this is pretty known.
Like I've said, you seem to be watching a completely different game than everyone else. Not sure how to even argue with some of it. You just want a team of athletes and hope to teach them how to play basketball. Good luck with that strategy.
justinhub2003
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I think whole thing is a ruse to turn UC into a football school.
If creating Apathy where passion once existed was the goal of the season, it’s a mission accomplished.
If creating Apathy where passion once existed was the goal of the season, it’s a mission accomplished.
cincyguy13
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If you truly believe athletes are more valuable than guys that have basketball skills, go to any YMCA league. There is always a team of 40-50 year olds that wipes the floor with a team of 20 something athletes. It's not only hard to teach the actual skills, shooting, dribbling, etc. It's impossible to teach them the intangible things on offense. Positioning, how to draw fouls, changing speeds, sealing players in the post, how to use a pick and roll effectively, etc.. That's why Diarra is hard to play. Great athlete, but he doesn't understand the simple things. These are things you have to learn over years. Now if you can have both, like the NBA guys, that is ideal.1. Justin Jackson had a reasonably good back to the basket game in his senior year. Vogt can't dribble or shoot either, but he's still good on offense.
2. But they tend to prioritize athletes.
3. There are plenty of elite athletes who are below average scorers in the NBA. You won't see many (if any) below average athletes who are elite scorers. There is a certain level of athleticism that is required to play in the NBA.
4. I don't either. But I do expect Brannen to stop letting teams beat Vogt. Get Vogt on the perimeter was clearly a major part of Tulane's game plan. Even the commentators talked about how Hunter said he was going to force us to go small to defend them. Brannen needs to make adjustments. We keep seeing the same thing against teams with a 5 who can shoot and it's going to keep happening.
5. It's very rare for a guy to come into college with no skills, just like it's very rare to have a true "non-athlete" (there aren't many guys under 6' who play high-level D1 basketball). Even Diarra could make threes when he came here. You can teach a non-athlete where to be, but he will never be able to do the things an athlete can do (rebound, block shots, give help defense, recover from mistakes, force steals) at the same level. It's a matter of degrees. And there's a reason why it's the mid-majors who have the non-athlete shooters and the high-majors have the athletes.
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Yup, the defense and lack of adjustments have been a major disappointment.
It's pretty obvious how to beat our defense. 1. Have a 5 who can shoot it from three. 2. Use that guy to put Vogt in pick and rolls. 3. Score more often than not.
Or pull Vogt to the perimeter and then take your man 1-v-1. That prevents Vogt from defending the rim and rebounding.
Lmao it’s always all Vogts fault
justinhub2003
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Lmao it’s always all Vogts fault
I have zero issues with Vogt playing 40 min a game if he could. He is really good.
That said, what he’s explaining isn’t a Vogt issue it’s a coaching issue.
Regardless Brannen will never be a good defensive coach. So our way out of this mess Is to just score more
Michigancat
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We played like a bunch of pussies
Mika, welcome to conference play. Work on your footwork, you're slow on defending.
Trevon, start shooting. Make the other team defend you.
Keith, what the hell was that second half? You looked scared to shoot.
Jarron, quit reaching for the ball on defense and move your feet. You're picking up too many reach in fouls. You need to shoot more in the first half of games. Comgratulations that you look like the only bearcat who wants to drive and create shots in the last five minutes of games.
Why did you guys quit feeding Vogt in the last ten minutes of the game?
As a team your defense sucks. How hard is it to figure out 2 players on Tulane are consistently beating you and need to be guarded?
You guys lost to Tulane for god's sake. Quit assuming you're going to win and play with some desire. If I were the coach, I'd start sitting players who have no desire to win and are fine with blowing 10 point leads. I'd rather see younger players play who at least want to learn and are grateful for playing time than starters who coast on their laurels and are fine with losing to mediocre teams.
Boy the officials in this game sucked. The American has some pretty bad officials. I used to officiate games so I can tell you honestly when officials are bad, and boy was this crew bad. That being said, they didn't cause UC to lose, the players just quit playing.
