The Wes Miller Era

[cincyguy13]

I think mason will likely be back. Doesn’t seem like he has many good options. Mikey, I think wants to come back since he’s from Indy, but is wait and see. Probably 50-50. Tari I never thought would come back. He always seemed like he wanted to go back west but the longer he waits, the more likely he considers it. I’d still go 30% chance he comes back. Also, these are just my opinion.

I’d take anyone at this point that is a decent player. We need a lot of players

 

[skyblade]

That sounds good, wanting a certain type of player, but when you need to sign 9 players in a couple months, you take what you can get with about 6 of them. If you want to be picky with 2-3, great, but he needs 9 players. If they are decent at all, he’ll probably take them this year

Yeah, that's why I think this year will show his (claimed) willingness to adjust. He's not going to get all players who fit his system, but he's going to need to find a way to make it work anyway.

Recruiting will be interesting. I think you take what you can get with about 1/3rd grad transfers, try to get 1/3rd freshmen who are what you really want and then 1/3rd guys who mostly fit your style who are Sophomores or Juniors.

 

[waterhead]

Based on everything I've seen, Wes values plus athleticism in recruits first and foremost in terms of attributes. Culturally values guys who are tough and willing to give their all on defense.

The main guy who may not fit that style here is Lakhin. Speculation that he may transfer, but nothing concrete. Mason may be a bit of a question in terms of athleticism, but I think he brings enough to the table in terms of defense, intensity and shooting that Miller will want him back (maybe not as a starter). Eason seems like a perfect fit and Saunders may not have the ideal length, but he brings a lot in terms of quickness and Miller seems to like quick guards who pressure hard. Hope they both come back.

The biggest thing in terms of recruiting is getting big men. Lakhin is a big question mark even if he stays, want at least one developmental recruit and one guy who can play now (could be Diarra), perhaps even a third guy.

There is a lot of talk that Wes is willing to adjust to his players. Much more so than Brannen (not at all) and Cronin (barely at all) were willing to. I'm hoping this is the case and if it is it should show year one.

This is the part that worries me a little. I don't want a Cronin 2.0 so I hope he can recruit a tad better or can find better ways to score. Cronin did very well here but did get stuck at a ceiling. We are still going to have to score the ball in the tourney or have 1-2 guys who can take over a game when necessary. If he is willing to make adjustments over being stubborn that will help.

 

[sedziobs]

In terms of NBA potential though, he needs to develop a 3. Athleticism is great, but if you can't shoot the three (especially at only 6 feet tall) you're not going far.

Yes, this was my point. I know he's really good, and as cincrulz said he put up better numbers in previous years. I just don't think he has much of a chance to go straight to the NBA. So the question is if he want to play in the G League or a play on a bigger college stage in his final year. I think we might actually be an option.

I definitely don't want him shooting anywhere close to 257 midrange shots though (9 per game). Even at an ok rate of 38%, it's the equivalent of 25% from three. Could you imagine if we had a guy chuck up 9 threes every game and only hit 25% of them? The closest we've had was in 2013 when SK shot 8 per game at 31% (plus 4 midrange shots at 38%). Our offense was outside the top 100 that year, the worst in Cronin's years after the first couple rebuild seasons.

 

[skyblade]

You should probably look at his highest rated recruit. He's a lot more Lakhin and Bryson Spell than what you're describing here.


Jarrett Hensley tells me he realized he needs shooters than can stretch the floor to mix with his athletic guards. Plus he had the big center that was slow and took 3's.


So umm, it kinda looks a lot like Brannens roster construction (which I think is typical for a 4 out 1 in style offense that he runs).

Koval didn't start, averaged right around 20 minutes and was quite a bit more mobile than Vogt. Hensley barely played. Every coach wants guys who can do everything. Even Cronin recruited offense first guys now and then (Kyle Washington, Broome, Jarron).

The question is, what are they going to prioritize as things that get guys on the floor? Brannen strongly prioritized offense, Cronin strongly prioritized defense, Miller seems to prioritize defense as well.

 

[waterhead]

One other thing I will be looking out for is team chemistry and attitude. Over the years we have seen a lot of upset/frustrated guys and that comes with just about any team. Last year we had guys playing for each other and not the coach at the end of the year. With Cronin it was his way or highway and guys played scared to come out a lot.

