Torian Graham 2014 JUCO SG

[BearcatNation54]

i never said they didn't. i just originally asked if you had seen them play- and you haven't.

juco talent isn't what it was 20 years and historically they all have significantly struggled in their first year under cronin. guys who don't guard won't see significant minutes. we don't know if they can guard. i am just trying to temper people's expectations because we can learn from history. i want them to be awesome - i just don't want all of us to be upset if they struggle.

I agree, I want him to be an all american next year if he comes here but all of us are building him up to be a huge game changer and I'm not sure that that will happen his first year.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

i never said they didn't. i just originally asked if you had seen them play- and you haven't.

juco talent isn't what it was 20 years and historically they all have significantly struggled in their first year under cronin. guys who don't guard won't see significant minutes. we don't know if they can guard. i am just trying to temper people's expectations because we can learn from history. i want them to be awesome - i just don't want all of us to be upset if they struggle.

Titus in his Jr year played in all 34 games with 12 starts, averaging 21.8 minutes ... started nine of 18 BIG EAST games ... finished among the team leaders in rebounds (first at 5.9), assists (second at 2.0) and scoring (fourth at 5.9) ... ranked 16th in the BIG EAST in rebounding (5.9) ... led UC in rebounding in 13 games ... led the Bearcats in assists in eight games

In 06' John Williamson was named team MVP and led UC in rebounds (7.3) and was the team's second-leading scorer (13.5) ... finished third in the BIG EAST in offensive rebounding (3.3) and ninth overall.

If that is struggling, I hope that Deberry and any new JUCO's perform that well.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

While I'm happy people are starting to speculate that he is a UC lean and so forth. My concern is that with KY making a deep run in NCAA's, this could create more openings on their roster. It could mean they are back in the running for his service. Really think the Harrison twins,Randle and Young will all be departing for the NBA draft. I probably wouldn't have said that a month ago. This could create a opening with playing time for Graham.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

3 crystal ball predictions now

 

[dp3113]

Titus in his Jr year played in all 34 games with 12 starts, averaging 21.8 minutes ... started nine of 18 BIG EAST games ... finished among the team leaders in rebounds (first at 5.9), assists (second at 2.0) and scoring (fourth at 5.9) ... ranked 16th in the BIG EAST in rebounding (5.9) ... led UC in rebounding in 13 games ... led the Bearcats in assists in eight games

In 06' John Williamson was named team MVP and led UC in rebounds (7.3) and was the team's second-leading scorer (13.5) ... finished third in the BIG EAST in offensive rebounding (3.3) and ninth overall.

If that is struggling, I hope that Deberry and any new JUCO's perform that well.

…..i guess you forget how much heat Titus took on this board and from fans in general in 2012-13.

williamson was good- i will give you that. congrats, you found an exception. he also, however, was playing on a team that had no other alternatives for playing time, especially when Hernol Hall and Adam Hyrcaniuk were ruled in eligible that first year. regardless, one exception doesn't disprove a trend.

again for the 30th time, i want them to be awesome. i just don't want us to get our hopes up and be disappointed.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

…..i guess you forget how much heat Titus took on this board and from fans in general in 2012-13.
williamson was good- i will give you that. congrats, you found an exception. he also, however, was playing on a team that had no other alternatives for playing time, especially when Hernol Hall and Adam Hyrcaniuk were ruled in eligible that first year. regardless, one exception doesn't disprove a trend.

again for the 30th time, i want them to be awesome. i just don't want us to get our hopes up and be disappointed.

That is how we are measuring players, by how much heat they got on BCT message boards? Heck, SK got lots of heat for not being a clutch player during a season when he was selected to AP 1st team.

Since you state that first yr JUCO's have a hard time adjusting in MC's system, what JUCO was a complete flop their first year? I pointed out two that led the team in important categories their first year under MC, who you got?

 

[JasonS]

I would argue against the notion that since JuCo isn't what it was 20 years ago, there are no impact players to come out of JuCo. I agree JuCo isn't as deep now with all the kids not qualifying going the prep school route first, but if you get a top player out of JuCo today, he can still make an impact. Look at Chris Jones for UL. You telling me you wouldn't have taken him on UC's team this year?

