Butler

[Bulldog01]

I like how Evans wasn't scared to shoot last shot. By end of year he'll be a star. Might only play 2yrs

 

[jacobkdoyle]

isn't jenifer 3pt% better than Evans?

No clue. If it is, I'll bet anything that it wont be by year end.

 

[Bulldog01]

No clue. If it is, I'll bet anything that it wont be by year end.

I missed jenifer last night

 

[TheLongHaul]

Why do you say it was ill advised? He was wide open. My point is Cronin doesn't just tell his kids in practice they can shoot from wherever they want and so when it comes to playing in a game they tend to take the shots that Mick has OK'd from practice.

Do you think it was ill advised simply because you think he's a poor shooter and you don't want him shooting anything but layups?

So because Mick doesn't tell them to shoot from wherever, they don't take bad shots? Yet L-T is arguing that Mick yanked Deberry for a bad shot. Bad shots happen all the time for UC and in college basketball.

It was ill-advised because it was early in the shot clock, I believe he either took a dribble to his right or was leaning to his right (perhaps L-T can verify this for me), and there had been no inside penetration or passing at that point. Just about the entire section sitting by me was yelling "nooooo!" when he took it. It was not a good shot.

Just as I suspected, you completely fabricated a story to support your own statement and make mine look bad. I think that is called trolling.

Anyway, on the defensive possession just before Deberry took his shot. Dunhan ran the baseline completely free and all the way around to the high left wing and was wide open. Deberry hustled out to try to stop the wide open 3. Dunham dribbled to his left and at that point Clark was closing fast and Deberry was closing fast. Dunham took a big step back jump stop towards the corner and hit a falling away 2 with both Clark and Deberry contesting. Mick had zero reaction to that basket. He was standing with his hands behind his back and said nothing or did nothing.

The possession before that, Dunham shot a contested air ball from the right wing with Deberry not even in the play.

The possession before that Martin missed a shot from the right wing.

The possession before that, someone drove around Ellis at the left wing, got into the paint and hit a floater. Deberry was guarding his man in the opposite baseline and left his man to try to help off on Ellis' man, but he still hit the shot.

So, the bottom line is that Deberry had done nothing noticeable to anger Mick, until he took the ill advised shot, at which time he was immediately removed from the game. Nice try. Nice dancing.

Ha ha ha, yes, I'm trolling.

Thanks for going back and watching tape to prove I'm "dancing". May I suggest a hobby for you? If Mick took him out for the shot it'd be the first time. He himself has said he'd never take someone out for taking a shot. Mick's words, not mine.

And concluding that a shot wasn't a bad shot because the other team didn't end up scoring on their next possession is another stupid argument.

 

[Bulldog01]

If Mick took him out for the shot it'd be the first time. He himself has said he'd never take someone out for taking a shot. Mick's words, not mine.

This first year I've ever seen Mick let's somebody outside one of his puppets do anything wrong and not get yanked immediately. That's not up for debate

 

[L-T]

So because Mick doesn't tell them to shoot from wherever, they don't take bad shots? Yet L-T is arguing that Mick yanked Deberry for a bad shot. Bad shots happen all the time for UC and in college basketball.

It was ill-advised because it was early in the shot clock, I believe he either took a dribble to his right or was leaning to his right (perhaps L-T can verify this for me), and there had been no inside penetration or passing at that point. Just about the entire section sitting by me was yelling "nooooo!" when he took it. It was not a good shot.



Ha ha ha, yes, I'm trolling.

Thanks for going back and watching tape to prove I'm "dancing". May I suggest a hobby for you? If Mick took him out for the shot it'd be the first time. He himself has said he'd never take someone out for taking a shot. Mick's words, not mine.

And concluding that a shot wasn't a bad shot because the other team didn't end up scoring on their next possession is another stupid argument.