There has to be a balance in between somewhere that can keep more of the attitudes positive about their roles etc. It sounds like Wes may have a better handle on that issue but who knows

 

[cincyguy13]

This is the part that worries me a little. I don't want a Cronin 2.0 so I hope he can recruit a tad better or can find better ways to score. Cronin did very well here but did get stuck at a ceiling. We are still going to have to score the ball in the tourney or have 1-2 guys who can take over a game when necessary. If he is willing to make adjustments over being stubborn that will help.

Agree. Hope he doesn’t go full athletes team that can’t score. No one wants that. I don’t know enough about him though. Maybe he isn’t trying to do that either. Time will tell. No sense in getting mad about it yet.

 

[waterhead]

Yes, this was my point. I know he's really good, and as cincrulz said he put up better numbers in previous years. I just don't think he has much of a chance to go straight to the NBA. So the question is if he want to play in the G League or a play on a bigger college stage in his final year. I think we might actually be an option.

I definitely don't want him shooting anywhere close to 257 midrange shots though (9 per game). Even at an ok rate of 38%, it's the equivalent of 25% from three. Could you imagine if we had a guy chuck up 9 threes every game and only hit 25% of them? The closest we've had was in 2013 when SK shot 8 per game at 31% (plus 4 midrange shots at 38%). Our offense was outside the top 100 that year, the worst in Cronin's years after the first couple rebuild seasons.

If we grab Miller I don't know what that says to DD or Mike. It would be interesting to hear what happened with coaches talk with Mike and if any questions like that were brought up. Are you (will you) bring in any more PG's this year?

 

[skyblade]

This is the part that worries me a little. I don't want a Cronin 2.0 so I hope he can recruit a tad better or can find better ways to score. Cronin did very well here but did get stuck at a ceiling. We are still going to have to score the ball in the tourney or have 1-2 guys who can take over a game when necessary. If he is willing to make adjustments over being stubborn that will help.

I am fine with a Cronin 2.0. I am convinced that the NCAA tournament is more about luck than skill (unless you are a 1 or 2 seed and even then luck and matchups play a big role).

I think Miller is more willing to adjust and hopefully that holds true, my biggest complaint with Cronin was his lack of adjustment. He also plays at a faster pace on offense and seems more personable with media, I don't think either of these effects wins/losses, but it should make some fans who didn't like Cronin like him. We will see with recruiting, having Roy Williams as a season ticket holder shouldn't hurt.

 

[cincyguy13]

I am fine with a Cronin 2.0. I am convinced that the NCAA tournament is more about luck than skill (unless you are a 1 or 2 seed and even then luck and matchups play a big role).

I think Miller is more willing to adjust and hopefully that holds true, my biggest complaint with Cronin was his lack of adjustment. He also plays at a faster pace on offense and seems more personable with media, I don't think either of these effects wins/losses, but it should make some fans who didn't like Cronin like him. We will see with recruiting, having Roy Williams as a season ticket holder shouldn't hurt.

I always thought cronin ball would work better if he just gave up a little defense for offense. I think he tried a couple times with quad and a couple others but never really found a balanced equation. It’s just really hard to beat good teams when 2-3 people on the floor can’t score at all. Hope our new coach can find a balance

 

[TheRealMick]

I think Wes should look at any players who he thinks fit the system who also have true shooting percentages above 52. Langley and Abdulsalam fit the mold from last year's team. I don't know what their plans are.

I'm not seeing Isaiah Miller as an NBA player yet. The guy is a horrible shooter. He's a good finisher at the rim (63%) but only 38% from midrange on a boatload of attempts, 21% from three, and 62% from the free throw line. That all adds up to a true shooting percentage below 50. You just can't have a good offense if your highest usage guy is doing that. One of our biggest problems last year was Keith had a crazy high usage and a true shooting percentage of only 48.

But I would take Miller because he's a huge upgrade over DeJulius, who is an even worse shooter and not the same level of athlete.

Miller probably only come play if Williams stays. I can see him going to Arkansas with his best friend JD

 

[waterhead]

Agree. Hope he doesn’t go full athletes team that can’t score. No one wants that. I don’t know enough about him though. Maybe he isn’t trying to do that either. Time will tell. No sense in getting mad about it yet.

