Butler

[cincrulz11]

This may happen but I don't think it will be a good development. We aren't particularly effective when this happens. Best bet is that Jenifer figures out what Mick wants to see

His best bet is to never turn the ball over. His TOrate keeps rising with each game he plays. It stands at 29.9% now. He passed Moore for worst % on the team.


Also in the 3 games against better teams, his TO% is 37.9. That's insane.

 

[cincrulz11]

I'm worried about our 3 point defense. It's been horrible. Whatever defense we're in, it has flashes of terrible communication and leaves shooters wide open.

It really looks like defense hasn't been the focal point of the early season like it usually is. That will probably change. They aren't moving well together as a team on defense.

 

[HoosierCat]

Lets revisit the facts. He came in the game and immediately penetrated into the lane, drew the defense to him and dished to the corner to a then wide open KJ, who drilled the 3. Next time down the court, they screened for him and he made the same move and his feet completly slid out from under him. He did not trip over his feet, he appeared to slip on something on the court, which became a turnover. He then was wide open on the wing and took the shot and missed. Mick left him on the court for significant time after that shot, so it didn't appear he was upset with the shot at all. He then proceeded to make a very good defensive play and stole the ball from their PG, drove to the basket and was fouled hard, and converted 1 of his 2 free throws. He stayed in a little longer and then was subbed out. So when people make comments that Mick just can't play him when he plays like that, that's just not telling the real story. He missed a shot, and he slipped. Other than that, he played very well.

Agree with this. He's still a freshman at the end of the day, but this team will need minutes out of him. I would like to see less 3's and more driving, but not complaining. He will get it figured out

 

[L-T]

I don't think Jenifer played poorly but there is a reason why Mick will only play him for 5-7 minutes in close games. He trusts every other player on the team to give up to 20 minutes or more except for Jenifer and Moore. I don't know exactly why that is but if he was productive (in the sense that Mick defines it) then he would be thrown into the mix more.

I think it is more about the importance of the position itself. Putting a freshman in a leadership or decision making position doesn't always work out. Xavier has done it and it seems to be working. Troy gives us stability and consistency. Mick seems to value that over risk at this point.

 

[UCalum08]

It really looks like defense hasn't been the focal point of the early season like it usually is. That will probably change. They aren't moving well together as a team on defense.

I agree, after listening to Cronin he is going to get in the players asses at practice. The current team doesn't want to do the little things that has made Cincy bball what it is.

 

[L-T]

I agree, after listening to Cronin he is going to get in the players asses at practice. The current team doesn't want to do the little things that has made Cincy bball what it is.

What is Cincy basketball? No outright championships for quite a while. Boring, slow, offense and tough defense that has recently resulted in 5 straight trips to the NCAA, with quick exits. Our program should be looking to become more than what Cincy basketball is, because what it is, is not good enough. The answer is to improve the offense and maintain the defense. The first has started to happen and the second has not happened yet. Just fine tune it. We're going in the right direction.

 

[UCalum08]

What is Cincy basketball? No outright championships for quite a while. Boring, slow, offense and tough defense that has recently resulted in 5 straight trips to the NCAA, with quick exits. Our program should be looking to become more than what Cincy basketball is, because what it is, is not good enough. The answer is to improve the offense and maintain the defense. The first has started to happen and the second has not happened yet. Just fine tune it. We're going in the right direction.

Yeah exactly. Just because we have a little bit more offense talent doesn't mean they can bypass doing the little things that have made Cincy basketball successful. Whether that fits in your definition as successful is up to you.

 

[waterhead]

His best bet is to never turn the ball over. His TOrate keeps rising with each game he plays. It stands at 29.9% now. He passed Moore for worst % on the team.


Also in the 3 games against better teams, his TO% is 37.9. That's insane.

There you go with your "advanced stats" again

You should trust your eyes more. My eyes are telling me he's not playing much lately. The stats are just telling my eyes why...lol!

 

[TheLongHaul]

Lets revisit the facts. He came in the game and immediately penetrated into the lane, drew the defense to him and dished to the corner to a then wide open KJ, who drilled the 3. Next time down the court, they screened for him and he made the same move and his feet completly slid out from under him. He did not trip over his feet, he appeared to slip on something on the court, which became a turnover. He then was wide open on the wing and took the shot and missed. Mick left him on the court for significant time after that shot, so it didn't appear he was upset with the shot at all. He then proceeded to make a very good defensive play and stole the ball from their PG, drove to the basket and was fouled hard, and converted 1 of his 2 free throws. He stayed in a little longer and then was subbed out. So when people make comments that Mick just can't play him when he plays like that, that's just not telling the real story. He missed a shot, and he slipped. Other than that, he played very well.

I figured you would immediately come out with a response if it is about Jenifer. Not sure many people would say Jenifer played very well last night. If you take out the bad components from everyone's game, they all played very well.

He took a bad shot. It's one thing to take and airball a open 3, but he should never be forcing shots at this juncture.

And will you please stop using Mick allowing him to shoot or not yanking him when he takes a bad shot as an argument. Not sure how many more times I can state that Mick does not take players out for shooting...ever.

 

[L-T]

I figured you would immediately come out with a response if it is about Jenifer. Not sure many people would say Jenifer played very well last night. If you take out the bad components from everyone's game, they all played very well.

He took a bad shot. It's one thing to take and airball a open 3, but he should never be forcing shots at this juncture.

And will you please stop using Mick allowing him to shoot or not yanking him when he takes a bad shot as an argument. Not sure how many more times I can state that Mick does not take players out for shooting...ever.