Wow, can you post anything truthful. I think my exact words were, "It was probably a negative because it came so early in ths shot clock." I also said that it didn't end up hurting us, but it obviously could have." Nowhere did I say it wasn't a bad shot because the other team didn't score on their next possession. I have to stay with my trolling comment, because you continue to fabricate stuff to cause negativity. It's easy to fact check this just like I did to you. It's only a couple pages back. Have at it.

Oh by the way, not a single person in my section yelled "Nooooooooo" when Jenifer took that shot. Probably because we can see well from our floor seats and knew he was wide open and had hit about 50% of those thus far. He was set, on balance, and wide open. It was, based on those advanced stats that certain people can't get past, a shot that absolutely should have been taken. Stats don't lie!

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Two things were wrong with Jenifers shot

1 to early in shot clock

2 he missed.

The scouting report on JJ coming into school was he needed to work on his outside shot. Great facilitator and finds open man. I'd say from the eye test that is still accurate. I Don't need to look at his shooting percentage to know he is not a pure shooter. I watch every game and he has banked in at least two of his 3's. That is luck. If you think it's not you have never played the game.

His primary role this year should be to spell Troy. He is not a difference maker at this point in his career.

Like some I have always said I considered Troy more of a off guard the a traditional PG. Out of necessity that has not been possible and will not be the case this year. Troy is our best option running the point by far. This team is built to have a very good year this season. Playing a freshman major minutes with the hope he improves by years end is not a option nor should it be on this years team. You also have to take into consideration the guys playing around Troy. Mick's offense is set up to allow the PG to take advantage of their strengths as well.Mick sees these guys everyday. He undestands what his game plan is and how each players ability fit into it. Debating what we would do versus what he does is comical. It's fun but not practical. He has all the info. We have very little. Mick knows the game and gets the most out of his players. Those are his strengths. In today's College game where he is lacking is landing the one and doners that a few others routinely get. My opinion is if he got the same kids Calipari got the results would be very similar. To be a major program year after year in today's game those are the kids you need. We are a not those schools. We land good kids, make the tourney with kids who stay 4 years and compete their butts off for school and coach. We may make a serious run for the title on occasion but we are not in position to reload after every season. If that is your expectation I see why you may be unhappy. Guys it's a different era. Can we become that type of program. I really do not know the answer.

My intention is to enjoy the season. It should be a exciting one. Will make the tourney and hopefully make some loud noise in it. We will not win it. I'm not going to drive myself crazy trying to second guess strategy after every loss. Especially when I know I'm not qualified or lack most of the info. I'm disappointed we lost to a good Butler team. Next game!!!

 

[Bulldog01]

So all Tim Duncan bank shots luck?

 

[coachpipe]

So all Tim Duncan bank shots luck?

I dont really think those are good comparisons at all. Tim Duncan is trying to hit the backboard. Go ask Justin if he is trying to bank in a 3. guarantee he says no. Noone actually tries to bank in a 3. Justin basically throws a knuckle ball

 

[waterhead]

So because Mick doesn't tell them to shoot from wherever, they don't take bad shots? Yet L-T is arguing that Mick yanked Deberry for a bad shot. Bad shots happen all the time for UC and in college basketball.

It was ill-advised because it was early in the shot clock, I believe he either took a dribble to his right or was leaning to his right (perhaps L-T can verify this for me), and there had been no inside penetration or passing at that point. Just about the entire section sitting by me was yelling "nooooo!" when he took it. It was not a good shot.



Ha ha ha, yes, I'm trolling.

Thanks for going back and watching tape to prove I'm "dancing". May I suggest a hobby for you? If Mick took him out for the shot it'd be the first time. He himself has said he'd never take someone out for taking a shot. Mick's words, not mine.

And concluding that a shot wasn't a bad shot because the other team didn't end up scoring on their next possession is another stupid argument.

Of course players take bad shots sometimes...I get that. Mick will not pull a guy for missing appropriate shots but he will pull them for taking a dumb shot.