They shot a lot of 3's and didn't make many. That's the scary part for me when BB skills are low on the list. The hope is he can up his recruiting here at UC and add the skill with the athletes. But that is easier said than done because everyone wants the skilled athletes who work hard and play D.

Can't wait to see what we start pulling in but if we keep the guys we have we should have a little shooting capability to start out

 

[cincrulz11]

This is the part that worries me a little. I don't want a Cronin 2.0 so I hope he can recruit a tad better or can find better ways to score. Cronin did very well here but did get stuck at a ceiling. We are still going to have to score the ball in the tourney or have 1-2 guys who can take over a game when necessary. If he is willing to make adjustments over being stubborn that will help.

Stylistically they aren't the same on offense. Cronin doesn't want his guys shooting 3's for the most part, Miller's teams shoot a ton of them.


That right there is a huge difference.

 

[TheRealMick]

3 PG lineup could work if DDJ worked on his shot.

 

[TheRealMick]

Stylistically they aren't the same on offense. Cronin doesn't want his guys shooting 3's for the most part, Miller's teams shoot a ton of them.


That right there is a huge difference.

Yeah wanted layups

 

[cincyguy13]

They shot a lot of 3's and didn't make many. That's the scary part for me when BB skills are low on the list. The hope is he can up his recruiting here at UC and add the skill with the athletes. But that is easier said than done because everyone wants the skilled athletes who work hard and play D.

Can't wait to see what we start pulling in but if we keep the guys we have we should have a little shooting capability to start out

We don’t know. Maybe he had to play like that because he could only get those level players. Maybe he changes things with a different level player. Like cronin was able to do a little at UCLA. Who knows but like I said, it’s way too early to get mad about it. Let’s see who he can get.

 

[cincrulz11]

Koval didn't start, averaged right around 20 minutes and was quite a bit more mobile than Vogt. Hensley barely played. Every coach wants guys who can do everything. Even Cronin recruited offense first guys now and then (Kyle Washington, Broome, Jarron).

The question is, what are they going to prioritize as things that get guys on the floor? Brannen strongly prioritized offense, Cronin strongly prioritized defense, Miller seems to prioritize defense as well.

What I'm saying is he signed Hensley, who is nothing like the players you described. You don't sign a Hensley unless you're willing to break outside of one specific philosophy, because Hensley doesn't fit that mold at all.

I'm not talking about offense first vs defense first, I'm talking about skill sets.

Miller has shown he's willing to change aspects of his teams because he thinks he can do better. He might have a consistently evolving mindset when it comes to what he needs (which would be a great thing).

 

[waterhead]

Stylistically they aren't the same on offense. Cronin doesn't want his guys shooting 3's for the most part, Miller's teams shoot a ton of them.


That right there is a huge difference.

That is a big difference. But you can't end up over 300 rank in your % of makes while doing that. His wings have to be able to shoot. And that's the hard part when getting athletes...not a lot can shoot or dribble very well...and if they can everyone wants them. Lock up JD, MAW, and Mason and we will already have some serviceable shooters but they don't wow you as athletes.

 

[skyblade]

They shot a lot of 3's and didn't make many. That's the scary part for me when BB skills are low on the list. The hope is he can up his recruiting here at UC and add the skill with the athletes. But that is easier said than done because everyone wants the skilled athletes who work hard and play D.

Can't wait to see what we start pulling in but if we keep the guys we have we should have a little shooting capability to start out

If you watch his pre-season press conference from last year, he noted three point shooting as one of his biggest concerns. So at least he has shown an awareness of the problem, now he just needs to fix it.

A bit ironically he was known as a player for being a three point shooter (shot 44.1% in the one season he averaged over 20 minutes per game). In every other season he averaged 33.3% or lower from three. So I'm guessing he understands that guys need to get comfortable with the flow of the game if you expect them to shoot well.

 

[cincrulz11]

Yeah wanted layups

Mick doesn't really emphasis those either. His teams take a very high percentage of their shots from the midrange, 40% this year. Miller's team took a midrange 2 26% of the time, and 50% of those were from 1 guy.