Houston: Round 2: The Battle for Everything

[cincrulz11]

You are judging guys way to early, which is no surprise since you didn't want them when they were recruited. Let's see how they play 1/2 years from now. Those guys shouldn't be expected to be starters in their first year after transferring. But I can say that quite a few of them would be valuable if they were still here.

who were the guys for next year that had been productive in their careers?

Keith.

who else? Now compare that with the last 5 years. Last year we had Cumberland, Jenifer, and Broome coming off productive seasons. The year before we had Clark, KWash, Evans, Cumberland coming off productive seasons. The year before we had Evans, Clark, Caupain. The year before we had Clark, Caupain, Cobb, Ellis.

Next year we would have Keith. Do you see the difference?

 

[TheLongHaul]

Vogt has a worse ORTG and DRTG than Diarra in conference. Vogt is just not a good player. At least Diarra has potential to become great. Vogt has potential to go down as the worst starting center at UC in the last 20 years.

lol.

 

[skyblade]

who were the guys for next year that had been productive in their careers?

Keith.

who else? Now compare that with the last 5 years. Last year we had Cumberland, Jenifer, and Broome coming off productive seasons. The year before we had Clark, KWash, Evans, Cumberland coming off productive seasons. The year before we had Evans, Clark, Caupain. The year before we had Clark, Caupain, Cobb, Ellis.

Next year we would have Keith. Do you see the difference?

The players who would have been productive aren't here (or in Diarra's case is sitting behind a worse player who fits Brannen system).

LoJo, Hardnett, Nsoseme, Diarra, Moore, Curtis. At least 2 or three of those guys would have been productive this year if Cronin was still here.

They aren't here because either Brannen couldn't convince them to stay or Brannen didn't want them. Either way, it's not Cronin's fault.

 

[TheLongHaul]

So Diarra, who was useless last year, would have been productive this year had Cronin been here? hahaha. Good one! Nsoseme had zero potential. The dude was a center and couldn't even dunk. Oh wait, here comes Skyblades per 40 rebound stat to explain that he would be an all american. lol.

 

[cincyguy13]

The players who would have been productive aren't here (or in Diarra's case is sitting behind a worse player who fits Brannen system).

LoJo, Hardnett, Nsoseme, Diarra, Moore, Curtis. At least 2 or three of those guys would have been productive this year if Cronin was still here.

They aren't here because either Brannen couldn't convince them to stay or Brannen didn't want them. Either way, it's not Cronin's fault.

Curtis, was going to be productive? What a take. Had a good coach at Nebraska, couldn’t get on the floor. Nsoseme plays at Georgia st for a reason. Lojo can’t see the floor. Why can’t any of these guys see the floor? Do you know more than every coach out there? Diarra has been given plenty of chances and shows some signs but also shows signs of being terrible.

 

[cincyalum2014]

Curtis, was going to be productive? What a take. Had a good coach at Nebraska, couldn’t get on the floor. Nsoseme plays at Georgia st for a reason. Lojo can’t see the floor. Why can’t any of these guys see the floor? Do you know more than every coach out there? Diarra has been given plenty of chances and shows some signs but also shows signs of being terrible.

Its baffling that people think that these guys who struggled last year for us who are still struggling with there new team would just be that much better here and would be a top 15 roster. The only significant player we lost to transfer was Brooks

 

[justinhub2003]

Curtis, was going to be productive? What a take. Had a good coach at Nebraska, couldn’t get on the floor. Nsoseme plays at Georgia st for a reason. Lojo can’t see the floor. Why can’t any of these guys see the floor? Do you know more than every coach out there? Diarra has been given plenty of chances and shows some signs but also shows signs of being terrible.

Man if giving up on guys In the first year is what everyone did, well we shoulda ran Keith Williams outta here.

He was trash his first year and was outplayed by Trevor Moore.

And because both Davenport and Harvey barely contribute and play like 5 min a game, we should probably kick them off the team.

 

[justinhub2003]

I have no idea what Samari Curtis could be. But he had two coaches dip out on him after he committed.

He wanted to stay local but because of those circumstances, he didn’t.

