UCF

[jacobkdoyle]

I didn't say coach made anything up. I was responding to a post from a fan on this board. Which I was then asked to present data for (which I did).

Coach says SK got worn down that year. But that's just superstition. So at best he's wasting time every year looking out for players who don't need it. We should have full practices for our main minutes guts all year long. Doesn't matter. They won't get tired.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

This is incredibly misleading. Evans was 8-10 and 5-7 in games with 26 and 29 minutes. Then in his 3rd game in 3 days, he went 3-11 in 34 minutes. I wonder why. Couldn't be fatigue.

So the 80% shooting game was on 5 days rest and only 27 mpg the 2 games before that.

 

[waterhead]

Smh. Our coach sure spends a lot of time each year worrying about nothing.

So let me just ask this to make sure I'm not misrepresenting what you're saying: The only reason to not play Evans 40 minutes every single game is bc it increases his chance of a freak (non physical wellness related) injury. Is that what you think? The idea of him getting tired from that is superstition?

I remember Cronin saying Troy was burnt out towards the end of the season. But Troy's numbers would not tell the same story. Do I disagree with Cronin on this one item? Yes...I think I do. When adrenaline plays a factor...your best players will find the energy to get it done.

Show me some other data which disagrees and I will be happy to reconsider.

Do I think it is better to be well rested? Sure. Do I think it's a big deal? No not at all.

 

[waterhead]

Coach says SK got worn down that year. But that's just superstition. So at best he's wasting time every year looking out for players who don't need it. We should have full practices for our main minutes guts all year long. Doesn't matter. They won't get tired.

How can coach say he got worn down yet see his productivity increase end of year? It doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

So the 80% shooting game was on 5 days rest and only 27 mpg the 2 games before that.

This is why the small sample examples you're using don't do it for me. I mean, you won't even account for Caupain's 4 OT numbers. Which inflated those numbers AND came on 4/5 days rest.

 

[Cartel]

I think it's all of it. And our coach spends the most time with these guys and talks about it every year. He goes out of his way to mention throttling down in practice time as the year goes on.

Mental I have to believe is the main issue. If it takes my old ass a day to recover from a hard workout, I can not believe it takes these guys longer. They talk about how the 162 takes a toll on guys in mlb. Most of them are just standing around in the grass. It is all what goes on upstairs.

I can believe that less minutes equals less injury and that may also factor into this. If you can cut down on the minor nagging injuries you obviously will play better.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I remember Cronin saying Troy was burnt out towards the end of the season. But Troy's numbers would not tell the same story. Do I disagree with Cronin on this one item? Yes...I think I do. When adrenaline plays a factor...your best players will find the energy to get it done.

Show me some other data which disagrees and I will be happy to reconsider.

Do I think it is better to be well rested? Sure. Do I think it's a big deal? No not at all.

Why is it better to be well rested if fatigue is superstition?

 

[jacobkdoyle]

How can coach say he got worn down yet see his productivity increase end of year? It doesn't make a lick of sense.

HE RESTED HIM MORE OFF THE COURT BY NOT PRACTICING HIM AS HARD. WHAT DONT YOU GET ABOUT THAT?

 

[jacobkdoyle]

And again, your last 5 games should be of reg season maybe. Guys almost have a full week off before conf and NCAA tournament.

You haven't discovered that fatigue isn't a real thing. Sorry.

 

[waterhead]

This is incredibly misleading. Evans was 8-10 and 5-7 in games with 26 and 29 minutes. Then in his 3rd game in 3 days, he went 3-11 in 34 minutes. I wonder why. Couldn't be fatigue.

If you want to knit pick this to death go ahead. I gave my evidence as you requested.

 

[waterhead]

This is why the small sample examples you're using don't do it for me. I mean, you won't even account for Caupain's 4 OT numbers. Which inflated those numbers AND came on 4/5 days rest.

You asked me for more information...which I gave you. Don't kill the messenger

 

[jacobkdoyle]

If you want to knit pick this to death go ahead. I gave my evidence as you requested.

Yeah and it's hardly a scientific study. Especially bc for the 70th time, our coach tailors his approach towards the idea that they do get tired and rests them outside of the game.

 

[waterhead]

Why is it better to be well rested if fatigue is superstition?

I don't think it's a big deal as I said.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I don't think it's a big deal as I said.

