State of the team

[L-T]

First of all. This is Cincinnati. There is a basic expectation that we make the tournament every year. In my mind, we have 19 straight trips to the NCAA. Once Mick got us past the Zimpher-induced mess, we're right back where we belong. Cancel out Mick's first four years. It's 19 straight. That being said, those that post that there was an expectation this year that we wouldn't make the tournament, so that they can now proclaim that we've over-achieved....well, that is just laughable. I get accused of minimizing achievements. Calling this year an over-achievement is an example of maximizing achievements.

As a business manager, I have one performance measurable where the absolute best I can do is 100%. For 5 years in a row, I have hit 100%. Guess what, when I sit down at the beginning of the year now to go over my objectives for the coming year, my objective on this one measurable is now 100%. In the performance review, there are three possible ratings....exceeded objectives, met objectives, and did not meet objectives. Obviously, on this one objective, there is no possibility that I can exceed the objective, because 100% is the best possible outcome. I complained to my bosses about giving me an objective that I can't exceed, but to no avail. It's now an expectation for me to be perfect. This is the way I see it with making the NCAA. At Cincinnati, it's an expectation. You get zero kudos for doing that. And, nobody arbitrarily sets the bar somewhere below that expectation, so that we can claim an over-achievement.

We have a great program with a tremendous tradition. As Jacob said, if we sit back and expect something less and continue to throw out all the excuses why we can't achieve more, we'll be locked in mediocrity forever. Who in their right mind would have ever believed that the University of Cincinnati would ever play in a BCS Bowl game, much less two in a row. From the toilet bowl of college football, we rose from total obscurity to the mountaintop, because someone had the foresight to realize that Rick Minter would not get us to the next level....a decision I was 100% against....but I was wrong! Now we're sitting here making excuses why we can't compete in basketball. It's laughable. We can compete. We've proven it and many other programs with far less than the blue-blood programs have proven it as well. My standards are high, and I make no apologies for it. I'm just sorry that so many in our fanbase are satisfied with far less.

 

[JackBauer151]

To be fair, the thread is called "State of the Program" in a year where we have 9 losses. Not everyone considers that overachieving, especially when you consider the teams we've lost to. I do agree that we've looked great lately. I'm going to focus on the rest of thus season, next season, and 2016 recruiting. Those are the things that are important to me in the foreseeable future.

This is the kind of stuff I dont understand. You point to 9 losses and say not everyone considers this overachieving. It's perfectly fine to have high standards for a program but some of us just ask for a little perspective. A dose of reality if you will. If I told you about a college basketball team before the season and told you that they would be: losing 62% of their offense, 61% of their rebounding, lost 4 of their 5 starters one of whom was a first team all american, would have 7 new players, lose 4 players at different times from the roster in the season, lose their head coach to a brain injury and have the toughest non conference schedule the program has had in years. What would have your expectations been? 22-9 after all of that. Im sorry but that is a remarkable achievement. Have went way beyond what I expected. In a rebuilding year they somehow put it together and got to the tourney and possibly are even peeking at the right time. It's about having a balance of wanting the program to grow and also appreciating what it has and is accomplishing. That is what Jeff, myself, and other posters have a problem with at times. The criticism at times lacks perspective. We've been to count them two sweet 16s since 1996 as NTS pointed out. We are not Kentcuky. We are not Duke. We are not Kansas. We never have had the consistency of those blue chipers. I would love for Cincy basketball to get as close as possible. But to just say I expect them to be that without looking at all the circumstances surrounding the program is short sighted. The fact of the matter is we have survived the death penalty and have rebuilt ourselves to be in the top 10th percentile of the sport. There is room to grow no doubt about it but there is a lot to be celebrated as well.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