However, you would have had no problem with Troy or Cobb or Evans taking that shot early in the clock because it was wide freaking open. You only have a problem with it because you don't think he's a very good shooter (which is an opinion I would be ok with). My point is...if he was that awful he wouldn't be averaging 5.8 three point attempts per 40 minutes because Mick would put the hammer down on that and make it clear in practice when and why JJ is allowed to shoot 3's. That would include early in the shot clock or heavily guarded etc.

 

[waterhead]

Two things were wrong with Jenifers shot

1 to early in shot clock

2 he missed.

The scouting report on JJ coming into school was he needed to work on his outside shot. Great facilitator and finds open man. I'd say from the eye test that is still accurate. I Don't need to look at his shooting percentage to know he is not a pure shooter. I watch every game and he has banked in at least two of his 3's. That is luck. If you think it's not you have never played the game.

His primary role this year should be to spell Troy. He is not a difference maker at this point in his career.

Like some I have always said I considered Troy more of a off guard the a traditional PG. Out of necessity that has not been possible and will not be the case this year. Troy is our best option running the point by far. This team is built to have a very good year this season. Playing a freshman major minutes with the hope he improves by years end is not a option nor should it be on this years team. You also have to take into consideration the guys playing around Troy. Mick's offense is set up to allow the PG to take advantage of their strengths as well.Mick sees these guys everyday. He undestands what his game plan is and how each players ability fit into it. Debating what we would do versus what he does is comical. It's fun but not practical. He has all the info. We have very little. Mick knows the game and gets the most out of his players. Those are his strengths. In today's College game where he is lacking is landing the one and doners that a few others routinely get. My opinion is if he got the same kids Calipari got the results would be very similar. To be a major program year after year in today's game those are the kids you need. We are a not those schools. We land good kids, make the tourney with kids who stay 4 years and compete their butts off for school and coach. We may make a serious run for the title on occasion but we are not in position to reload after every season. If that is your expectation I see why you may be unhappy. Guys it's a different era. Can we become that type of program. I really do not know the answer.

My intention is to enjoy the season. It should be a exciting one. Will make the tourney and hopefully make some loud noise in it. We will not win it. I'm not going to drive myself crazy trying to second guess strategy after every loss. Especially when I know I'm not qualified or lack most of the info. I'm disappointed we lost to a good Butler team. Next game!!!

#2 is just silly

#1 here is my opinion. In the early part of the season almost EVERYONE was raving about fast pace and taking first open looks. My guess is the same with you...you didn't like the shot because you don't think he's a good shooter not because it was early. I would have yelled for Troy, Cobb, Evans or KJ to shoot that shot

 

[waterhead]

My point in all of this is it was not "ill advised" unless Cronin told JJ not to shoot 3's early in the shot clock. Because otherwise he was wide open

 

[L-T]

Two things were wrong with Jenifers shot

1 to early in shot clock

2 he missed.

The scouting report on JJ coming into school was he needed to work on his outside shot. Great facilitator and finds open man. I'd say from the eye test that is still accurate. I Don't need to look at his shooting percentage to know he is not a pure shooter. I watch every game and he has banked in at least two of his 3's. That is luck. If you think it's not you have never played the game.

His primary role this year should be to spell Troy. He is not a difference maker at this point in his career.

Like some I have always said I considered Troy more of a off guard the a traditional PG. Out of necessity that has not been possible and will not be the case this year. Troy is our best option running the point by far. This team is built to have a very good year this season. Playing a freshman major minutes with the hope he improves by years end is not a option nor should it be on this years team. You also have to take into consideration the guys playing around Troy. Mick's offense is set up to allow the PG to take advantage of their strengths as well.Mick sees these guys everyday. He undestands what his game plan is and how each players ability fit into it. Debating what we would do versus what he does is comical. It's fun but not practical. He has all the info. We have very little. Mick knows the game and gets the most out of his players. Those are his strengths. In today's College game where he is lacking is landing the one and doners that a few others routinely get. My opinion is if he got the same kids Calipari got the results would be very similar. To be a major program year after year in today's game those are the kids you need. We are a not those schools. We land good kids, make the tourney with kids who stay 4 years and compete their butts off for school and coach. We may make a serious run for the title on occasion but we are not in position to reload after every season. If that is your expectation I see why you may be unhappy. Guys it's a different era. Can we become that type of program. I really do not know the answer.

