Initial thoughts on Caupain/Johnson verbals

[JackBauer151]

Im conflicted about how I feel about recruiting. On one hand with our success I thought we would be climbing up the latter a little bit. I did not expect to be a UK or OSU, but I thought we would be landing a few 4 star guys. On the other hand we are winning. 52 wins in the last two years and we have done that in part to a lot of 3 star guys that have played above their projection. Dixon, Bishop, SK, and LD. Our first two recruits of 2013 Caupain and Johnson definitely fit that mold. So while I see us using a formula for winning I just wonder how far you can get with that formula without adding in a few elite players. Going to the sweet 16 was awesome but after a few more years if that's all we accomplish we are going to be hungrier for more. I thought the main difference in the OSU game simply came down to talent. Two well coached teams playing their ***** off. OSU just had more talent on their roster it carried them in the last 10 min. I want us to be that more talented team. I know Mick works his ass off and I give him an A for the job he has done up to this point. I just want for him to keep getting better and recruiting is one area where I think that can happen. Although once again hard to argue with the record up till now.....

 

[PakMan]

Agree with most of what you said but Huggins wasn't ever really doing the one and done thing. He rarely had one and done players because of talent. Now one and done because of off-the-court situations is a different story.

One and done in the tournament.

 

[PakMan]

Im conflicted about how I feel about recruiting. On one hand with our success I thought we would be climbing up the latter a little bit. I did not expect to be a UK or OSU, but I thought we would be landing a few 4 star guys. On the other hand we are winning. 52 wins in the last two years and we have done that in part to a lot of 3 star guys that have played above their projection. Dixon, Bishop, SK, and LD. Our first two recruits of 2013 Caupain and Johnson definitely fit that mold. So while I see us using a formula for winning I just wonder how far you can get with that formula without adding in a few elite players. Going to the sweet 16 was awesome but after a few more years if that's all we accomplish we are going to be hungrier for more. I thought the main difference in the OSU game simply came down to talent. Two well coached teams playing their ***** off. OSU just had more talent on their roster it carried them in the last 10 min. I want us to be that more talented team. I know Mick works his ass off and I give him an A for the job he has done up to this point. I just want for him to keep getting better and recruiting is one area where I think that can happen. Although once again hard to argue with the record up till now.....

You make good points. I think with how competitive recruiting is, it takes more sustained success to catch the eye of big time recruits now than it ever has. So I do think Mick will eventually get the most talented recruits, but it will take a final four run or two, and UC once again having an identity as a program (like with Huggins we were known to be super physical and defensive-oriented).

 

[bearcat jeff]

Im conflicted about how I feel about recruiting. On one hand with our success I thought we would be climbing up the latter a little bit. I did not expect to be a UK or OSU, but I thought we would be landing a few 4 star guys. On the other hand we are winning. 52 wins in the last two years and we have done that in part to a lot of 3 star guys that have played above their projection. Dixon, Bishop, SK, and LD. Our first two recruits of 2013 Caupain and Johnson definitely fit that mold. So while I see us using a formula for winning I just wonder how far you can get with that formula without adding in a few elite players. Going to the sweet 16 was awesome but after a few more years if that's all we accomplish we are going to be hungrier for more. I thought the main difference in the OSU game simply came down to talent. Two well coached teams playing their ***** off. OSU just had more talent on their roster it carried them in the last 10 min. I want us to be that more talented team. I know Mick works his ass off and I give him an A for the job he has done up to this point. I just want for him to keep getting better and recruiting is one area where I think that can happen. Although once again hard to argue with the record up till now.....

I think what you need is more scorers. The thing that has hurt this team repeatedly against good teams is scoring droughts. Too many wide open shots are missed. You need guys that can hit a shot, get to the rim, score, or get to the line and hit ft's. This team has lacked that the past two seasons and in my mind that is the next step in the evolution of this team. Championship teams have 3 legitimate scoring threats in the line up and a scorer off the bench.

 

[cincycpaw]

One and done in the tournament.

If you're going to be a smart ass try and at least keep the smart part intact. 2 and done.

 

[Scheids21]

You make good points. I think with how competitive recruiting is, it takes more sustained success to catch the eye of big time recruits now than it ever has. So I do think Mick will eventually get the most talented recruits, but it will take a final four run or two, and UC once again having an identity as a program (like with Huggins we were known to be super physical and defensive-oriented).

Well put

 

[dp3113]

Both of them have done a great job. SK is my second favorite on the team.