And no, it's not the coach's fault. I could tell coach was plenty pissed at the players during some of the time outs.
I'm glad I moved from Cincinnati so I don't have to drive in for the games and be disappointed watching this team not put in decent effort when the game gets tough.
If anybody thinks it's the coaching, think back to the NCAA and how these guys played against Iowa in the tournament. It's a lot of the same starters who folded in that game as well down the stretch when Cronin was the coach.
Mika, welcome to conference play. Work on your footwork, you're slow on defending.
Trevon, start shooting. Make the other team defend you.
Keith, what the hell was that second half? You looked scared to shoot.
Jarron, quit reaching for the ball on defense and move your feet. You're picking up too many reach in fouls. You need to shoot more in the first half of games. Comgratulations that you look like the only bearcat who wants to drive and create shots in the last five minutes of games.
Why did you guys quit feeding Vogt in the last ten minutes of the game?
As a team your defense sucks. How hard is it to figure out 2 players on Tulane are consistently beating you and need to be guarded?
You guys lost to Tulane for god's sake. Quit assuming you're going to win and play with some desire. If I were the coach, I'd start sitting players who have no desire to win and are fine with blowing 10 point leads. I'd rather see younger players play who at least want to learn and are grateful for playing time than starters who coast on their laurels and are fine with losing to mediocre teams.
Boy the officials in this game sucked. The American has some pretty bad officials. I used to officiate games so I can tell you honestly when officials are bad, and boy was this crew bad. That being said, they didn't cause UC to lose, the players just quit playing.
And no, it's not the coach's fault. I could tell coach was plenty pissed at the players during some of the time outs.
I'm glad I moved from Cincinnati so I don't have to drive in for the games and be disappointed watching this team not put in decent effort when the game gets tough.
If anybody thinks it's the coaching, think back to the NCAA and how these guys played against Iowa in the tournament. It's a lot of the same starters who folded in that game as well down the stretch when Cronin was the coach.
TheLongHaul
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I think whole thing is a ruse to turn UC into a football school.
If creating Apathy where passion once existed was the goal of the season, it’s a mission accomplished.
you have a funny way of showing apathy.
justinhub2003
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you have a funny way of showing apathy.
Lol I’m getting closer to apathy
We’re a mid major program at this point in the season
Full blown apathy is when I don’t renew my season tickets next season. Which I’ll sell to you by the way so you can skip the waiting list.
For now I’m just looking for a back up team to root for since UC has crapped the bed 2 games into league play.
UC Basketball has ruined my favorite time of the year so I’m looking for a new hobby.
cincyguy13
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Its a bad year man. It happens. Look at North Carolina. It sucks, I get it’. The worst part is the rest of the season is pointless but maybe it would be a good idea for some of us to not care as much and find something else to do for a little while. Myself included.Lol I’m getting closer to apathy
We’re a mid major program at this point in the season
Full blown apathy is when I don’t renew my season tickets next season. Which I’ll sell to you by the way so you can skip the waiting list.
For now I’m just looking for a back up team to root for since UC has crapped the bed 2 games into league play.
UC Basketball has ruined my favorite time of the year so I’m looking for a new hobby.
Lol I’m getting closer to apathy
We’re a mid major program at this point in the season
Full blown apathy is when I don’t renew my season tickets next season. Which I’ll sell to you by the way so you can skip the waiting list.
For now I’m just looking for a back up team to root for since UC has crapped the bed 2 games into league play.
UC Basketball has ruined my favorite time of the year so I’m looking for a new hobby.
Not sure where you're getting apathy from? I sense frustration with the fans being in a new territory of likely missing the tourney. I also see half the fan base is logical/realistic and recognize that the roster needs a ton of work and willing to give JB time - and the other half is pissed at JB for not getting squares to fit round holes.
you probably post 20-30 times a day between here and BCJ and who knows where else - that's not apathy