My intention is to enjoy the season. It should be a exciting one. Will make the tourney and hopefully make some loud noise in it. We will not win it. I'm not going to drive myself crazy trying to second guess strategy after every loss. Especially when I know I'm not qualified or lack most of the info. I'm disappointed we lost to a good Butler team. Next game!!!

Ok, so you're reintroducing the discussion of Mick's performance back into the forum? I've barely mentioned him this year, because he is finally doing some of the things I've complained about in past years.....better recruiting and more offense. Don't give us this different era BS Waite. We're in an era where schools like VCU, Butler, George Mason, Dayton, etc. can go to the final 4 and compete for a national title. Those schools traditions are so far below ours, their not even on the radar. So, you're right, it is a different era and now there's more chance than ever to compete for a national title! We hired Mick Cronin because Huggs wasn't doing enough supposedly. Everyone was fed up with 2nd round exits. That's all you heard on these forums 10 years ago from the Cronin supporters. The bottom line is he hasn't recruited good enough....until now. This is why I've barely mentioned his name this year, but now you're back and hijacking threads with this stuff again, so I'm responding. You could say the same thing about football. We're spending money like a drunken sailor on football with a desire to be a real player nationally, something where there's a better chance of finding a snowball in hell.

As far as Jenifer's shot is concerned, I was the "first" to say that you can't look at the stupid stats. My eye test says Jenifer is not a good shooter. I also supported that with bringing up his banked in shots. So don't lecture me about this stuff when it was me who first brought it up. For the forum in general, you can't get on me about using the eye test and counter it with the stats, and then on the other hand, when I use the stats, you bring up the eye test. There are a lot of hippocrits in here. By the way, I was the one who went back and re-watched the whole shot and disclosed the fact that it was early in the shot clock. To that point, not a single person had mentioned it. So, if I was trying to play games, that is a key point that I didn't even have to disclose, but I did. For the 100th time, I do not feel that Jenifer should be starting, so don't bring it up again. My stance is, he is a true point guard, something we've never had under Mick, so we should be doing everything possible to get this kid ready to run this team, because when he does, we'll finally have someone that truly belongs in that position.

Please don't start the Mick Cronin superlatives agenda again. It been fun to finally get past that tired discussion.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Two things were wrong with Jenifers shot

1 to early in shot clock

2 he missed.

The scouting report on JJ coming into school was he needed to work on his outside shot. Great facilitator and finds open man. I'd say from the eye test that is still accurate. I Don't need to look at his shooting percentage to know he is not a pure shooter. I watch every game and he has banked in at least two of his 3's. That is luck. If you think it's not you have never played the game.

His primary role this year should be to spell Troy. He is not a difference maker at this point in his career.

Like some I have always said I considered Troy more of a off guard the a traditional PG. Out of necessity that has not been possible and will not be the case this year. Troy is our best option running the point by far. This team is built to have a very good year this season. Playing a freshman major minutes with the hope he improves by years end is not a option nor should it be on this years team. You also have to take into consideration the guys playing around Troy. Mick's offense is set up to allow the PG to take advantage of their strengths as well.Mick sees these guys everyday. He undestands what his game plan is and how each players ability fit into it. Debating what we would do versus what he does is comical. It's fun but not practical. He has all the info. We have very little. Mick knows the game and gets the most out of his players. Those are his strengths. In today's College game where he is lacking is landing the one and doners that a few others routinely get. My opinion is if he got the same kids Calipari got the results would be very similar. To be a major program year after year in today's game those are the kids you need. We are a not those schools. We land good kids, make the tourney with kids who stay 4 years and compete their butts off for school and coach. We may make a serious run for the title on occasion but we are not in position to reload after every season. If that is your expectation I see why you may be unhappy. Guys it's a different era. Can we become that type of program. I really do not know the answer.

