Wichita State

[jacobkdoyle]

like i'll hear your arguments on Cane. And to Mick's credit, he played 28 minutes against WSU. I dunno what you would do except play him the entire game.

But I'm not hearing anything about Kyle getting more minutes in that WSU game. He was completely ineffective. And was bullied around. And he could barely even establish position because they rattled him so much.

We were getting punked on boards, he would be an idiot to leave Kyle in there to just get beasted on. Xavier and WSU are teams where Kyle is a minus guy. All our bigs sucked and Mick couldn't find an answer from anyone, not kyle, not Gary, Not Eliel, Not Nysier and Not Tre scott. They all sucked against strong powerful 4's and 5's.


We've played 11 tier A&B games this, thats a big enough sample size to show that our guys aren't as good as we thought. Mick Cronin is 5'7 and has never scored an NBA basket, to blame their hangs on him is ridiculous.


Our 3 best players are "bad" at their best attributes against great and good competition.
Gary is 49% from 2 in those games,
Jacob is 32% from 3 in those games,
Jarron is 29% from 3 in those games,

Thats our guys facing better teams and better defenses and then struggling because of it. Those not the kind of stats you want to see from your best players.

Jalen Brunson is shooting 41% from 3 against tier A&B teams
Trevon Blueitt is shooting 41% from 3 against tier A&B teams
Devonte Graham is shooting 41% from 3 against tier A&B teams
Carson Edwards is shooting 39% from 3 against tier A&B teams
Grayson Allen is shooting 38% from 3 against tier A&B teams
Mikal Bridges is shooting 41% from 3 against tier A&B teams
Kyle Guy is shooting 37% from 3 against tier A&B teams

Those are the better players from some of the top teams in the country and how they perform in Tier A&B games and most have played more than the 11 we have played. They have players who's best skills don't fade when they face better teams, our players all become very average and even below average when we play good teams.

I'm not saying this just to say it, i'm saying the proof is in the stats and they don't lie.

Would Jacob Evans be a 1st or 2nd team all conference player in the ACC, Big 12, Big East and even SEC??? I have no idea, but based on the facts in front of us, I'd say no, since they'd be playing more high level games and thus more opportunities to perform very poorly.

Didn't Shaq Morris drop like 26 last night? Maybe he's just good and can score on anyone? But at least Washington has shown he can get you some of those points back. Wtf are Brooks and Nsoseme gonna do when they get scored on? Whether it be straight up, or bc they made a mistake, doesn't matter. But they aren't any better. So in order to imply that Washington should play less than those guys you'd have to say that those guys, who scored 0 points in 22 minutes, are that much of a defensive advantage that their net points allowed compared with Washington cancel out any scoring that Washington can do...and then some. That seems ridiculous.

 

[sedziobs]

I'm not saying this just to say it, i'm saying the proof is in the stats and they don't lie.

Well that's silly. Don't you know that Cronin is just stubborn, and there's absolutely no way anything will ever convince us otherwise that he's wrong and we're not.

Ahem.

 

[cincrulz11]

Well that's silly. Don't you know that Cronin is just stubborn, and there's absolutely no way anything will ever convince us otherwise that he's wrong and we're not.

Ahem.

the sorta funny thing about it though is the 2 players that don't drop off vs the good teams are broome and kwash.



but they do get benched.


gary and jake have to play better in the big games. both are laid back almost to the point of being timid.

 

[cincrulz11]

and ill even add cronin has talked in the past about having to force gary and jake to want the ball and be more aggressive.


there are enough scorers on this team, you dont need to force guys into it if they aren't comfortable in that spot.



forcing them into it would make more sense if nobody else was capable of scoring.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Well that's silly. Don't you know that Cronin is just stubborn, and there's absolutely no way anything will ever convince us otherwise that he's wrong and we're not.

Ahem.

It's quite possible that the 3 guys being referenced for us are struggling more bc they don't have enough help on the floor. I think that's the argument. Maybe they'd be more efficient if the other offensive weapons weren't on the bench for guys who pose no offensive threat.

Of course we don't know in losses bc the most we have to go on is the Florida game. In none of other our losses have Washington and Broome both played even half the game. Washington, however, was our KenPom MVP, as was mentioned by someone yesterday, in our 3 biggest wins.

Seems like there's an argument to be made that Washington going well helps the rest of the team. In fact, in the 3 best wins where he was KenPom MVP, the other guys did a little better:

Clark 50% from 2 and 42% from 3 (over 2 attempts per game)
Evans 53% from 3
Cumberland 33% from 3
And obviously since Washington got the MVP, you can throw his numbers in on top of that.

 

[sedziobs]

the sorta funny thing about it though is the 2 players that don't drop off vs the good teams are broome and kwash.