Why did you say you'd prefer it though?

You never answered:
Would you play Evans for 40 minutes every game from here on out? Yes or no? If no, why?

 

[jacobkdoyle]

This is so much more than...hey look what 3 guys did in 5 games one year. Therefore, fatigue is superstition.

You absolutely refuse to acknowledge the part where our coach gets the guys ready and knows how to keep them ready. If he tones down practice, saves minutes in game when he can, and we get almost a week before the 2 postseason events, it's not crazy that our best players would perform.

As pointed out though, your Evans example is misleading, and the Caupain one is inflated by an outlier. There goes half your research.

 

[sedziobs]

The data being presented here is not anywhere close to the level needed to invalidate the claim that fatigue affects performance. It's anecdotal. But that's not Waterhead's fault. Data was demanded of him, and he's doing his best with available resources.

Mick Cronin is most likely not relying on data. He's probably relying on intuition. Waterhead called it superstition, which I would say is an exaggeration. But I get his point, which is there isn't any scientific evidence to support the idea that sitting a player for an extra 5 minutes in one game will improve his performance in subsequent games. There was an NBA study done last year on sitting out full games, which came to the conclusion:

Rest during the NBA regular season does not improve playoff performance or affect the injury risk during the playoffs in the same season.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5637977/

But even that study isn't well controlled and has a relatively small sample size. This is an issue that is unlikely to be resolved using data. So I would recommend not digging into your position, rather allowing that someone else's opinion is valid, even if it's not backed by evidence.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

You asked me for more information...which I gave you. Don't kill the messenger

Surely you can see how it's incomplete. Some players may not be impacted as much as others. There are degrees. But I don't think anyone would call it smart to put incredibly heavy minutes on guys every night and expect them to be sharp exactly when you need them to be.

 

[sedziobs]

This is so much more than...hey look what 3 guys did in 5 games one year. Therefore, fatigue is superstition.

You absolutely refuse to acknowledge the part where our coach gets the guys ready and knows how to keep them ready. If he tones down practice, saves minutes in game when he can, and we get almost a week before the 2 postseason events, it's not crazy that our best players would perform.

As pointed out though, your Evans example is misleading, and the Caupain one is inflated by an outlier. There goes half your research.

There's a principle of rational debate called "steel man", in which it is more prudent to attack the strongest part of your opponent's argument. This is opposed to "straw man" where you attack the weakest part, or fabricate a weak argument to attack. Straw men are easy to defeat, but ineffective in moving the debate forward. You seem to be building a straw man out of Waterhead's comments.

 

[Cartel]

It is interesting. You see people obsess about pitch counts all the time. This is the first time I have heard anyone obsess about a mpg count.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

The data being presented here is not anywhere close to the level needed to invalidate the claim that fatigue affects performance. It's anecdotal. But that's not Waterhead's fault. Data was demanded of him, and he's doing his best with available resources.

Mick Cronin is most likely not relying on data. He's probably relying on intuition. Waterhead called it superstition, which I would say is an exaggeration. But I get his point, which is there isn't any scientific evidence to support the idea that sitting a player for an extra 5 minutes in one game will improve his performance in subsequent games. There was an NBA study done last year on sitting out full games, which came to the conclusion:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5637977/

But even that study isn't well controlled and has a relatively small sample size. This is an issue that is unlikely to be resolved using data. So I would recommend not digging into your position, rather allowing that someone else's opinion is valid, even if it's not backed by evidence.

I may be old-fashioned on this but if our coaches spend hours a day watching these guys practice and play, I'm going to trust that they can tell when they aren't operating at full capacity. I'm sure our coaches even feel it and experience themselves. It's a long season and if pressed, I'd easily go with resting a guy as much as you can over keeping things at 100%. If fatigue doesn't exist, you don't see that as a difference. But as was mentioned, the mental side of things matters. If your brain is telling you it wouldn't be beneficial to go hard in practice for 2 hours a day in between games when 3 months into a season, I'd say it might be worth listening. It's human nature. These guys aren't robots. Just as an example, a couple weeks ago the day after the game the starters did yoga, and the bench guys did a full practice. There's a reason for that and I doubt the people there on the ground, in person would say they're simply subscribing to junk science. And even if they are, how does the mental aspect of believing you're refilling the tank get factored in? It's not really something that we can tangibly point to in this discussion.