This is the kind of stuff I dont understand. You point to 9 losses and say not everyone considers this overachieving. It's perfectly fine to have high standards for a program but some of us just ask for a little perspective. A dose of reality if you will. If I told you about a college basketball team before the season and told you that they would be: losing 62% of their offense, 61% of their rebounding, lost 4 of their 5 starters one of whom was a first team all american, would have 7 new players, lose 4 players at different times from the roster in the season, lose their head coach to a brain injury and have the toughest non conference schedule the program has had in years. What would have your expectations been? 22-9 after all of that. Im sorry but that is a remarkable achievement. Have went way beyond what I expected. In a rebuilding year they somehow put it together and got to the tourney and possibly are even peeking at the right time. It's about having a balance of wanting the program to grow and also appreciating what it has and is accomplishing. That is what Jeff, myself, and other posters have a problem with at times. The criticism at times lacks perspective. We've been to count them two sweet 16s since 1996 as NTS pointed out. We are not Kentcuky. We are not Duke. We are not Kansas. We never have had the consistency of those blue chipers. I would love for Cincy basketball to get as close as possible. But to just say I expect them to be that without looking at all the circumstances surrounding the program is short sighted. The fact of the matter is we have survived the death penalty and have rebuilt ourselves to be in the top 10th percentile of the sport. There is room to grow no doubt about it but there is a lot to be celebrated as well.

Very nicely put Jack.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

This is the kind of stuff I dont understand. You point to 9 losses and say not everyone considers this overachieving. It's perfectly fine to have high standards for a program but some of us just ask for a little perspective. A dose of reality if you will. If I told you about a college basketball team before the season and told you that they would be: losing 62% of their offense, 61% of their rebounding, lost 4 of their 5 starters one of whom was a first team all american, would have 7 new players, lose 4 players at different times from the roster in the season, lose their head coach to a brain injury and have the toughest non conference schedule the program has had in years. What would have your expectations been? 22-9 after all of that. Im sorry but that is a remarkable achievement. Have went way beyond what I expected. In a rebuilding year they somehow put it together and got to the tourney and possibly are even peeking at the right time. It's about having a balance of wanting the program to grow and also appreciating what it has and is accomplishing. That is what Jeff, myself, and other posters have a problem with at times. The criticism at times lacks perspective. We've been to count them two sweet 16s since 1996 as NTS pointed out. We are not Kentcuky. We are not Duke. We are not Kansas. We never have had the consistency of those blue chipers. I would love for Cincy basketball to get as close as possible. But to just say I expect them to be that without looking at all the circumstances surrounding the program is short sighted. The fact of the matter is we have survived the death penalty and have rebuilt ourselves to be in the top 10th percentile of the sport. There is room to grow no doubt about it but there is a lot to be celebrated as well.

Here's the thing Jack...I am a simple man. I predicted a 23-8 record and a 14-4 conference record. We didn't meet that on either front, so I will not call this overachieving. It's really that simple for me. And I hardly think that prediction is unrealistic or short-sighted, especially when you consider who we lost to and how we lost. I get who we had to replace, but you act like we had no control over that situation. The reason we had to replace all of that is bc we completely whiffed on back to back recruiting classes. That isn't acceptable. And it can't ever happen again. So I refuse to just casually explain away a rough year for our caliber of a program with something that major being the main reason for the struggle. Had we landed 1 quality HS player in 2012, we may have been able to completely avoid all of this rebuilding stuff. But we did not. I'm allowed to have questions about that. Now I'm not calling for the coach's job or anything close to that. But I wasn't exactly calling for a 28-3 record either. I'm just never going to be happy about losing 9 times in the regular season as a member of the AAC. And that's ok. I absolutely agree that we are peaking at the right time and I'm very excited about the years to come. I accept this season as the reality, but I don't have to celebrate it like we've reached new heights. That's all.

 

[L-T]

Last year could have been viewed as an over-achievement, until we lost in the 1st round of the tournament to a 12th seeded Ivy League School.

This year is not over. We have two tournaments left. After those two, we can judge if we over-achieved or not. Finishing 3rd place in a lousy conference is not good, especially when you consider that we were 3-0 against the two teams that finished ahead of us.....and still finished 3rd. Anything less than at least one win in the NCAA is not good in my book. Three straight 1st round losses would be as significant in a negative way, as 5 straight NCAAs would be in a positive way...in my opinion.

Regardless, it's all about the future. That is what looks bright. We'll obviously never agree on these past 9 years. But, I think we agree on the next couple and for the first time in many years, I'm ready for next season to start, but I'm also excited about the rest of this season with the way we're playing now. It's been a while since I've had this level of excitment for what is to come.

