Comparable Comparison To UC

[catsfan32]

You really haven't responded to any points I have made.

And sarcastically mentioning the money issue (and subsequent issue of bringing a quality coach in) doesn't make it less true.

Think about what UC faces right now. The conference we are in is absolutely loaded with top programs and top coaches. It may not be too difficult to get close to the middle of the pack, but it is extremely difficult to get anywhere near the top. Would it really be a smart career move for Steve Alford (who already left his job in the Big 10 because his results weren't good enough for his fan base) to come to UC, where we have a small athletic budget compared to our peers, are in significant debt, and have an awful fan base that doesn't support the program unless you are good (in college athletics, this doesn't cut it). Why would he leave. He already experienced that and left because he wasn't appreciated. Now you think he is going to come back to a similar situation? Doesn't make any sense.

And just to counter the rebuttal before it is already made, this isn't about settling for mediocrity. This is about understanding our circumstances, being realistic and looking for what is best for our program. If we could go out and lure a slam dunk to UC, I would strongly consider that option. But that simply isn't the case right now. I have been extremely frustrated with UC to the point that I have stopped posting about them for awhile, but that doesn't mean its right to fire Cronin when there has been progress every year. He is young, is capable or learning on the job as most coaches do early in their careers and continues to bring in nice talent. That to me is much better than the alternative (mid-major coach with unknown recruiting abilities at the highest level and no ties to the university).

You said everything I was going to say about this thread. Some people lack patience and understanding, which those same people resourcefully call settling for "mediocrity".

 

[lumberjack]

To spell it out, here's why this comparison is important whether you care about IU and Tom Crean or not:

• Tom Crean is considered by most to be a good coach, and has even been used by (pardon the term) Mick haters as the standard of success. "You'll see how quickly Tom Crean puts IU back on the map" they'd say.
• Tom Crean is not currently showing the results (again, pardon the term) Mick haters expected.
• So, a good coach at a program in a similar situation to UC is not rebuilding any faster than UC.
• This either means that Tom Crean is not a good coach (which we discounted in the first point)...or UC's current rebuilding speed can't be used to determine Mick's ability as a coach.
• As a result, the conclusion can't reasonably be made that things would get better if Mick were replaced, because it can't be reasonably concluded that Mick is the problem.
• Therefore, those calling for Mick's firing due to the lack of progress made are illogical.

Logic = win.

Maybe the situation both of these schools are in is just too difficult to be rebuilt in 3-4 years. That's what the Tom Crean comparison is meant to show...and I think it does so successfully.

I do not hate Mick! I hate bad basketball! period!

 

[lumberjack]

You cannot compare the two programs first off.

It is only his 2nd year at IU.

IU just last year faced serious NCAA Allegations. In the end that hurts rercuiting and not to mention he had 1 scholy player back. On top of that he lost 3 schollys to self imposed punishment by IU. This is his second year and like lumberjack mentioned they play smart bball.

PUT ALL THAT ASIDE:
Here is what Mick "Haters" or what you call us based our decisions on
-lack of player progression under Mick, players remain same or get worse
-lack of hustle or bad attidude, if he can't change them he does recruit them
-play calling out of time-outs, exception of Bishops 3 down 5 vs nova haven't seen much production
-execution and free throw shooting, said this before but once it becomes a team problem it becomes Micks problem.

Once Mick gets his "Feel Sorry Year" i mean 5th year, give me Steve Alford!!!

Yes, he gets it!.

 

[lumberjack]

Respectfully disagree.



All of your criticism of the players' lack of progression, ability to run offense, etc. can be explained by the caliber of player Mick has had to recruit over the past few years. Only last year did we start to get players that are what we expect in terms of talent from a UC team. That's why it's called rebuilding. We start with what we can get, and as those players exit the system through graduation or eligibility exhaustion we get players better than them. And the process is repeated until we get where we used to be.

That's happening. Adam H < Wilks, Davis < Dixon, Wright < Stephenson, Parker.

We have players with the level of talent we hope for, and we have players with the level of experience we need...but we have precious few players with both (Deonta and maybe Rashad).

forget the talent for the last time. I'm talking about stupid basketball. Better talent on this team would be great but we would still not be great because of all the issues.

 

[lumberjack]

You absolutely can compare the two programs. Their are differences (IU was able to hire a name coach, IU is in an weaker conference, IU has a bigger name in the basketball world, IU has a MUCH better fan base, IU's problems carried some NCAA sanctions, most of UC's problems were self imposed) but still, the situation the two coaches began with was very, very similar.



