State of the team

[#BearcatNation]

YOUR SCORERS you stated average between ALL 3 scoring 23 pts a game. Not to mention UC is 290th in Div 1 basketball in scoring. This team will be no different next year, it CAN'T score enough points, game in, game out, and that's the reality of this team, deal with it.

You're being very one-dimensional in your research. As silly as it sounds, points per game is an awful way to determine how efficient an offense is. We've scored 106.6 points per 100 possessions, good for 83rd in the country. Still not great, but it's improving. In comparison, last year, we were 110th in the country in ppp. And that was with a veteran team and a guy averaging over 20 a game as a 1st team All-American. I think we'll be in the 50s next year in ppp, and as long as we can keep our defense top 20 (8th last year, 15th this year), we'll be damn good.

Don't over-stress offense. A great offense is pointless without a solid defense. Ask Indiana. They're a bubble team, but have the 10th most efficient offense in basketball. Why are they on the bubble? 224th in defensive ppp.

 

[U of Cin]

You're being very one-dimensional in your research. As silly as it sounds, points per game is an awful way to determine how efficient an offense is. We've scored 106.6 points per 100 possessions, good for 83rd in the country. Still not great, but it's improving. In comparison, last year, we were 110th in the country in ppp. And that was with a veteran team and a guy averaging over 20 a game as a 1st team All-American. I think we'll be in the 50s next year in ppp, and as long as we can keep our defense top 20 (8th last year, 15th this year), we'll be damn good.

Don't over-stress offense. A great offense is pointless without a solid defense. Ask Indiana. They're a bubble team, but have the 10th most efficient offense in basketball. Why are they on the bubble? 224th in defensive ppp.

and UC is an 8 or 9 seed ONLY a few spots ahead of Indiana, just reverse UC's OFF and DEF. stats with Indiana, you just made my point for me. If your ranked 45th-60th in the nation, BOTH teams aren't that good to begin with.

 

[U of Cin]

This is the SAME uc team who scored 13 pts, at HOME against Tulane in a half right? Yet for some magic reason, this will be a top 10 program next year. Shake yourselves.

 

[#BearcatNation]

and UC is an 8 or 9 seed ONLY a few spots ahead of Indiana, just reverse UC's OFF and DEF. stats with Indiana, you just made my point for me. If your ranked 45th-60th in the nation, BOTH teams aren't that good to begin with.

We're 33rd to their 55th in KenPom, so no, not "only a few spots ahead." My point is a good offense does not cure all. It just looks prettier. You were also being way too harsh on our offense. Our points per game is low because we run at a slower pace. Not saying our offense is great, but it's fine, for now.

 

[cincrulz11]

This is the SAME uc team who scored 13 pts, at HOME against Tulane in a half right? Yet for some magic reason, this will be a top 10 program next year. Shake yourselves.

This is the SAME uc team who scored 55 in a half vs temple. I think we'll probably be the best team of all time next year.

 

[PakMan]

I came on BearcatTalk for the first time in about a week expecting to find some threads that would get me excited for tomorrow's game. Instead, I come on here to find L-T and U of Cin pissing on everybody's corn flakes.

Are you so miserable that you can't even wait until the season is over before you start complaining? I know you think you're right, but quit being so douchey and enjoy the damn moment.

When its over, you can remind us how you were right, and you knew everything all along, and how the rest of us suck. But its pathetic to do it now.

 

[JackBauer151]

You do realize this team is 290th in Div 1 basketball in scoring this season right? How in the world can you come on here, and say they will be just fine next year, they CAN't score enough or shoot good enough to be a real threat next season with MOST of these same players back.

You do realize defense and pace of play is not considered in that statistic right? Players do get better you realize that right? You do realize the head coach will be back next year right? Having the same players back is an advantage not an obstacle. They have gotten better and better as the year has gone on. Which is to be expected with a team that had 7 new players and at one point 5 new starters. They get comfortable playing with each other and the system in which they play. They are starting to show their true potential. Not to mention this horrible team you are describing has 6 top 50 wins. Only 13 teams in the country have more. Dont think they will improve that is your right but it's not raining on my optimism for next year. Will crack the top 15 in the rankings, win the league, and make a deep run in March.

 

[L-T]

I came on BearcatTalk for the first time in about a week expecting to find some threads that would get me excited for tomorrow's game. Instead, I come on here to find L-T and U of Cin pissing on everybody's corn flakes.

Are you so miserable that you can't even wait until the season is over before you start complaining? I know you think you're right, but quit being so douchey and enjoy the damn moment.

When its over, you can remind us how you were right, and you knew everything all along, and how the rest of us suck. But its pathetic to do it now.