Here is my issue. If we could have landed a few guys like Kemba, Scotty Hopson(bruce takes the blame) or Teague this program would be top ten in the country. I understand the coaches he is recruiting against are tough but is that really a valid excuse? Im not real fond of the term "development" program. Im not trying to bash anyone im simply stating that Mick is a great coach but I sometimes doubt his recruiting.

my 2 cents- mick previously has spent a lot of time recruiting guys like you mentioned above (especially marquis teague) as wound up on the short end. right now, 5 star kids who are not born and raised in cincinnati (yancy) or dropped by many schools due to numerous eligibility/off court concerns (lance) are not coming to UC. uc is in a loaded conference and are not consider an "it" school yet compared to their peers like UofL, Cuse, Gtown, etc- and the time required to recruit these guys- especially considering mick has to work THAT much harder than pitino, boeheim to compete for a 5 star player, is producing little to no return on the investment.

so, as it currently stands- mick calls uc a "player development" program and likes to say he is modeling uc's approach after pitt's. i.e. instead of going for the best talent, go for the best fits to his system. over time, once he can establish uc as a power in the big east, you will start to see higher level talent coming to uc.

 

[Gotcha23]

my 2 cents- mick previously has spent a lot of time recruiting guys like you mentioned above (especially marquis teague) as wound up on the short end. right now, 5 star kids who are not born and raised in cincinnati (yancy) or dropped by many schools due to numerous eligibility/off court concerns (lance) are not coming to UC. uc is in a loaded conference and are not consider an "it" school yet compared to their peers like UofL, Cuse, Gtown, etc- and the time required to recruit these guys- especially considering mick has to work THAT much harder than pitino, boeheim to compete for a 5 star player, is producing little to no return on the investment.

so, as it currently stands- mick calls uc a "player development" program and likes to say he is modeling uc's approach after pitt's. i.e. instead of going for the best talent, go for the best fits to his system. over time, once he can establish uc as a power in the big east, you will start to see higher level talent coming to uc.

Yea I agree with that. I think the biggest reason for my views on Mick's recruiting classes was the OSU game in the tourney. I was estatic we made the sweet sixteen but we looked soooo outmatched. We made a few great runs but the talent level was so different. I understand OSU recruits top kids but if we want to advance we must as well. I was hoping for a monster class. I mean no offense to Caupain or Johnson. They seem like solid ball players. I just want this team to have a chance against the UK's, UNC's, OSU's in the tourney...

 

[Gnomey]

Yea I agree with that. I think the biggest reason for my views on Mick's recruiting classes was the OSU game in the tourney. I was estatic we made the sweet sixteen but we looked soooo outmatched. We made a few great runs but the talent level was so different. I understand OSU recruits top kids but if we want to advance we must as well. I was hoping for a monster class. I mean no offense to Caupain or Johnson. They seem like solid ball players. I just want this team to have a chance against the UK's, UNC's, OSU's in the tourney...

I don't believe that was a talent issue per se...
We put Yancy on an island and the only help we could give him, was Cheikh who has pin ball flippers for hands and Justin Jackson. You can't beat better teams like that.
I don't think our back court is untalented, I just don't think they can play out of position. Also, Cashmere Wright can't be our only true point guard.
That's irritating. The offense when Dion ran it, was completely disjointed.

Let 1's be 1's, 2's be 2's, 3's be 3's, 4's be 4's ...

 

[Gotcha23]

I don't believe that was a talent issue per se...
We put Yancy on an island and the only help we could give him, was Cheikh who has pin ball flippers for hands and Justin Jackson. You can't beat better teams like that.
I don't think our back court is untalented, I just don't think they can play out of position. Also, Cashmere Wright can't be our only true point guard.
That's irritating. The offense when Dion ran it, was completely disjointed.

Let 1's be 1's, 2's be 2's, 3's be 3's, 4's be 4's ...

You don't think TALENT was the issue?

Sullinger,Thomas,Buford,Craft..Are you honestly saying the gameplan was the reason we lost? We were totally outmatched..

 

[dp3113]

You don't think TALENT was the issue?

Sullinger,Thomas,Buford,Craft..Are you honestly saying the gameplan was the reason we lost? We were totally outmatched..

there was a definite talent discrepancy. uc had no player who was capable of doing what deshaun thomas could do, nor a player who could guard him. also, there was a clear skill differential between sullinger and gates.

 

[Gnomey]

You don't think TALENT was the issue?

Sullinger,Thomas,Buford,Craft..Are you honestly saying the gameplan was the reason we lost? We were totally outmatched..

