State of the team

[TheShoeFits]

Ehhhh. I agree with everything else, but JJ was better than Ellis IMO. Really the only thing I think Ellis is better at is free throws. Scoring, rebounds, blocks, steals, fewer TOs, etc. favor JJ.

That said, Ellis has another year, so he could certainly leap him next year.

Octavius Ellis (30Games)
SEASON MIN PPG FG% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK PF STL TO

14-15 28.8 9.7 .571 2.8-3.9 .716 7.1 1.4 2.2 2.6 0.8 2.2

Justin Jackson (34 Games)
SEASON MIN PPG FG% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK PF STL TO

13-14 27.7 11.1 .532 1.7-3.7 .460 7.5 0.9 2.9 3.05 1.6 2.0

Very similar numbers in my opinion. I personally prefer Ellis. Don't get me wrong, JJ is one of my all time favorite players. I appreciate his hard work and he seemed to have some kind of electricity on the court that his teammates and fans fed off of.

I like Ellis more because he can step out and hit a jump shot and Justin always seemed to commit an awful foul during crucial parts of the game.

 

[L-T]

The great programs don't use the "Young" excuse. The great programs just reload every year. The great programs are "never" happy just making the dance. The great programs expect to win in the dance.

I still consider us a great program, and expect what a great program should expect.

1) Top 25 recruiting classes
2) Top 25 team
2) Win our share of regular season & conf. tournament championships
3) Make the NCAA every year
4) Win in the NCAA every year.

The 50s and 60s established us as one of the truly great programs. After Jucker left, we stagnated under Tay Baker, but Gale Catlet came along and elevated us once again. Unfortunately, he put us on probation and caused a prolonged slide in the 80s. The 90s and early 2000s brought us back to prominence and we achieved the 5 things I laid out above. Our NCAA record during that period was 20-14. That kind of performance is what I expect as a fan....nothing less.

This season, we've not been ranked a single time. We didn't win the regular season championship in a weak league. Our recruiting class was ranked in the 30s. We'll make the dance, but will be favored to lose in the first round. I'm not happy with this season, but it's not over and who knows, this team might still have some pleasant surprises in store for us. With the adversity we've encountered, the expectations might be expected to be somewhat lower. I'll take it, but from here on out, things need to change and those 5 things above need to becaome the norm. We have what appears to be a strong foundation in place to start to soar, and soaring is what must occur now! I agree with some of the lofty expectations laid out above.

I'm not happy with the time it took us to get to this point, but it appears that we're finally here and ready to take off, so let's see what happens. Hopefully, it's a fun ride!

 

[ucdave]

Octavius Ellis (30Games)
SEASON MIN PPG FG% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK PF STL TO

14-15 28.8 9.7 .571 2.8-3.9 .716 7.1 1.4 2.2 2.6 0.8 2.2

Justin Jackson (34 Games)
SEASON MIN PPG FG% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST BLK PF STL TO

13-14 27.7 11.1 .532 1.7-3.7 .460 7.5 0.9 2.9 3.05 1.6 2.0

Very similar numbers in my opinion. I personally prefer Ellis. Don't get me wrong, JJ is one of my all time favorite players. I appreciate his hard work and he seemed to have some kind of electricity on the court that his teammates and fans fed off of.

I like Ellis more because he can step out and hit a jump shot and Justin always seemed to commit an awful foul during crucial parts of the game.

You need to also remember that this comparison is between JJ as a Senior and OE as a Junior. If you compare Junior seasons, I don't think it's even close. JJ made a huge jump from Junior to Senior season.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Cronin is not present at games or practices (drills), not even close to 24/7.

Clark is not 6'10". If JL embraced role, no telling how good he could have been. KJ was mini cobb in some big wins last year. Bishop also much more consistent and apparently healthier last year.

Bottom line, we lost a lot more than just SK. We lost two 4 year seniors who had leadership and played majority of career in BEast and coach of year for majority of season.

Bishop?