This is a discussion of the state of the team/program. Blame the person who started the thread for not doing it until after the season. For the most part, it's been a good discussion and debate from both sides, without personal attacks...until you showed up. So, we thank you for your solid contribution. If you want to talk about the game, then start a game thread and stay in there. Pretty simple.

 

[BearcatSpaniard513]

I came on BearcatTalk for the first time in about a week expecting to find some threads that would get me excited for tomorrow's game. Instead, I come on here to find L-T and U of Cin pissing on everybody's corn flakes.

Are you so miserable that you can't even wait until the season is over before you start complaining? I know you think you're right, but quit being so douchey and enjoy the damn moment.

When its over, you can remind us how you were right, and you knew everything all along, and how the rest of us suck. But its pathetic to do it now.

It really does keep people away from here. This team has overachieved this year by making the tournament, yet some people are still complaining about our coach, conference, this and that. Just sit back, enjoy the conference tournament. Enjoy the seeding process. Fill out your brackets. This first game we play is just icing on the cake. If we win it, great! If not... reading a lot of posts on here will be a waste of time and brain cells for the next couple months. We don't always need the black cloud hanging over us because a couple fans aren't happy.

Guess what...

- We made the tournament for the 5th consecutive year with 7 new players
- We lost our head coach in the middle of the year
- We had 2 players suspended at different times
- 1 player kicked off the team
- 1 of only 2 seniors was granted his release from the program and never really played
- We return everybody except Sanders....
- PLUS add 3 new recruits

Will somebody please add a meme of Russell Crowe from Gladiator saying "Are you not entertained?!"

 

[cincrulz11]

I think people tend to forget how hard it is to actually make the tournament every year. You look at teams that have been better than us in recent history, your Pitts, Syracuse, UConn, Florida, Memphis, Michigan. None of those teams are making the dance this year. Those are big programs. It's freaking hard to put a team out there every single year. People can deny that all they want, but it's the truth.

 

[L-T]

This is the SAME uc team who scored 13 pts, at HOME against Tulane in a half right? Yet for some magic reason, this will be a top 10 program next year. Shake yourselves.

I know where you're coming from on the offense argument, but I have to agree with the majority on this point. I've seen some significant improvement in the pace of play, offense, scoring, and shooting in recent games....enough to give me a lot more hope for next season. Mick's seniors have performed pretty good, and next year he will have a bunch of them. I honestly believe our points per game will reach 70 for the first time in Mick's tenure. If we reach an avg. like that, factored in with how awesome our defense "should" be, we'll be very very difficult to beat. Sweet 16 should be a minimum expectation, and it could be better than that. I don't think we'll see offensive performances like we did last year and early this year in the next couple years. <crossing fingers>

 

[Bearcat_Ross]

It really does keep people away from here. This team has overachieved this year by making the tournament, yet some people are still complaining about our coach, conference, this and that. Just sit back, enjoy the conference tournament. Enjoy the seeding process. Fill out your brackets. This first game we play is just icing on the cake. If we win it, great! If not... reading a lot of posts on here will be a waste of time and brain cells for the next couple months. We don't always need the black cloud hanging over us because a couple fans aren't happy.

Guess what...

- We made the tournament for the 5th consecutive year with 7 new players
- We lost our head coach in the middle of the year
- We had 2 players suspended at different times
- 1 player kicked off the team
- 1 of only 2 seniors was granted his release from the program and never really played
- We return everybody except Sanders....
- PLUS add 3 new recruits

Will somebody please add a meme of Russell Crowe from Gladiator saying "Are you not entertained?!"

Seriously though. I never understood why people come on here and do nothing but talk bad about this program, team, coach, or whatever it may be. If you aren't satisfied there are plenty of other things to do with your spare time. Its like joining a car club and talking bad about your car...its your vehicle, you chose it. Just like it is your choice to follow this team. If you don't like it tuck and roll. Plenty of room elsewhere.

 

[JackBauer151]

I know where you're coming from on the offense argument, but I have to agree with the majority on this point. I've seen some significant improvement in the pace of play, offense, scoring, and shooting in recent games....enough to give me a lot more hope for next season. Mick's seniors have performed pretty good, and next year he will have a bunch of them. I honestly believe our points per game will reach 70 for the first time in Mick's tenure. If we reach an avg. like that, factored in with how awesome our defense "should" be, we'll be very very difficult to beat. Sweet 16 should be a minimum expectation, and it could be better than that. I don't think we'll see offensive performances like we did last year and early this year in the next couple years. <crossing fingers>

2016 recruiting class is so important for the future. Such a solid core is in place but after those 4 seniors leave we have to reload. It cant be 2012 all over again. Time to take the next step.

 

[L-T]

2016 recruiting class is so important for the future. Such a solid core is in place but after those 4 seniors leave we have to reload. It cant be 2012 all over again. Time to take the next step.