Gameplan? No. Lack of position players.
We had parker play the 4 at times last year, that stuff is embarrassing. He's a 2 guard.
Buford had little to do with them winning. What I saw, were two forwards snatching boards at will and us expect Yancy to fend them off himself. That can't happen. We also can't take stupid shots like Dixon did and make bad decisions like SK did. We need someone to handle the ball when Cashmere Wright is out, when he sat down is when we lost the lead.
For a Big East team, the roster was lacking. We had no 3's. We had one power forward, who clearly wasn't ready yet in Justin Jackson.
The front court is lacking, the point is one guy. You need more than one point guard to be competitive.
We have a ton of combo guards, I think it's a waste of schollies. Basketball is a team sport, it runs on team dynamics. You need enough guys to at least play the right positions. We didn't do that.


Last years team, was entirely too guard oriented.

 

[Gotcha23]

Gameplan? No. Lack of position players.
We had parker play the 4 at times last year, that stuff is embarrassing. He's a 2 guard.
Buford had little to do with them winning. What I saw, were two forwards snatching boards at will and us expect Yancy to fend them off himself. That can't happen. We also can't take stupid shots like Dixon did and make bad decisions like SK did. We need someone to handle the ball when Cashmere Wright is out, when he sat down is when we lost the lead.
For a Big East team, the roster was lacking. We had no 3's. We had one power forward, who clearly wasn't ready yet in Justin Jackson.
The front court is lacking, the point is one guy. You need more than one point guard to be competitive.
We have a ton of combo guards, I think it's a waste of schollies. Basketball is a team sport, it runs on team dynamics. You need enough guys to at least play the right positions. We didn't do that.


Last years team, was entirely too guard oriented.

Am I missing something? How is this not talent then? We had Justin Jackson playing the four but he wasn't good enough to compete yet. Cheik and Yancy could have both played at the same time but Cheik wasn't good enough.. I'm not sure I understand this.

 

[Gnomey]

Am I missing something? How is this not talent then? We had Justin Jackson playing the four but he wasn't good enough to compete yet. Cheik and Yancy could have both played at the same time but Cheik wasn't good enough.. I'm not sure I understand this.

You have talent, just not the RIGHT talent.
It's heavily stacked toward the backcourt.
Needed to be more balanced. Part of that, was taking a Juco and a chance on Kelvin Gaines.
Position to position, I don't think it was the big a talent difference.
Wright could hang, in fact, he put up 18.
The wings though, were undersized, Sullinger and Thomas ate them up. Which left Yancy exposed. Big as he was, he can't stop them from crashing the board all by himself.

I just don't get, why we needed Dixon, SK, Parker, Davis, Sanders, Guyn...
6 players, fit to play the same position.

 

[champ009kd]

Not sure if anyone has touched on this topic, but the big east is going to be drastically different when these two guys step on campus. It would be foolish to expect anything less than conference championships, and high seeds in the NCAA tourney as a result. Here's to Top 25 recruiting classes and Sweet 16's (chugs coffee)

 

[Gotcha23]

You have talent, just not the RIGHT talent.
It's heavily stacked toward the backcourt.
Needed to be more balanced. Part of that, was taking a Juco and a chance on Kelvin Gaines.
Position to position, I don't think it was the big a talent difference.
Wright could hang, in fact, he put up 18.
The wings though, were undersized, Sullinger and Thomas ate them up. Which left Yancy exposed. Big as he was, he can't stop them from crashing the board all by himself.

I just don't get, why we needed Dixon, SK, Parker, Davis, Sanders, Guyn...
6 players, fit to play the same position.

Yea I see what you're saying and you are correct. I was simply saying that Mick recruited 1. Cash, 2. SK, 3. Parker, 4. Jackson, 5. Gates. We had the pieces we just couldnt match up because they weren't skilled enough. Parker is a legit 3 man and JJ a 4 man. Length was an issue but they were simply better.

 

[dp3113]

You have talent, just not the RIGHT talent.
It's heavily stacked toward the backcourt.
Needed to be more balanced. Part of that, was taking a Juco and a chance on Kelvin Gaines.
Position to position, I don't think it was the big a talent difference.
Wright could hang, in fact, he put up 18.
The wings though, were undersized, Sullinger and Thomas ate them up. Which left Yancy exposed. Big as he was, he can't stop them from crashing the board all by himself.