 

[jacobkdoyle]

We need to get back to the 68-72 ppg average next year imo if we're going to be elite. We will have a lot of mouths to feed. I remember Jeff posting how many shots per player he'd like to see a few weeks ago. We have to have more possessions to get more guys their shots. We all talk about how good Clark will be, but he's pretty much statistically maxed out for a team that only scores 62 ppg. He'll only realize his potential if we play at a higher level offensively. This shouldn't be a problem next year with the experience we gained this year (and this isn't an agenda to change Cincinnati basketball, it isn't me thinking it is lunchtime at the Y, and it isn't me thinking we don't need to run any offense). When we made the Sweet 16, we had 4 guys averaging double figures and Parker was over 9. This team has 0 double figure scorers and you can only get so far with that. The big jump next year has to come offensively, or else we'll still be in jeopardy of racking up the bad losses that we've seen this year. I mean, even last year we were at 68 ppg. So if this team is indeed more talented overall, they need to show it on the scoreboard to reach the next level.

 

[JackBauer151]

The great programs don't use the "Young" excuse. The great programs just reload every year. The great programs are "never" happy just making the dance. The great programs expect to win in the dance.

I still consider us a great program, and expect what a great program should expect.

1) Top 25 recruiting classes
2) Top 25 team
2) Win our share of regular season & conf. tournament championships
3) Make the NCAA every year
4) Win in the NCAA every year.

The 50s and 60s established us as one of the truly great programs. After Jucker left, we stagnated under Tay Baker, but Gale Catlet came along and elevated us once again. Unfortunately, he put us on probation and caused a prolonged slide in the 80s. The 90s and early 2000s brought us back to prominence and we achieved the 5 things I laid out above. Our NCAA record during that period was 20-14. That kind of performance is what I expect as a fan....nothing less.

This season, we've not been ranked a single time. We didn't win the regular season championship in a weak league. Our recruiting class was ranked in the 30s. We'll make the dance, but will be favored to lose in the first round. I'm not happy with this season, but it's not over and who knows, this team might still have some pleasant surprises in store for us. With the adversity we've encountered, the expectations might be expected to be somewhat lower. I'll take it, but from here on out, things need to change and those 5 things above need to becaome the norm. We have what appears to be a strong foundation in place to start to soar, and soaring is what must occur now! I agree with some of the lofty expectations laid out above.

I'm not happy with the time it took us to get to this point, but it appears that we're finally here and ready to take off, so let's see what happens. Hopefully, it's a fun ride!

I think the recruiting is the most pressing issue. Being in the top 25 is the norm for us. Last 5 years before this one. Going to tournaments is the norm. This will be 5 straight. I think as long as we are in this conference we will be considered one of the favorites to win the regular season and tournaments. Won last year and looking at this year even with this inexperienced team without it's head coach should have won it. ECU and Tulane just make me sick. I think your first point and your last point are directly correlated. Cant win in the tourney if you dont have big time talent. We just simply havent had that under Mick. SK was a great college player but still the only cup of coffee he is getting is the D league. Mick has done a tremendous job at being one of the best in the business about controlling the things he can control. He has built a culture of winning. He recruited players that he could win in the regular season with even if they werent blue chip guys. Program has stayed clean and OOC schedule has helped with visibility. He has built a consistent top 25 program. Should be praised for that given the limitations of the program. (Budget, Conference, Facilities, Plane, ect...) However I agree that we will be nothing more than just a solid program if the recruiting is not improved. The depressing thing for me is Im not sure I see it changing all that much in the near future. LT you and I have argued on this point many times. You see it more of a Mick problem. I see it more as an administration problem. Reality probably lies somewhere in the middle. Im ecstatic with the job Mick has done but there is another level maybe two that this program could jump. I just dont know how UC does that. They are winning at a high clip, making the tourney, playing on national TV, ranking in the top 25, graduating players, have first team all americans, winning their conference, coach was coach of the year, have new apparel deal, and have a great tradition. With all that it still feels like an uphill battle in recruiting and at the end of the day when it comes to beating the top teams in the country you have to have really good players. Maybe I'm being a little too negative about what we can accomplish as status quo. I'm just not sure what else we can do right now to take us to the next level outside of having some under the radar guys turn into really good players and making an unexpected deep run. Dont like those odds.

 

[cincrulz11]

When we made the Sweet 16, we had 4 guys averaging double figures and Parker was over 9. This team has 0 double figure scorers and you can only get so far with that.

Part of the problem is college basketball in general is slowing way down in tempo. That 2012 team ranked 273 in tempo that year but had 65 possessions or more in 21 games. This year we've gotten to 65 5 times.


This entire conference plays slow down ball. Only 2 teams rank in the top 150. 5 rank 240 or below.