Jack, I know we go at it often on here, but I agree with you 100% on this. This is the best opportunity we've had in a long time to get some serious momentum and to get to that next level. Next years seniors will be a load to lose. But, we will have a real solid core still coming back and it won't be as tough to mix in a few good pieces and keep on rolling.

 

[waterhead]

Look, I want this team to get better as well, but let's be honest there aren't enough scorers, or shooters on this team to be much better then what it is right now, next season. I truly think you guys are crazy if you think this is even a top 25 team, next year. Yes, they play tough def. but the offense is sadly lacking to be a top 25 team next season. Mick hasn't recruited any good scoring threats, or shooters the last couple of seasons, and it shows, with this team scoring in the high 40's or low 50's most nights. Now with the Conf. they are in, not being very tough, and with that said, they will win 20-22 games next season as well, but it will be more of being in this bad Conf., then being a top basketball program in the near future. Sorry just how I feel, right now.

It seems to me you are making your argument from what you think you see and not what is really happening. In addition you don't even seem to know which stats to use to prove your point...even if it was valid.

UC averages 62 pts per game. We have scored in the high 40's to low 50's 7 times out of 31 games...which is 22.5% of the time. It's actually 4 out of 31 if you don't count the games we scored 54 points which I would consider mid 50's...which is 13% of the time. The overwhelming majority of the time we are doing the opposite of what you thought we were. As others have pointed out...we aren't low scoring because we can't shoot...it's because we play at a slower tempo than almost every other team.

Our scoring problems are tempo related and turnovers per possession problems. Not shooting accuracy related.

 

[Ryno99]

This is the SAME uc team who scored 13 pts, at HOME against Tulane in a half right? Yet for some magic reason, this will be a top 10 program next year. Shake yourselves.

First off, offensively yes this team isn't great, but it's not their shooting, it's the TO's. Since they've been taking the best shots, working the ball inside out and pushing the ball up the court the offense has actually been much better.

Secondly, I think the bread crumb track you left back to Norwood is over there, it's about time you follow it home.

 

[bearcat jeff]

Again, you pick one piece of the puzzle to make your point. In this case, it's NCAA performance. That's as close as you can get to a valid comparison, so you conveniently stop there. There are three key parts of every season. Regular season, League Tournament, and NCAA Tournament. Yes, Mick almost approaches the later Huggs years in the NCAA, except for the fact that in 14 years, Huggs only had two 1st round losses. Mick has had two in a row in just 4 years (notice I'm not even counting his first 4 seasons here). When you talk regular seasons, national rankings, recruiting, and the league tournaments, that's where the comparison gets comical. I can see why you don't want to acknowledge any of those facts.

Then we get to Mick's big accomplishment...."5" straight trips to the NCAA. Only 16 teams have done that. Yep, that puts him ahead of John Calipari. Oh wait, he has a national championship, a runner-up, an elite 8, not to mention this year's team that will probably win it all as well. But, Mick is obviously better because he has 5 in a row.

Or, how about Brad Stevens? That bum missed the NCAA in his 5th season. Oh, but he had 2 national championship games and a sweet 16 mixed around the year he didn't go at all. But, Mick is better at 5 in a row.

Or, should we talk about Buzz Williams? In 2013/2014, he missed the NCAA. This puts Mick ahead of him. Oh, but the 3 years before that, he had an elite 8 and 2 sweet 16s. But, Mick is obviously better with his 5 in a row.

Then there's poor Ben Howland. Missed the NCAA 2 of his last 4 years, following 3 trips to the Final 4 with one national championship game. He was fired. Mick's resume obviously looks better than his with his 5 in a row doesn't it?

It doesn't matter if we re-visit the past, or the present, the comparison is the same. His 5 NCAAs in a row are a nice little accomplishment. But, when you look at the big picture, it's a pretty weak argument when trying to label his performance as amazing or tremendous.

He's proven to be a pretty good coach, and he has us poised "on Paper" to take that next step that people like me have yearned for. The next two years will determine if I join all of you in annointing Mick as the real deal. NCAA runs, national rankings, and improved recruiting are a must. As of now, continue to call me skeptical.

My post is valid and if you read it i said Mick has a long way to go branding the program.

The tournament is not one piece of the puzzle LT it is the puzzle. It's what every team strives for. It's what gets you on television. It sells your program to make it in consistently. Five straight is significant and you can belittle it all you want but you can't belittle it and not acknowledge the failures of 1996-2005 because it is part of the era you always want to reference the program back to.

You also like to throw other coaches and programs up to make a point but hate to acknowledge 1 final four appearance in 16 years with multiple flame outs in spite of top four seeding. Those are facts not shots being taken.