Back in early December, Waterhead said he "expected" a Final Four in the next two years. Jacob is on record as "expecting 27-4 next year. I have really high expectations as well. I'm happy to see some people actually raising the bar of expectations very high.

 

[JackBauer151]

Here's the thing Jack...I am a simple man. I predicted a 23-8 record and a 14-4 conference record. We didn't meet that on either front, so I will not call this overachieving. It's really that simple for me. And I hardly think that prediction is unrealistic or short-sighted, especially when you consider who we lost to and how we lost. I get who we had to replace, but you act like we had no control over that situation. The reason we had to replace all that is bc we completely whiffed on back to back recruiting classes. That isn't acceptable. And it can't ever happen again. So I refuse to just casually explain away a rough year for our caliber of a program with something that major being the main reason for the struggle. Had we landed 1 quality HS player in 2012, we may have been able to completely avoid all of this rebuilding stuff. But we did not. I'm allowed to have questions about that. Now I'm not calling for the coach's job or anything close to that. But I wasn't exactly calling for a 28-3 record either. I'm just never going to be happy losing 9 times in the regular season as a member of the AAC. I absolutely agree that we are peaking at the right time and I'm very excited about the years to come. I accept this season as the reality, but I don't have to celebrate it like we've reached new heights. That's all.

That's fine to talk about what could have been in recruiting. The reality once again is sometimes you do miss. Kids dont pan out. You evaluate the best that you can but sometimes kids turn out to be like Jermaine Lawrence and sometimes they turn out to be like Sean Kilpatrick. The point is to be able to overcome the adversity the program faces. I totally agree 2012 has been a nightmare but Shaq has been playing better and Ellis while he took a two year absence is probably the reason we are dancing. So in hindsight overall it didnt turn out well but it worked well enough. Nobody asked you to celebrate it as a new heights moment. Nobody is celebrating it as such. However there is something to be said for the culture of this program to be able to overcome all the adversity it has faced this season. Keeping the train on the tracks, developing players that arent blue chip recruits, and still doing what Cincinnati basketball does: Win. This team found a way and no matter what happens from here on out I will celebrate what they have accomplished this year. That's all.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

That's fine to talk about what could have been in recruiting. The reality once again is sometimes you do miss. Kids dont pan out. You evaluate the best that you can but sometimes kids turn out to be like Jermaine Lawrence and sometimes they turn out to be like Sean Kilpatrick. The point is to be able to overcome the adversity the program faces. I totally agree 2012 has been a nightmare but Shaq has been playing better and Ellis while he took a two year absence is probably the reason we are dancing. So in hindsight overall it didnt turn out well but it worked well enough. Nobody asked you to celebrate it as a new heights moment. Nobody is celebrating it as such. However there is something to be said for the culture of this program to be able to overcome all the adversity it has faced this season. Keeping the train on the tracks, developing players that arent blue chip recruits, and still doing what Cincinnati basketball does: Win. This team found a way and no matter what happens from here on out I will celebrate what they have accomplished this year. That's all.

I agree with this.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

If UConn can do it without 1 and done players, so can we. UK already won the 2015 championship in my eyes. I hope I'm wrong and they lose round 2, but we'll see. Next year could be the year it happens. If they don't do it then, it won't be the end of Mick, the program, the world, etc. The beauty of not having a 7 game playoff system is that anyone can get hot at the right time and do it. Making it 5 years in a row is one step closer to accomplishing that goal. I'm ready for some tourney runs and we should expect them at this point. First round losses happen to the best programs out there, but those same teams make the Elite 8, Final 4, etc. I'm ready to see some higher rated recruits, tourney runs and less home losses. We should not lose at home to ANYONE. Especially Tulane

I missed this one. Nice post. I think one of our main goals for next year should definitely be to protect our home floor and go undefeated at hone.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I missed this one. Nice post. I think one of our main goals for next year should definitely be to protect our home floor and go undefeated at hone.

Our main goal should be to take better care of the ball. If we do that we will win a lot of games. TO.s this year have killed us a number of times.