With the continued trend of fewer and fewer possessions each year, it's gonna take some change in the game in general to get those numbers back up.



No matter what pace they play, the efficiency must go up. That 2012 team ranked 61 in offensive Adj Efficiency, next year should be able to beat that and get into the top 40 I think.

 

[#BearcatNation]

I agree with most of what's being said. In summary, we're currently a "good" program, but we all want to get back to being "great." We can agree on that.

One thing I'd like to say though: Can we cut the crap about how amazing we were in the '50s and '60s? That literally has nothing to do with today. Nothing. I'll give you the Huggins years as recent success that we're striving to get back towards, because that's still relatively fresh, but no programs tout success from 50+ years ago. Yes, that era is what built the program, but a heck of a lot of programs used to be stellar and are now literally nothing. We still compete year in, year out. You know who else won titles in the '50s and '60s? CCNY, La Salle, San Francisco, Loyola Chicago, and Texas Western. Where are they now? After how abysmal we were in the '80s, it's a miracle that we've made 18 of the last 23 NCAA tourneys.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. We could certainly be a better program right now, but we also could be a lot worse. We've had a lot of ups and downs, as every program has, other than say UK, Duke, Kansas, and UNC. Just because we were dominant in the '50s-'60s never meant we were going to be stellar forever.

 

[cincrulz11]

No matter what pace they play, the efficiency must go up. That 2012 team ranked 61 in offensive Adj Efficiency, next year should be able to beat that and get into the top 40 I think.

And to quote myself here, but what I'm talking about on the extreme side is a team like Wisconsin. They have a slower adjusted tempo than we do this year but they score 71.7 ppg. Virginia runs an even slower tempo game than that and they average 66 ppg.


A slight uptick in tempo with a nice jump in efficiency and I think the team will be right where you'd like to see it in terms of ppg.

 

[L-T]

The bottom line absolutely is recruiting. Fix that and everything will fall into place nicely.....in my opinion. Stephenson was only here for a cup of coffee, and we really only got him by default when many programs dropped off of him. It doesn't look good when your program has nobody playing in the NBA. If I was recruiting against Mick, I would be all over that one fact. I also would be all over the slow-down, make your eyeballs bleed offense we run. I think the coaches are starting to realize that one. They seem to be starting to speed things up a little more.

I hesitate to speak about the past, but our facilities and budget in the 90s and 2000s wasn't any good either, but we got MacDonalds All-Americans, JUCO All Americans, Top 20 recruiting calsses, etc. Since that time, we built varsity village, which supposedly elevated a lot of our facilities to elite level (i.e. weight room, practice facilities, medical facilities, offices, video rooms, etc.), so from that respect, we're a lot better than we were. How did Brad Stevens get final 4 talent to Butler. How has Shaka Smart done it at VCU? Archie Miller is making things happen at Dayton. Just a few examples, but we seem to focus on the reasons why we "can't" accomplish things rather than focusing on the reason why we "should" accomplish things. We have a lot of those as well. Can we recruit against Duke, Kentucky, N. Carolina annually? No, but there's no reason why we shouldn't have 2 or 3 Top 10 or 15 recruiting classes out of 10 seasons.

 

[cincrulz11]

There are just so many less McD all american type players available these days with the Kentucky's of the world bringing in 5 every season. It's just a different landscape.


If Mick continues to pull in the Caupain and Clark's of the world, this program is going to be extremely strong. 4 year guys that can produce from day 1. You grab 1 of those per year and watch out.

 

[L-T]

I agree with most of what's being said. In summary, we're currently a "good" program, but we all want to get back to being "great." We can agree on that.

One thing I'd like to say though: Can we cut the crap about how amazing we were in the '50s and '60s? That literally has nothing to do with today. Nothing. I'll give you the Huggins years as recent success that we're striving to get back towards, because that's still relatively fresh, but no programs tout success from 50+ years ago. Yes, that era is what built the program, but a heck of a lot of programs used to be stellar and are now literally nothing. We still compete year in, year out. You know who else won titles in the '50s and '60s? CCNY, La Salle, San Francisco, Loyola Chicago, and Texas Western. Where are they now? After how abysmal we were in the '80s, it's a miracle that we've made 18 of the last 23 NCAA tourneys.