Yeah, a couple days ago I mentioned

Kyle was the Kenpom MVP in our biggest wins (@UCLA, @Temple, Houston).

Kyle's performance seems to be critical to our success. But I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers as to why Cronin allocates minutes the way he does.

 

[waterhead]

Didn't Shaq Morris drop like 26 last night? Maybe he's just good and can score on anyone? But at least Washington has shown he can get you some of those points back. Wtf are Brooks and Nsoseme gonna do when they get scored on? Whether it be straight up, or bc they made a mistake, doesn't matter. But they aren't any better. So in order to imply that Washington should play less than those guys you'd have to say that those guys, who scored 0 points in 22 minutes, are that much of a defensive advantage that their net points allowed compared with Washington cancel out any scoring that Washington can do...and then some. That seems ridiculous.

I was going to say something similar. If they all suck then you need to play the better offensive guy. I don't think we have any great defenders (right now) at the 5. Brooks is at 7 fouls per 40 minutes and Nsoseme is around 6. I think Kyle is around 3.5

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Yeah, a couple days ago I mentioned

Kyle's performance seems to be critical to our success. But I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers as to why Cronin allocates minutes the way he does.

I guess I'd just rather lose bc Washington and/or Broome didn't play well than lose bc one or both were on the bench.

 

[sedziobs]

Kyle's kenpom ORtg has been 92 or worse in all four of our losses though, including a big fat zero against X. In those games he's committed 9 turnovers with only 12 rebounds (and only 1 offensive). He's averaged 20.5 mpg in our losses.

 

[waterhead]

It's quite possible that the 3 guys being referenced for us are struggling more bc they don't have enough help on the floor. I think that's the argument. Maybe they'd be more efficient if the other offensive weapons weren't on the bench for guys who pose no offensive threat.

Of course we don't know in losses bc the most we have to go on is the Florida game. In none of other our losses have Washington and Broome both played even half the game. Washington, however, was our KenPom MVP, as was mentioned by someone yesterday, in our 3 biggest wins.

Seems like there's an argument to be made that Washington going well helps the rest of the team. In fact, in the 3 best wins where he was KenPom MVP, the other guys did a little better:

Clark 50% from 2 and 42% from 3 (over 2 attempts per game)
Evans 53% from 3
Cumberland 33% from 3
And obviously since Washington got the MVP, you can throw his numbers in on top of that.

I think Evans will be fine if we keep him on the wing. I think he can shoot 40% against most teams when he's catch and shoot. Cronin has him doing way too much and it's affecting his play IMO. Cumberland is who he is and he's not a 40% shooter period. That's not his whole game though.

Put Kyle and Cane in there and the whole team will probably perform better.

 

[waterhead]

and ill even add cronin has talked in the past about having to force gary and jake to want the ball and be more aggressive.


there are enough scorers on this team, you dont need to force guys into it if they aren't comfortable in that spot.



forcing them into it would make more sense if nobody else was capable of scoring.

Gary, Jake, and Jarron aren't going to be able to carry the load against a good defense if we have 2 other players who don't need attention.

I get that Cronin has reasons for what he does but if there are matchups where Kyle is only good for 17 minutes and Cane for 6...and other players are better in his mind...then we aren't going far in the dance.

 

[cincrulz11]

Kyle's kenpom ORtg has been 92 or worse in all four of our losses though, including a big fat zero against X. In those games he's committed 9 turnovers with only 12 rebounds (and only 1 offensive). He's averaged 20.5 mpg in our losses.

the games where he was a turnover machine he got the minutes. the other 2 games he only had 1.


its, i dont know, strange i guess you could say. you never know exactly what is going to make mick bench a guy.

 

[sedziobs]

I guess I'd just rather lose bc Washington and/or Broome didn't play well than lose bc one or both were on the bench.

That seems to be the fan consensus. It probably gives the highest upside, and is more exciting. I imagine Cronin is looking for a more consistent approach. It's easy to look back on a game and wonder if different minutes may have helped. But the flip side is more variance doesn't necessarily make us better.

And that's just offense. I think the main reason Kyle and Cane don't both play more than 20 minutes most games is because they're both prone to defensive lapses. Cronin only plays them together 13.7% of the time. A defensive coach is not going to have much patience for multiple players giving up easy looks.

And I'm not sure having them both out there together would help our offense enough to overcome that. They both create with the ball in their hands, and aren't looking for the next pass first. It's good to have at least one player like that, but in my opinion you get decreasing returns from additional similar players on the floor at the same time.

Anyway, there's lots of arguments to be made about our rotations. I think it's a little ridiculous to call Cronin stubborn because he doesn't have the same opinion as the consensus here. Truly being stubborn would mean continuing with his strategy despite a known alternative being clearly superior. We don't know that the alternative is superior. It might be worse. It's up to a coach to determine that through analysis and practice time. He might be wrong, but I don't blame him too much for his decisions with a team ranked #6 in efficiency. If Cronin is stubborn, I think all coaches are.