I just don't get, why we needed Dixon, SK, Parker, Davis, Sanders, Guyn...
6 players, fit to play the same position.

recruiting big men is not easy at all, especially considering uc's current role in the middle tier of the big east hierarchy. however, i think mick's biggest shortcoming clearly has been that he never over-recruited yancy gates. by that, he never brought in anyone that was able to push him for minutes, light a fire under him, be a capable reserve that could actually conceivably score a basket on the block, and/or be ready to step in when he left.

big men are not as necessary any more in college hoops- i.e. you don't need 2 bona fide bigs at the 4 and 5 to win. however, we are entering this season starting cheikh and probably jackson and really don't have much choice. that is not a good situation to be in when you have the guards that could potentially lead you to an elite 8/final four.

we have had to turn to jucos for big men which is not a good look. lets face it- good big men are not making it to the juco route these days. yes, you can use riccardo ratline as an example to question this, but that is 1 player amongst how many bigs in college basketball? the % just doesn't support it. if you are good and you are a big man, you are going to college or going to prep school and being made eligible by any means necessary. moral of the story is- the program needs to start finding a way to get high school bigs in the system who are not 5 year projects ala gaines (who may never even pan out). if we are a "player development program" as mick says, bringing jucos in is incompatible to the mission. they usually need 1 year to get acclimated, and then at that point they have a year left and very minimal time to develop. having a juco as a reserve to fill out the scholarship situation is one thing, but depending on them to be starters right now is not a good position to be in.

with that said, i think cronin absolutely knows what he is doing in terms of the personnel he is brining in. caupain and johnson are both guys who attack the rim. this team needs players who can get easy buckets- something that has been a struggle throughout mick's tenure here. you can always teach people to shoot better...you can't nearly as effectively teach them the mentality to attack the rim. our guards will be fine. we have just come up short recruiting bigs and that needs to get turned around going forward so uc can take the next step as a program.

 

[Gnomey]

recruiting big men is not easy at all, especially considering uc's current role in the middle tier of the big east hierarchy. however, i think mick's biggest shortcoming clearly has been that he never over-recruited yancy gates. by that, he never brought in anyone that was able to push him for minutes, light a fire under him, be a capable reserve that could actually conceivably score a basket on the block, and/or be ready to step in when he left.

I agree, to an extent. I can't complain about Yancy's effort the past 1.5 seasons, but sure, he probably could have progressed a lot quicker.
Recruiting though, mid majors are doing better at getting bigs than he is. I'm kind of annoyed with it. It's hard, but this is the highest tier of college basketball. Produce or step.

big men are not as necessary any more in college hoops- i.e. you don't need 2 bona fide bigs at the 4 and 5 to win. however, we are entering this season starting cheikh and probably jackson and really don't have much choice.
that is not a good situation to be in when you have the guards that could potentially lead you to an elite 8/final four.

I think you need guys who can rebound, box out, keep the opposing offense in check. You don't have to have a pure 5, but you need some size.

we have had to turn to jucos for big men which is not a good look. lets face it- good big men are not making it to the juco route these days. yes, you can use riccardo ratline as an example to question this, but that is 1 player amongst how many bigs in college basketball? the % just doesn't support it. if you are good and you are a big man, you are going to college or going to prep school and being made eligible by any means necessary. moral of the story is- the program needs to start finding a way to get high school bigs in the system who are not 5 year projects ala gaines (who may never even pan out). if we are a "player development program" as mick says, bringing jucos in is incompatible to the mission. they usually need 1 year to get acclimated, and then at that point they have a year left and very minimal time to develop. having a juco as a reserve to fill out the scholarship situation is one thing, but depending on them to be starters right now is not a good position to be in.

Jucos aren't what they used to be, no doubt.
We backed off of Mitchell and Scott though, either of those guys would have been helpful.
It's not just the bigs, I'm kind of sick of tweener guard/forwards in general. If you're 6'3 and you're not Dwayne Wade, I don't want you on the wing. I just feel like we're in an age, where athletes are taller and more athletic.

with that said, i think cronin absolutely knows what he is doing in terms of the personnel he is brining in. caupain and johnson are both guys who attack the rim. this team needs players who can get easy buckets- something that has been a struggle throughout mick's tenure here. you can always teach people to shoot better...you can't nearly as effectively teach them the mentality to attack the rim. our guards will be fine. we have just come up short recruiting bigs and that needs to get turned around going forward so uc can take the next step as a program.

But see, this I don't agree with.
These two, likely aren't going to be good point guards at this level. We could have brought in a true point guard with the 2011-2012 class and we wouldn't be looking at Davis/Guyn + two freshmen who are sg's, trying to run the show. Which I'm not looking forward to. To me, this is subpar recruiting, because you're going to have Guyn, Davis, Caupain, Johnson, SK, all 2 guards! We only get so many schollies. We need wings who aren't dwarfs, bigs who aren't boney and we need real ball handlers.
I know, Cronin wants to be all run and gun, but a press full of short little people aint scaring the likes of the better teams in college basketball. This isn't the same game it was in the 90s.


I don't know, it could end up working. I just really wish to hell, we still had Ellis.