I guess it depends on how you look at it. We could certainly be a better program right now, but we also could be a lot worse. We've had a lot of ups and downs, as every program has, other than say UK, Duke, Kansas, and UNC. Just because we were dominant in the '50s-'60s never meant we were going to be stellar forever.

Each and every year, there are rankings of the greatest college basketball programs of all times. We are always in every Top 20 ranking of the greatest college basketball programs. We're even in the top 10 of some. Those 50s and 60s are a huge reason why we are there. Again, it's a topic that is discussed every year. It's the reason why the banners in the Shoe are the biggest, and have their own individual lights shining on them. When the university takes those big-ass banners down, and puts those National Championships on small banners down in the lower corner, then I'll stop talking about them. You should ask all the TV networks why they have to put their cameras on Oscar Robertson every single game when we're televised. Please ask them if they can please cut the crap. Oscar has absolutely nothing to do with today. That is where you are dead wrong. That tradition is what defines us even today. It is why we are still viewed as one of the great programs of all time, and I for one will hold onto that tradition and the expectations that come with it until I die.

 

[Bearcat22]

Each and every year, there are rankings of the greatest college basketball programs of all times. We are always in every Top 20 ranking of the greatest college basketball programs. We're even in the top 10 of some. Those 50s and 60s are a huge reason why we are there. Again, it's a topic that is discussed every year. It's the reason why the banners in the Shoe are the biggest, and have their own individual lights shining on them. When the university takes those big-ass banners down, and puts those National Championships on small banners down in the lower corner, then I'll stop talking about them. You should ask all the TV networks why they have to put their cameras on Oscar Robertson every single game when we're televised. Please ask them if they can please cut the crap. Oscar has absolutely nothing to do with today. That is where you are dead wrong. That tradition is what defines us even today. It is why we are still viewed as one of the great programs of all time, and I for one will hold onto that tradition and the expectations that come with it until I die.

I agree with you 100%. We should embrace that history and tradition. It's something to aspire to and try to build on - not something to ignore.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Part of the problem is college basketball in general is slowing way down in tempo. That 2012 team ranked 273 in tempo that year but had 65 possessions or more in 21 games. This year we've gotten to 65 5 times.


This entire conference plays slow down ball. Only 2 teams rank in the top 150. 5 rank 240 or below.


With the continued trend of fewer and fewer possessions each year, it's gonna take some change in the game in general to get those numbers back up.



No matter what pace they play, the efficiency must go up. That 2012 team ranked 61 in offensive Adj Efficiency, next year should be able to beat that and get into the top 40 I think.

I definitely agree about college basketball in general. I'd like to see a 30 second shot clock (I think this is a quicker fix), but also the 3 pt line to be moved to 1 foot inside the NBA line instead of 3. Teams are too dependent on making 3s and moving it back would ensure that only the more capable players are routinely taking them. It would also make the zone much less effective. The pack it in style tends to take a lot of time to work against, and it also doesn't force many turnovers. Moving the 3 pt line back would add an extra 2 feet all around that the defense has to cover. That'd free up more space for shooters and also rolling big guys setting screens that much farther out. I want the mid-range jump shot to become relevant in the sport again.
I also think the officiating is bad. I used to be a ref so I try not to bash it BC its tough, and I can't imagine what doing college would be like. But imo they've slippery-sloped their way into a "play on" style over the years. I see so many blocking fouls every game that go uncalled. The refs pretty much let them play on if the man with the ball doesn't turn it over, or lose his dribble on a bump. You have to start calling that stuff. I know fans don't want to see a whistle every 2 seconds, but we might have to bite the bullet on that for a few years for the good of the sport in the long run. Bc fans also don't like seeing games in the 40s and 50s all the time.

 

[#BearcatNation]

I agree with you 100%. We should embrace that history and tradition. It's something to aspire to and try to build on - not something to ignore.

Look, I'm not saying ignore it. "Cut the crap" might have been a little harsh, but you can't expect results from over 50 years ago to define what kind of present program you have. Not how it works. I love that we have those banners and I love our storied history. Oscar is an icon. All that said, times are extremely different. Focus on the present and control the things we can. Recruits want to hear about our active NCAA tournament streak, rather than teams their dad wasn't even alive for.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

The bottom line absolutely is recruiting. Fix that and everything will fall into place nicely.....in my opinion. Stephenson was only here for a cup of coffee, and we really only got him by default when many programs dropped off of him. It doesn't look good when your program has nobody playing in the NBA. If I was recruiting against Mick, I would be all over that one fact. I also would be all over the slow-down, make your eyeballs bleed offense we run. I think the coaches are starting to realize that one. They seem to be starting to speed things up a little more.