 

[cincrulz11]

It's perfectly fine to have high standards for a program but some of us just ask for a little perspective. A dose of reality if you will. If I told you about a college basketball team before the season and told you that they would be: losing 62% of their offense, 61% of their rebounding, lost 4 of their 5 starters one of whom was a first team all american, would have 7 new players, lose 4 players at different times from the roster in the season, lose their head coach to a brain injury and have the toughest non conference schedule the program has had in years. What would have your expectations been?

Add in the regression of Shaq from last season, KJ's inability to do well on a consistent basis, and Morman being a completely non-factor.


Had you told me before the season started that Shaq and KJ would have played as poorly as they did for the majority of the season, I would have thought we would have been in all kinds of trouble.


Mick absolutely nailed it on Ellis and Cobb. Caupain, Clark, Ellis, and Cobb in the last 2 classes? Heck yeah.

 

[L-T]

Add in the regression of Shaq from last season, KJ's inability to do well on a consistent basis, and Morman being a completely non-factor.


Had you told me before the season started that Shaq and KJ would have played as poorly as they did for the majority of the season, I would have thought we would have been in all kinds of trouble.


Mick absolutely nailed it on Ellis and Cobb. Caupain, Clark, Ellis, and Cobb in the last 2 classes? Heck yeah.

Who's responsibility is it to develop players?

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Add in the regression of Shaq from last season, KJ's inability to do well on a consistent basis, and Morman being a completely non-factor.


Had you told me before the season started that Shaq and KJ would have played as poorly as they did for the majority of the season, I would have thought we would have been in all kinds of trouble.


Mick absolutely nailed it on Ellis and Cobb. Caupain, Clark, Ellis, and Cobb in the last 2 classes? Heck yeah.

I still have hopes that Quadri Moore can be a Jae Crowder type by the time it is all said and done. He has a lot of work to do, but I'd add him and KJ to the list of good recruits the last 2 years. Both have a lot of basketball left here.

 

[cincrulz11]

I still have hopes that Quadri Moore can be a Jae Crowder type by the time it is all said and done. He has a lot of work to do, but I'd add him and KJ to the list of good recruits the last 2 years. Both have a lot of basketball left here.

For sure they have a chance to be solid by the time their careers are over, but it is also nice to have guys that can play the day they step on campus.


I'd add in Morman if we can get his head on straight. I'm not sure what the issues with him are, but he's too athletic to bring nothing to this team in the future, assuming he's still here.

 

[LaxCat31]

I'd add in Morman if we can get his head on straight. I'm not sure what the issues with him are, but he's too athletic to bring nothing to this team in the future, assuming he's still here.

Speaking of Morman... What's up with him? Everything has been real quiet.

 

[JackBauer151]

Who's responsibility is it to develop players?

It's actually a lot of people. Obviously I know what you are getting at. However if you go listen to Mick's podcast with Jon Rothstein you'll realize how little time the coaches actually get with their players. Coaches have to give the kid the tools but it's up to the player to develop themselves. In the off season they need to be in the weight room, have a good diet, condition properly, shoot, dribble, pass, and do all the things necessary to improve. Sean Kilpatrick wasnt Sean Kilpatrick because of Mick Cronin. He was that way because he bought into the hard work that was required to be the player he wanted to be. Kenyon Martin didnt become Kenyon Martin his senior year because Bob Huggins gave him some magic elixir that he hadnt given him the last 3 years. He put on 20 lbs in the off season and became a much better free throw shooter which allowed him to dominate in the paint. Shaq Thomas is in year 4 and still shoots a line drive jump shot. Some kids get it. Some kids dont. Sometimes it just takes longer for the light to come on. I dont mean to diminish your point because obviously the coach, his staff, and the trainers all have a hand in player development. I just wanted to point out at the end of the day most players either make it or break it on their own accord.

 

[L-T]

It's actually a lot of people. Obviously I know what you are getting at. However if you go listen to Mick's podcast with Jon Rothstein you'll realize how little time the coaches actually get with their players. Coaches have to give the kid the tools but it's up to the player to develop themselves. In the off season they need to be in the weight room, have a good diet, condition properly, shoot, dribble, pass, and do all the things necessary to improve. Sean Kilpatrick wasnt Sean Kilpatrick because of Mick Cronin. He was that way because he bought into the hard work that was required to be the player he wanted to be. Kenyon Martin didnt become Kenyon Martin his senior year because Bob Huggins gave him some magic elixir that he hadnt given him the last 3 years. He put on 20 lbs in the off season and became a much better free throw shooter which allowed him to dominate in the paint. Shaq Thomas is in year 4 and still shoots a line drive jump shot. Some kids get it. Some kids dont. Sometimes it just takes longer for the light to come on. I dont mean to diminish your point because obviously the coach, his staff, and the trainers all have a hand in player development. I just wanted to point out at the end of the day most players either make it or break it on their own accord.