 

[cincrulz11]

Kyle's kenpom ORtg has been 92 or worse in all four of our losses though, including a big fat zero against X. In those games he's committed 9 turnovers with only 12 rebounds (and only 1 offensive). He's averaged 20.5 mpg in our losses.

and to go further on this.

Gary has 7 turnovers in those games

Cumberland has 8 turnovers in those games

Evans has 13 turnovers in those games



Those guys HAVE to play better. And most of those turnovers from memory are just sloppy plays, not necessarily forced turnovers.



there are many problems from our loses. It's not simply a minute distribution thing.


hopefully we were just getting the bad ones out of the way!

 

[waterhead]

That seems to be the fan consensus. It probably gives the highest upside, and is more exciting. I imagine Cronin is looking for a more consistent approach. It's easy to look back on a game and wonder if different minutes may have helped. But the flip side is more variance doesn't necessarily make us better.

And that's just offense. I think the main reason Kyle and Cane don't both play more than 20 minutes most games is because they're both prone to defensive lapses. Cronin only plays them together 13.7% of the time. A defensive coach is not going to have much patience for multiple players giving up easy looks.

And I'm not sure having them both out there together would help our offense enough to overcome that. They both create with the ball in their hands, and aren't looking for the next pass first. It's good to have at least one player like that, but in my opinion you get decreasing returns from additional similar players on the floor at the same time.

Anyway, there's lots of arguments to be made about our rotations. I think it's a little ridiculous to call Cronin stubborn because he doesn't have the same opinion as the consensus here. Truly being stubborn would mean continuing with his strategy despite a known alternative being clearly superior. We don't know that the alternative is superior. It might be worse. It's up to a coach to determine that through analysis and practice time. He might be wrong, but I don't blame him too much for his decisions with a team ranked #6 in efficiency. If Cronin is stubborn, I think all coaches are.

There are a lot of good points in here. The game I wonder most about is @Houston. Whatever was happening out there (which was brutal) was in some way BETTER to Cronin than the alternative of giving Cane a serious look. That is really scary...lol!

With Kyle we usually have a pretty good idea why he sits. With Cane we have to wonder especially after he reduced his turnovers. Many people thought that was the big issue. Obviously there is more to it.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

There are a lot of good points in here. The game I wonder most about is @Houston. Whatever was happening out there (which was brutal) was in some way BETTER to Cronin than the alternative of giving Cane a serious look. That is really scary...lol!

With Kyle we usually have a pretty good idea why he sits. With Cane we have to wonder especially after he reduced his turnovers. Many people thought that was the big issue. Obviously there is more to it.

With Houston being very good on perimeter he opted for the bigger guys with Evans running the PG. While I agree we need to pick it up offensively regardless if Broome plays more or not if Evans doesn't pick it up we are in trouble

 

[sedziobs]

With Houston being very good on perimeter he opted for the bigger guys with Evans running the PG. While I agree we need to pick it up offensively regardless if Broome plays more or not if Evans doesn't pick it up we are in trouble

6 minutes is an extreme case. I think something else was going on aside from just performance and strategy.

 

[david aka the TYZ]

6 minutes is an extreme case. I think something else was going on aside from just performance and strategy.

I truly just think with the way the game was being played with Houston being overly physical and grabbing and pushing, Cronin wanted his strongest players and wanted length. When Cane got in he made bad mistakes quick and that rubs Cronin the wrong way. Couple that with him saying Broome hadn't been practicing hard and it's not too hard to see why Cronin didn't go with him. And Cane hadn't been exactly lighting it up offensively since his injury. He gave the minutes to Moore, not Jenifer so it's not like he's playing favorites as some want to suggest.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I truly just think with the way the game was being played with Houston being overly physical and grabbing and pushing, Cronin wanted his strongest players and wanted length. When Cane got in he made bad mistakes quick and that rubs Cronin the wrong way. Couple that with him saying Broome hadn't been practicing hard and it's not too hard to see why Cronin didn't go with him. And Cane hadn't been exactly lighting it up offensively since his injury. He gave the minutes to Moore, not Jenifer so it's not like he's playing favorites as some want to suggest.

I don't get this though. We are a very physical and defensive minded team. But what gives us trouble? Jet quick guards who can beat us off the dribble. So why can't we turn the tables on the opponent when we are up against the type of D we play?

 

[cincrulz11]

He gave the minutes to Moore, not Jenifer so it's not like he's playing favorites as some want to suggest.

i'd suggest you look into those minutes played again if you think what you just said is true.