Mick had a better first year and a better second year than Crean is having at IU. Those seasons are the ones that are being compared. Just because they didn't happen at the same time doesn't make them not comparable.



Again, the why is different, but the what is the same. We faced NCAA sanctions that our coach asked for immediately (loss of scholarships) and then needed a near perfect APR in order to stop that from happening again. Our recruiting was hurt because it didn't happen for 2.5 years. When our coach was hired, we had one scholarship player (McGowan) and two walk ons (Allen and Miller) with no recruits anywhere on the horizon. And you think they play smart ball because you aren't emotionally attached and realize their limitations, but in the end what does it matter if they are playing at a significantly worse level than UC was in year one and year 2. In fact, UC played at a higher level in year 1 than IU is playing in year 2.



We have gotten better every year under Mick. Even this year, where our record may end up being worse, objective measures such as Pomeroy, Sagarin or the flawed RPI showed a marked improvement. The progress may not be fast enough for some of you, but it is definitely there. The question you have to ask yourself is, how much will be lost if Mick is fired (because it is possible we could lose a lot) and is there a coach we could hire that would make it worth it (given our financial situation and generally worthless fan base, I would strongly argue no).

This team works hard. They are a good defensive team and one of the best rebounding teams in the country. There may be lapses (but that is true for EVERY team), but if you think work ethic is a problem, I have to strongly question your opinion or what the hell you are watching.

Generally our play calling out of timeouts is pretty good.

What! factually incorrect. What the hell are you wathcing? Thanks for picking up the prize tonight!

 

[lumberjack]

prize remark was directed to adrock!

 

[Not Guilty]

What! factually incorrect. What the hell are you wathcing? Thanks for picking up the prize tonight!

Aside from not making sense, you have offered nothing to this debate.

 

[bearcat jeff]

Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding, Ding. We have a winner ladies and gentlemen.

I agree, this is exactly why some think this.

 

[bearcat jeff]

Here we go again. I have no issue with people that would like a coaching change as long as they make sense in the reason they call for one. If you want one come up with a better reason than "Mick isn't a good coach" because that is simply not true.

Why is it some people completely ignore the hole Mick Cronin started in but they want to give a coach like Tom Crean a pass? I believe it is because some are bitter at Mick for leaving Huggins and going to Louisville. Some have never wanted Mick here, I have heard it said many times, and some have never wanted him to succeed.

Let's give the man credit for what he has done in extraordinary circumstances. I'd like to see a change but not because I believe Mick Cronin is a bad coach. I think he was a bridge between the devastation left by Zimpher/Huggins and he has rebuilt the foundation of the program. But I also believe his work is done because there are those that have clung to the past and this city now needs someone else so the program and fan base can heal. His X's and O's are fine to me but he hasn't been able to raise "this" team to the next level, but I don't believe it is all his fault, just his responsibility.

However, I don't think a 5th year is a pity year. If he is allowed a 5th season I can understand why given all the things he has done that are positive. An argument can be made that based on those things he deserves it and if he gets it I'll cheer for him and the team. The team is truly right at the door to turning the corner.

My thoughts are well known. I'd move on but for reasons other than what some would advocate. Let's give him credit either way and support the program.

 

[ready2go]

Myself and Lumberjack see the light....


Your arguments have nothing to do with the ability to coach what so ever. Stop making excuses for Mick. Its obvious there is sooo much biasy going on here.

Everytime a change in coach is brought up...here are the excuses from you:

Why would he come here?
We don't have the money!
He's worse coach than Mick!
Mick is my lover!

Dah Dah Dah Dah Dah....

 

[ready2go]

Here we go again. I have no issue with people that would like a coaching change as long as they make sense in the reason they call for one. If you want one come up with a better reason than "Mick isn't a good coach" because that is simply not true.

Why is it some people completely ignore the hole Mick Cronin started in but they want to give a coach like Tom Crean a pass? I believe it is because some are bitter at Mick for leaving Huggins and going to Louisville. Some have never wanted Mick here, I have heard it said many times, and some have never wanted him to succeed.

Let's give the man credit for what he has done in extraordinary circumstances. I'd like to see a change but not because I believe Mick Cronin is a bad coach. I think he was a bridge between the devastation left by Zimpher/Huggins and he has rebuilt the foundation of the program. But I also believe his work is done because there are those that have clung to the past and this city now needs someone else so the program and fan base can heal. His X's and O's are fine to me but he hasn't been able to raise "this" team to the next level, but I don't believe it is all his fault, just his responsibility.