That can have a huge affect on a kid.

I’m confident Samari would have been good under mick.

 

[justinhub2003]

Its baffling that people think that these guys who struggled last year for us who are still struggling with there new team would just be that much better here and would be a top 15 roster. The only significant player we lost to transfer was Brooks

I wish brooks had stayed and we still got Vogt. He could have redshirted and gotten stronger.

Brooks is agile and protects the rim, I think is a big time player for Miami next year.

 

[cincyalum2014]

I wish brooks had stayed and we still got Vogt. He could have redshirted and gotten stronger.

Brooks is agile and protects the rim, I think is a big time player for Miami next year.

Agreed, Brooks was a huge hit and its very apparent we need a rim protector like Brooks, Vogt just isn't it and I don't think he ever will be in terms of a significant rebounder or rim protector. Now that teams have figured out how to guard him in conference Vogt has shown why he was a bench player last year. He played great against lower level non conference teams but has been kind of bullied in most of conference play..... But right now he's all we have so it is what it is

 

[cincrulz11]

Agreed, Brooks was a huge hit and its very apparent we need a rim protector like Brooks, Vogt just isn't it and I don't think he ever will be in terms of a significant rebounder or rim protector. Now that teams have figured out how to guard him in conference Vogt has shown why he was a bench player last year. He played great against lower level non conference teams but has been kind of bullied in most of conference play..... But right now he's all we have so it is what it is

Vogt has to play too much. Brooks only had to play 56% of the minutes. Vogt is at 70% and 73% in conference.


Thats just way too much to ask out of a big slow guy like Vogt. Vogt has only looked really bad the past 2 games. The others he wasn't getting the ball, these last 2 he's missed all his shots (of course houston and wichita st are 2 of the best paint defenders in the country).


Also Vogt is not a bad rim protector. His 5.8 block rate isn't what Brooks was, but its in line with Washington and Ellis. Gary Clark wasn't a center but I'm sure we all remember him getting blocks. He never had a blockrate of 5.8.

In terms of blockrate only 2 guys are clearly better and thats Brooks and Justin Jackson. Vogt holds his own when he's down in the paint.

 

[cincyguy13]

Man if giving up on guys In the first year is what everyone did, well we shoulda ran Keith Williams outta here.

He was trash his first year and was outplayed by Trevor Moore.

And because both Davenport and Harvey barely contribute and play like 5 min a game, we should probably kick them off the team.

I’m not giving up on these guys. We are talking about being productive and helping the team this year. Curtis would not have done that. Harvey actually looking good lately

 

[cincyguy13]

Vogt has to play too much. Brooks only had to play 56% of the minutes. Vogt is at 70% and 73% in conference.


Thats just way too much to ask out of a big slow guy like Vogt. Vogt has only looked really bad the past 2 games. The others he wasn't getting the ball, these last 2 he's missed all his shots (of course houston and wichita st are 2 of the best paint defenders in the country).


Also Vogt is not a bad rim protector. His 5.8 block rate isn't what Brooks was, but its in line with Washington and Ellis. Gary Clark wasn't a center but I'm sure we all remember him getting blocks. He never had a blockrate of 5.8.

In terms of blockrate only 2 guys are clearly better and thats Brooks and Justin Jackson. Vogt holds his own when he's down in the paint.

I still think Vogt can be a good piece. The thing is we are asking him to play 30+ minutes a game. He isn’t that type of player. He’d be a great piece to bring off the bench and get 15 minutes a game. In a perfect world. Thing is we have 3-4 of these types. Tre would be better if he wasn’t asked to much.

 

[cincyguy13]

I think Curtis could have been a decent 4 year guy but he wasn’t gonna be a jarron or Jacob or gary. Those guys came I and we’re good from the jump

 

[cincrulz11]

I still think Vogt can be a good piece. The thing is we are asking him to play 30+ minutes a game. He isn’t that type of player. He’d be a great piece to bring off the bench and get 15 minutes a game. In a perfect world. Thing is we have 3-4 of these types. Tre would be better if he wasn’t asked to much.