I hear what you're saying, but on this site, if it's something negative that happened, it's never Mick's fault. If it's something positive, Mick is a miracle worker. Jacob accurately pointed out that we had back to back horrible recruiting years that had a huge effect on why we were suddenly in a major rebuilding year. Now, we're giving Mick credit for making this a pretty good season when so many players regressed. Nobody has any idea how hard these guys worked on their own, just like we have no idea how good a job the coaches did developing them. The point is, if the coaches get credit for the good, they need to also get credit for the bad. The buck always stops at the top. That's why he gets paid over $2 million a year.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Speaking of Morman... What's up with him? Everything has been real quiet.

Yeah that's concerning. At least with Quadri we had an idea of what the situation was.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

It's actually a lot of people. Obviously I know what you are getting at. However if you go listen to Mick's podcast with Jon Rothstein you'll realize how little time the coaches actually get with their players. Coaches have to give the kid the tools but it's up to the player to develop themselves. In the off season they need to be in the weight room, have a good diet, condition properly, shoot, dribble, pass, and do all the things necessary to improve. Sean Kilpatrick wasnt Sean Kilpatrick because of Mick Cronin. He was that way because he bought into the hard work that was required to be the player he wanted to be. Kenyon Martin didnt become Kenyon Martin his senior year because Bob Huggins gave him some magic elixir that he hadnt given him the last 3 years. He put on 20 lbs in the off season and became a much better free throw shooter which allowed him to dominate in the paint. Shaq Thomas is in year 4 and still shoots a line drive jump shot. Some kids get it. Some kids dont. Sometimes it just takes longer for the light to come on. I dont mean to diminish your point because obviously the coach, his staff, and the trainers all have a hand in player development. I just wanted to point out at the end of the day most players either make it or break it on their own accord.

I think Mick makes an excellent point about coaches needing more time with the players in the offseason.

 

[JackBauer151]

I hear what you're saying, but on this site, if it's something negative that happened, it's never Mick's fault. If it's something positive, Mick is a miracle worker. Jacob accurately pointed out that we had back to back horrible recruiting years that had a huge effect on why we were suddenly in a major rebuilding year. Now, we're giving Mick credit for making this a pretty good season when so many players regressed. Nobody has any idea how hard these guys worked on their own, just like we have no idea how good a job the coaches did developing them. The point is, if the coaches get credit for the good, they need to also get credit for the bad. The buck always stops at the top. That's why he gets paid over $2 million a year.

I disagree with your characterization of this sites view of Mick but I agree coaches need to be evaluated on everything. I personally think coaches get too much credit for the good things and too much blame for the bad. The reality with most things lies in the middle. But you are right its his program and buck stops with him. Think we'll find out what this program can really be with him at the helm over the next few years.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I hear what you're saying, but on this site, if it's something negative that happened, it's never Mick's fault. If it's something positive, Mick is a miracle worker. Jacob accurately pointed out that we had back to back horrible recruiting years that had a huge effect on why we were suddenly in a major rebuilding year. Now, we're giving Mick credit for making this a pretty good season when so many players regressed. Nobody has any idea how hard these guys worked on their own, just like we have no idea how good a job the coaches did developing them. The point is, if the coaches get credit for the good, they need to also get credit for the bad. The buck always stops at the top. That's why he gets paid over $2 million a year.

I agree ultimately the buck stops with the coach. I actually enjoy your post.don't always agree but I like to read your thoughts.

The reason you may be in conflict with some posters is that you often overstate your view. A example is your comment now we're giving Mick credit for making this a pretty good season when so many players regressed. Who has regressed??? Thomas Sanders never have been. KJ is still the same or a little better. Who regressed? Ellis,Cobb,DeBerry, TC? Morman did not play.