However, I don't think a 5th year is a pity year. If he is allowed a 5th season I can understand why given all the things he has done that are positive. An argument can be made that based on those things he deserves it and if he gets it I'll cheer for him and the team. The team is truly right at the door to turning the corner.

My thoughts are well known. I'd move on but for reasons other than what some would advocate. Let's give him credit either way and support the program.

I have stated all along that he has taken us as far as he can..

Thanks for that Mick, but lets move on. Doris Burke knows her x's and o's!!!

 

[bearcat jeff]

I have stated all along that he has taken us as far as he can..

Thanks for that Mick, but lets move on. Doris Burke knows her x's and o's!!!

You also said you can't compare the two programs and you absolutely can. There were 2 seasons worth of recruiting lost when Mick Cronin took over UC. Tome Crean also inherited more scholarship players than Cronin. Very comparable situations and one reason why Tom Crean sought Mick cronin out when he was hired.

 

[bearcat jeff]

Myself and Lumberjack see the light....


Your arguments have nothing to do with the ability to coach what so ever. Stop making excuses for Mick. Its obvious there is sooo much biasy going on here.

Everytime a change in coach is brought up...here are the excuses from you:

Why would he come here?
We don't have the money!
He's worse coach than Mick!
Mick is my lover!

Dah Dah Dah Dah Dah....

Have never made an excue for him. I said at the beginning of the year it was NCAA or change. I just see his merits as well and those like you refuse to. That's why your called Huggafiles.

 

[Not Guilty]

Myself and Lumberjack see the light....


Your arguments have nothing to do with the ability to coach what so ever. Stop making excuses for Mick. Its obvious there is sooo much biasy going on here.

Everytime a change in coach is brought up...here are the excuses from you:

Why would he come here?
We don't have the money!
He's worse coach than Mick!
Mick is my lover!

Dah Dah Dah Dah Dah....

You are really, really bad at debate.

How does improvement every year not have anything to do with coaching?

And when a point you make is blown out of the water (in this case Steve Alford), mocking my point (or anyone else's) is an extremely weak argument, in case you were wondering.

 

[swg]

Sooner or later you will see the futility in trying to change someone's deeply held beliefs. The thing to remember is to state your point, don't make it personal (i.e. you suck at debates).
Do what I do..post and be objective, not emotional.

 

[ready2go]

You are really, really bad at debate.

How does improvement every year not have anything to do with coaching?

And when a point you make is blown out of the water (in this case Steve Alford), mocking my point (or anyone else's) is an extremely weak argument, in case you were wondering.

To bearcatjeff first....he too had one scholly player back and lost Ebanks and Holloway to other schools.

That aside

How is it improvment???????????

If it weren't for Depaul last year we would be in the NIT. CORRECT????

How is it improvment when players are not improving. Stats don't lie
Don't know how you can say stats don't tell the whole story... Its hard to judge Cash, and Thomas cause they haven't played in a year and Lance to me has not improved.

When your only argument becomes Huggylover what not, it makes you look weak.

oh and 18-14 last year and sit at 16-13 this year...Clap Clap tremoundous improvement. I'd love to play on your guys teams

 

[adrock]

Sooner or later you will see the futility in trying to change someone's deeply held beliefs.

If we all saw that, there would be no discussion on this board!

The thing to remember is to state your point, don't make it personal (i.e. you suck at debates).

+1.

 

[ucgrad94]

You are really, really bad at debate.

How does improvement every year not have anything to do with coaching?

And when a point you make is blown out of the water (in this case Steve Alford), mocking my point (or anyone else's) is an extremely weak argument, in case you were wondering.

IMO Mick has not done a great job. I have said he deserves this year and next, but that is in hope that he improves. Yes his win/loss record has improved every year, but its not really that hard when you play Cal State Bakersfield and beat them (A joke in reference to playing Wofford and losing). Mick has not really improved with Gates, Wilks, Dixon, Vaughn has gotten worse. Ibriahima has played a lot better down the stretch, but that can be attributed to wearing off the rust.

On another note, I have noticed that some of the so called "Moderators" have had some "personal" attacks on other members of this board. Im not sure if you think this is funny or empowering but I find it embarrassing as a UC fan.

 

[adrock]

...How is it improvment???????????

If it weren't for Depaul last year we would be in the NIT. CORRECT????

I'd love for you to quit abusing your question mark key.

 

[ucgrad94]

I'd love for you to quit abusing your question mark key.

Once again, I'd love for you (as a moderator) to set an example and stop with the personal attacks.