There are many parts to a program and they all are important. I want all those things. I want UC TALKED ABOUT WITH THE DUKES AND UK's of the world. But none of that happens without making the tournament year after year. Yes you have to make a splash but you have to get into the water first and Mick Cronin has put UC back in the water.

You can't have it both ways. You can't acknowledge only the good in one era and only what you see as bad in the present. I will say this again and I say it based on seeing you post multiple places. You do not like this head coach and that's OK. But let's be honest about the bias. He's done a helluva job making UC relevant again whether you want to acknowledge that or not.

 

[Bearcat22]

It seems to me you are making your argument from what you think you see and not what is really happening. In addition you don't even seem to know which stats to use to prove your point...even if it was valid.

UC averages 62 pts per game. We have scored in the high 40's to low 50's 7 times out of 31 games...which is 22.5% of the time. It's actually 4 out of 31 if you don't count the games we scored 54 points which I would consider mid 50's...which is 13% of the time. The overwhelming majority of the time we are doing the opposite of what you thought we were. As others have pointed out...we aren't low scoring because we can't shoot...it's because we play at a slower tempo than almost every other team.

Our scoring problems are tempo related and turnovers per possession problems. Not shooting accuracy related.

Nice post!

I think the perception of the Cat's offense often trumps the facts for many people. In almost every ESPN game the commentator always leads with saying the game is going to be "ugly" or a "rock fight" and justs blame bad offense with little to no context (they also credit the Defense to be fair). Bobby Knight is an exception, mostly because he spends 20 minutes telling old free-throw stories.

 

[bearcat jeff]

I know where you're coming from on the offense argument, but I have to agree with the majority on this point. I've seen some significant improvement in the pace of play, offense, scoring, and shooting in recent games....enough to give me a lot more hope for next season. Mick's seniors have performed pretty good, and next year he will have a bunch of them. I honestly believe our points per game will reach 70 for the first time in Mick's tenure. If we reach an avg. like that, factored in with how awesome our defense "should" be, we'll be very very difficult to beat. Sweet 16 should be a minimum expectation, and it could be better than that. I don't think we'll see offensive performances like we did last year and early this year in the next couple years. <crossing fingers>

On this you and I are in complete agreement.

 

[L-T]

My post is valid and if you read it i said Mick has a long way to go branding the program.

The tournament is not one piece of the puzzle LT it is the puzzle. It's what every team strives for. It's what gets you on television. It sells your program to make it in consistently. Five straight is significant and you can belittle it all you want but you can't belittle it and not acknowledge the failures of 1996-2005 because it is part of the era you always want to reference the program back to.

You also like to throw other coaches and programs up to make a point but hate to acknowledge 1 final four appearance in 16 years with multiple flame outs in spite of top four seeding. Those are facts not shots being taken.

There are many parts to a program and they all are important. I want all those things. I want UC TALKED ABOUT WITH THE DUKES AND UK's of the world. But none of that happens without making the tournament year after year. Yes you have to make a splash but you have to get into the water first and Mick Cronin has put UC back in the water.

You can't have it both ways. You can't acknowledge only the good in one era and only what you see as bad in the present. I will say this again and I say it based on seeing you post multiple places. You do not like this head coach and that's OK. But let's be honest about the bias. He's done a helluva job making UC relevant again whether you want to acknowledge that or not.

Jeff, you're all over the board on this post. Too many things to comment on and not enough time to do it. I'll keep it short for now. If the NCAA is the puzzle, then unfortunately I'll have to cut a lot of Mick's accomplishments out and the picture gets even bleaker. Using your rules, his 50% 1st round losses, and losing to a 12 seed Ivy League school as a 5 seed paints a sad picture. Huggs made at least the Elite 8 in 3 of 14 appearances or about 20% of the time. That means Mick needs to make the elite 8 this year or he falls further behind. He has never gotten us a Top 4 seed. We've averaged about an 8 seed under his watch....pretty weak. We can make the tournament for 100 straight years and we'll still never be mentioned with Dukes and KYs with this performance. AAC Coach of the year...gone...not part of the puzzle. AAC Co Championship....gone....not part of the puzzle. Big East Tournament Championship game....gone....not part of the puzzle.

As we know, saying there's only one piece of the puzzle is ridiculous. But, if that's all you want to acknowledge as meaningful, that's fine. In those 14 years, 29 schools made the Final 4. Only 14 made it more than once. I'd say that is pretty good. You say it is horrible. Making the tournament consecutively is pretty meaningless if you're never making a splash. Xavier, Dayton, and Ohio State are all out-drawing us and out-recruiting us, and have all made big splshes in the only part of the puzzle that matters to you. Butler, George Mason, VCU etc have been to the final 4. Under your criteria, we're a lot further down the food chain than under my criteria.