I hesitate to speak about the past, but our facilities and budget in the 90s and 2000s wasn't any good either, but we got MacDonalds All-Americans, JUCO All Americans, Top 20 recruiting calsses, etc. Since that time, we built varsity village, which supposedly elevated a lot of our facilities to elite level (i.e. weight room, practice facilities, medical facilities, offices, video rooms, etc.), so from that respect, we're a lot better than we were. How did Brad Stevens get final 4 talent to Butler. How has Shaka Smart done it at VCU? Archie Miller is making things happen at Dayton. Just a few examples, but we seem to focus on the reasons why we "can't" accomplish things rather than focusing on the reason why we "should" accomplish things. We have a lot of those as well. Can we recruit against Duke, Kentucky, N. Carolina annually? No, but there's no reason why we shouldn't have 2 or 3 Top 10 or 15 recruiting classes out of 10 seasons.

I personally think our recruiting has been alright. We have good players. And next year when we know for sure how to use them all, I'm expecting a 27-4 type regular season with a top 3 NCAA seed. We CANNOT whiff on the 2016 class though like we did in 2011. That would be unacceptable to me.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Look, I'm not saying ignore it. "Cut the crap" might have been a little harsh, but you can't expect results from over 50 years ago to define what kind of present program you have. Not how it works. I love that we have those banners and I love our storied history. Oscar is an icon. All that said, times are extremely different. Focus on the present and control the things we can. Recruits want to hear about our active NCAA tournament streak, rather than teams their dad wasn't even alive for.

I think you're way off here. Recruits want to legitimately know they're going to a Top 20 program all time. That's a huge part of our sales pitch.

 

[#BearcatNation]

I think you're way off here. Recruits want to legitimately know they're going to a Top 20 program all time. That's a huge part of our sales pitch.

Fair enough. I could be wrong. I think the boasting from anything '90s to now with recruits gets their attention, as they were alive for it, but as great as the Big O was, none of these kids ever saw him. Plus, since he wasn't really on big-name teams winning rings, a lot of kids probably don't even know how good he actually was. I think you'd need to pull up his stats to prove it. Which sounds insanely sad to us, since in our eyes, he's a god (rightfully so).

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Fair enough. I could be wrong. I think the boasting from anything '90s to now with recruits gets their attention, as they were alive for it, but as great as the Big O was, none of these kids ever saw him. Plus, since he wasn't really on big-name teams winning rings, a lot of kids probably don't even know how good he actually was. I think you'd need to pull up his stats to prove it. Which sounds insanely sad to us, since in our eyes, he's a god (rightfully so).

The Big O is a living legend. His name still comes up all the time in the basketball world. I know all the recruits watch NBA and see what Westbrook is doing. When you watch OKC the announcers bring up every game that in February, Russell had 30 PPG 10 APG 9 RPG. He is the 2nd person ever to do that in a month. The other is Oscar, and he did it 12 times. His name still carries a TON of weight and his accomplishments are brought up regularly. They showed him with Bill Russell at the All-Star festivities just this year too.

 

[JackBauer151]

Fair enough. I could be wrong. I think the boasting from anything '90s to now with recruits gets their attention, as they were alive for it, but as great as the Big O was, none of these kids ever saw him. Plus, since he wasn't really on big-name teams winning rings, a lot of kids probably don't even know how good he actually was. I think you'd need to pull up his stats to prove it. Which sounds insanely sad to us, since in our eyes, he's a god (rightfully so).

Tradition is definitely important regardless of how long ago it was. It's much better to talk about having national championships and final 4's than to not be able to talk about that. However your point is still valid on some levels. First off if we are going to land high major kids the schools we are recruiting against will have similar traditions to point to as well. Kids today care about being on TV, going to the tournament, playing time, how many kids the program has sent to the NBA, style of play, facilities, geography, and many other specialized areas. If you dont have those things your tradition wont mean much especially if its over 50 years ago. Tradition we have. It's the other things that concern me going forward. We have sent one player to the NBA in Mick's tenure. Our arena and locker rooms are crap. We are not in a P5 conference. Just fixing those three things right there would have a much higher impact on recruiting than program tradition in my opinion.