My intention is to enjoy the season. It should be a exciting one. Will make the tourney and hopefully make some loud noise in it. We will not win it. I'm not going to drive myself crazy trying to second guess strategy after every loss. Especially when I know I'm not qualified or lack most of the info. I'm disappointed we lost to a good Butler team. Next game!!!

I agree with most of your post. The part I don't agree with is where you say we can't reload after every year. I think we're set up to be at least as good as we are right now for the next 3+ years. We lose 4 seniors after this year, but in comes upperclassman Washington, top 50 player Cumberland, and a very capable big-bodied Brooks. And we're not even done with this class. Not to mention Caupain, KJ, Evans, Clark, Scott, Moore and Jenifer will all still be around. I think we have become a "reload" program bc Mick has landed a "franchise" player each of the last 4 classes going back to 2013.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

My point in all of this is it was not "ill advised" unless Cronin told JJ not to shoot 3's early in the shot clock. Because otherwise he was wide open

Jenifer will learn. For me, it's the fact that he seems to be so aggressively looking to shoot. Out of everyone on the team, we need that from him the least at this point.

 

[waterhead]

On Jenifer. I understand the scouting report on him was he needed to improve his 3 point shooting and I am sure that is true. It's been hard finding stats but his sophomore season I saw a stat where he was 25 of 42 for about 60%. This year he's hitting 43% with a couple of bank ins.

While I don't think he's got a great looking shot...I am guessing he can make low 30's % and we only had one guy over 35% last year (or the year before). In closing...I don't care what it looks like if it can go in roughly 1 out of 3 tries. The fact that he's taken so many in games and some from fairly long distance makes me think Cronin is at least semi-OK with it.

Someone who has been to practice would probably know more than me

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

#2 is just silly

#1 here is my opinion. In the early part of the season almost EVERYONE was raving about fast pace and taking first open looks. My guess is the same with you...you didn't like the shot because you don't think he's a good shooter not because it was early. I would have yelled for Troy, Cobb, Evans or KJ to shoot that shot

WH I posted #2 to lighten the mood. Justin was wide open. if he can not draw the defense to him by making a wide open shot it will be difficult for him to create for others. He is young he has time to develop. Some things he brings to the table from my limited exposure I like very much.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I agree with most of your post. The part I don't agree with is where you say we can't reload after every year. I think we're set up to be at least as good as we are right now for the next 3+ years. We lose 4 seniors after this year, but in comes upperclassman Washington, top 50 player Cumberland, and a very capable big-bodied Brooks. And we're not even done with this class. Not to mention Caupain, KJ, Evans, Clark, Scott, Moore and Jenifer will all still be around. I think we have become a "reload" program bc Mick has landed a "franchise" player each of the last 4 classes going back to 2013.

Jacob I see your point we do reload but not to the extent we get a new team of 5 star recruits every year. Mick brings in kids who are in need of development and time and does a good job with them. The caliber of recruit he is landing seems to be getting better. I hope the trend continues. you will not hear me complain about the kids he is bringing in. I like the idea of student athletes. I raised a family of them.

 

[waterhead]

WH I posted #2 to lighten the mood. Justin was wide open. if he can not draw the defense to him by making a wide open shot it will be difficult for him to create for others. He is young he has time to develop. Some things he brings to the table from my limited exposure I like very much.

OK Waite...I believe you on #2...lol.

What happens if he doesn't take open looks at all? The same thing as if he misses all his shots...his defender will sag. If he can manage to make 1 of 3 of them the defender will have to stay up on him and that opens up his penetration. We need him to be able to make 1/3 for him to be at his most effective.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

OK Waite...I believe you on #2...lol.

What happens if he doesn't take open looks at all? The same thing as if he misses all his shots...his defender will sag. If he can manage to make 1 of 3 of them the defender will have to stay up on him and that opens up his penetration. We need him to be able to make 1/3 for him to be at his most effective.

would love to see him at 33%r higher. I like what he brings to the table especially in the running game.