Well so far its 2 guys say he didn't play well, and 2 say he played well. The fact that he doesn't take guys out for shooting tells me he wants guys to shoot, especially when they are open. I have seen him remove guys for shooting many times though. Last night when Deberry shot from above the free throw line, Mick immediately pointed down the bench and got him out of the game. If you're not seeing it, then you need to pay better attention.

 

[Bearcat_NTS]

Thinking back to the game today, I feel somewhat optimistic for this season. Our offense is starting to get better and we have multiple guys that can score 10 points any given night. The defense will come around, and Mick will make sure this team is tough by the end of the season. Lots of room for improvement.

 

[mdchick]

If Troy is going to pick up full court all game he can't play as much as he did last night. I think he is better than Jenifer right now, but a exhausted caupain is not better than a fresh jenifer. Jenifer needs to play 12 mins a game and keep caupain fresh.

 

[TheLongHaul]

Well so far its 2 guys say he didn't play well, and 2 say he played well. The fact that he doesn't take guys out for shooting tells me he wants guys to shoot, especially when they are open. I have seen him remove guys for shooting many times though. Last night when Deberry shot from above the free throw line, Mick immediately pointed down the bench and got him out of the game. If you're not seeing it, then you need to pay better attention.

He didn't yank him for the shot. He wasn't happy about it but DeBerry had just given up points on the other end. Just because Mick gives players freedom doesn't mean he is happy with any shot. He was pretty disgusted with some of Evans' shots last night as well.

If Troy is going to pick up full court all game he can't play as much as he did last night. I think he is better than Jenifer right now, but a exhausted caupain is not better than a fresh jenifer. Jenifer needs to play 12 mins a game and keep caupain fresh.

Agreed, which is why it's so important that Mick established Jenifer's role. And that role isn't to be the main guy.

 

[waterhead]

I figured you would immediately come out with a response if it is about Jenifer. Not sure many people would say Jenifer played very well last night. If you take out the bad components from everyone's game, they all played very well.

He took a bad shot. It's one thing to take and airball a open 3, but he should never be forcing shots at this juncture.

And will you please stop using Mick allowing him to shoot or not yanking him when he takes a bad shot as an argument. Not sure how many more times I can state that Mick does not take players out for shooting...ever.

He may not pull players during the game for taking an ill advised shot but you have to know that Cronin tells each player in practice what is considered acceptable from them during a game in terms of where they can shoot from and when and why.

If you think Jenifer is going to shoot open 3's EVEN if Cronin has told him in practice not to...you're crazy. He was wide open...he took it...he missed...big deal

 

[cincrulz11]

There you go with your "advanced stats" again

You should trust your eyes more. My eyes are telling me he's not playing much lately. The stats are just telling my eyes why...lol!

Why is there this perception that people that like to look at advanced stats don't use their eyes? And I honestly don't consider turnover % an advanced stat, it's an easy to calculate stat that should have been in the game since forever. Just because nobody used it in the past doesn't mean it's advanced (OBP in baseball is totally a sabermetric stat right lol).


I sure don't need "advanced stats" to tell me Ellis turns it over too much, Clark turns it over too much, and Jenifer turns it over too much. I don't need advance stats to tell me Evans is really efficient on offense or that KJ has been better with the ball this year (although still has his moments for sure).


But I'm gonna pay way more attention to stats than some random dude on a message board saying "yeah but my eyes told me this so its true".

 

[waterhead]

Why is there this perception that people that like to look at advanced stats don't use their eyes? And I honestly don't consider turnover % an advanced stat, it's an easy to calculate stat that should have been in the game since forever. Just because nobody used it in the past doesn't mean it's advanced (OBP in baseball is totally a sabermetric stat right lol).


I sure don't need "advanced stats" to tell me Ellis turns it over too much, Clark turns it over too much, and Jenifer turns it over too much. I don't need advance stats to tell me Evans is really efficient on offense or that KJ has been better with the ball this year (although still has his moments for sure).


But I'm gonna pay way more attention to stats than some random dude on a message board saying "yeah but my eyes told me this so its true".

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I love stats!!

 

[cincrulz11]

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I love stats!!

You aren't the person/people that mock them. And it's not just something that is confined to basketball.


But I was being serious, why do people think those that used advanced stats don't watch the game and see things.

 

[waterhead]

You aren't the person/people that mock them. And it's not just something that is confined to basketball.


But I was being serious, why do people think those that used advanced stats don't watch the game and see things.

Those that don't like the stats means the stats don't usually support their position and so they defer to the "eye test" or "common sense". Then when the stats support their position they will be sure to cite them...lol!!

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Why is there this perception that people that like to look at advanced stats don't use their eyes? And I honestly don't consider turnover % an advanced stat, it's an easy to calculate stat that should have been in the game since forever. Just because nobody used it in the past doesn't mean it's advanced (OBP in baseball is totally a sabermetric stat right lol).


I sure don't need "advanced stats" to tell me Ellis turns it over too much, Clark turns it over too much, and Jenifer turns it over too much. I don't need advance stats to tell me Evans is really efficient on offense or that KJ has been better with the ball this year (although still has his moments for sure).


But I'm gonna pay way more attention to stats than some random dude on a message board saying "yeah but my eyes told me this so its true".

I use stats in basketball much less than any other sport. For me, it is about using them to confirm what I'm seeing. I'd be surprised if there was a stat out there about our team that just totally blows my doors off.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Those that don't like the stats means the stats don't usually support their position and so they defer to the "eye test" or "common sense". Then when the stats support their position they will be sure to cite them...lol!!

How often in basketball is there a huge difference (assuming you have a reasonable sample size) between what you see and what the stats say?