Vogt's play went down after Sorolla left. I wonder if he's more passive cause he knows he can't pick up any fouls.


Whatever it is I dont think any coach or fan wants to see Vogt playing 30+ every night.


Vogt and Diarra have both seen their defensive rounding % go way down in conference. Diarra hasn't grabbed one in his last 3 games (33 minutes worth).

 

[cincyguy13]

Vogt's play went down after Sorolla left. I wonder if he's more passive cause he knows he can't pick up any fouls.


Whatever it is I dont think any coach or fan wants to see Vogt playing 30+ every night.


Vogt and Diarra have both seen their defensive rounding % go way down in conference. Diarra hasn't grabbed one in his last 3 games (33 minutes worth).

That’s honestly surprising. I thought we were told he was an elite rebounder.

 

[waterhead]

I don't think anyone thought Cronin was perfect. Playing zone constantly meant we were going to give up a relatively high percent of offensive rebounds. Now we play man-to-man and are about the same.

I wouldn't even be that concerned about the offensive rebounding, if it weren't a symptom of a bigger problem that we've been seeing for the last month or so. Lack of effort, focus and intensity.

That's the problem. We've rarely seen a Cronin/Huggins coached looked as uninterested in playing hard in a single game as our current team has looked for the last month.

A lot of people are comparing Brannen with Cronin and even Huggs. But Brannen has a completely different style of coaching like it or not. We know he is going to let guys play through mistakes more often rather than pulling players at the first sign of mistakes. We know he's not going to act like a maniac on the sidelines. We know he's going to recruit skills over athleticism unless he can get both.

He wants to sub offense off the bench not D. Cronin could sub D with guys who had no skill on offense but could come in and do the rest. Brannen's system doesn't work without the skills and shooting. Cronin's system could still work if he subbed low skill and high athleticism.

We can't make these comparisons because the systems are apples and oranges. We are going to have to sit back and see if Brannen can make things work for his system as he gets more and more of his recruits. This won't happen overnight. It's a shame we couldn't have a better season but it's not a death sentence.

We have to relax and hope we got our man. He's a very smart man with a different approach. We will build an identity and it won't be the same as year's past but that's fine with me. I give the guy 3 years to show he's headed in the right direction and the 4th year will be my decision year providing it doesn't go off the rails before that.

 

[waterhead]

Vogt's play went down after Sorolla left. I wonder if he's more passive cause he knows he can't pick up any fouls.


Whatever it is I dont think any coach or fan wants to see Vogt playing 30+ every night.


Vogt and Diarra have both seen their defensive rounding % go way down in conference. Diarra hasn't grabbed one in his last 3 games (33 minutes worth).

After Sorolla left there were games where coach had a decision to play Diara or Davenport. I am quite sure Vogt was asked to stay out of foul trouble even before Sorolla left.

I agree...he's not a 30+ minute guy in an ideal situation. We need him to be able to be somewhat aggressive and that would be better in a 25 minute scenario. But our options are limited. Vogt knows the system and Diara was still learning over half way through the season (and probably still is) and Davenport is not the answer. He was already being phased out until Sorolla left. He will be better in year 3 and 4.

 

[cincrulz11]

After Sorolla left there were games where coach had a decision to play Diara or Davenport. I am quite sure Vogt was asked to stay out of foul trouble even before Sorolla left.

I agree...he's not a 30+ minute guy in an ideal situation. We need him to be able to be somewhat aggressive and that would be better in a 25 minute scenario. But our options are limited. Vogt knows the system and Diara was still learning over half way through the season (and probably still is) and Davenport is not the answer. He was already being phased out until Sorolla left. He will be better in year 3 and 4.

And Davenport is injured and not playing now anyway

 

[waterhead]

I also get a kick out of the fans claiming the NCAA tourney is largely random in results. That randomness should have resulted in just as many over achieving teams as the opposite. Having one of the longest streaks in the nation in making the dance...you would expect UC to have benefited from randomness at some point.

Even if we were under seeded or our opponent was under seeded...randomness should have seen us defying odds in a good way just as often as we have in a bad way.