 

[mdchick]

While I'm happy people are starting to speculate that he is a UC lean and so forth. My concern is that with KY making a deep run in NCAA's, this could create more openings on their roster. It could mean they are back in the running for his service. Really think the Harrison twins,Randle and Young will all be departing for the NBA draft. I probably wouldn't have said that a month ago. This could create a opening with playing time for Graham.

I was worried about that too, even though I think Randle will be the only one of them to produce in the NBA all 4 of them will have a high stock and it would be smart for them to take that opportunity.

 

[coachpipe]

I would argue against the notion that since JuCo isn't what it was 20 years ago, there are no impact players to come out of JuCo. I agree JuCo isn't as deep now with all the kids not qualifying going the prep school route first, but if you get a top player out of JuCo today, he can still make an impact. Look at Chris Jones for UL. You telling me you wouldn't have taken him on UC's team this year?

Not to mention the 5 or 6 marquette Jucos over the past 4 years or so who all landed in the NBA

 

[dp3113]

I would argue against the notion that since JuCo isn't what it was 20 years ago, there are no impact players to come out of JuCo. I agree JuCo isn't as deep now with all the kids not qualifying going the prep school route first, but if you get a top player out of JuCo today, he can still make an impact. Look at Chris Jones for UL. You telling me you wouldn't have taken him on UC's team this year?

when did i come remotely close to saying I wouldn't take them or a juco for that matter?

again, i am just trying to temper expectations. i never said anything near "i wouldn't take graham or deberry." people are just anointing these guys as starters and no one has seen them play. that is all. fwiw, chris jones was considered by many to be the best JUCO prospect in the past 15 years - if that gives you some perspective on the quality of juco classes now versus the 90s. Shawn Marion and Steve Francis came out of the same juco class in 1998.

 

[dp3113]

Not to mention the 5 or 6 marquette Jucos over the past 4 years or so who all landed in the NBA

3 jucos. crowder, djo, butler.

 

[dp3113]

That is how we are measuring players, by how much heat they got on BCT message boards? Heck, SK got lots of heat for not being a clutch player during a season when he was selected to AP 1st team.

Since you state that first yr JUCO's have a hard time adjusting in MC's system, what JUCO was a complete flop their first year? I pointed out two that led the team in important categories their first year under MC, who you got?

again, when did i say flop?

you guys can twist what i am saying however you want. people are anointing these guys as starters. all i said was they tend to struggle their first year at uc. but if you want to continue to twist my argument into things i did not say, be my guest.

 

[Bearcat04]

I would argue against the notion that since JuCo isn't what it was 20 years ago, there are no impact players to come out of JuCo. I agree JuCo isn't as deep now with all the kids not qualifying going the prep school route first, but if you get a top player out of JuCo today, he can still make an impact. Look at Chris Jones for UL. You telling me you wouldn't have taken him on UC's team this year?

Agreed. It's not as deep, but there are still really good players at the top. Just look at Kadeem Allen, who is headed to Arizona. There are a lot of good programs that have signed the top JUCO talent this year... Arizona, UConn, UC, Oregon, Iowa, Wichita State, Oklahoma State, Memphis, Kansas State, Minnesota, Miami(FL), Florida State...

 

[Bearcat_NTS]

again, when did i say flop?

you guys can twist what i am saying however you want. people are anointing these guys as starters. all i said was they tend to struggle their first year at uc. but if you want to continue to twist my argument into things i did not say, be my guest.

JUCO's are almost always more ready to contribute then freshman. It isn't far fetched to assume that DeBerry would start (Williamson, Rubles, Mbodj and Toyloy all started games their first year).

Graham isn't a typical JUCO either (mentioned this earlier but you ignored). He was rated as highly as #25 in his class coming out of high school and was highly sought after then and also now as a JUCO. Most people that cover JUCO recruiting all have stated he can easily be plugged in as a stater as well.

Don't know why you feel the need to point out the obvious (that they may struggle) over and over again...

 

[Patrick Bateman]

again, when did i say flop?

you guys can twist what i am saying however you want. people are anointing these guys as starters. all i said was they tend to struggle their first year at uc. but if you want to continue to twist my argument into things i did not say, be my guest.

I provided a couple JUCO's that came in and did very well and led the team in important stats. You are stating that JUCO's have a hard time adjusting to Cronins system. So who had a hard time adjusting their first year?

Also, is there a link stating that Jones was best JUCO in 15 years?

You are throwing things out there with nothing to support your case.

Like you said with Williamson, somebody has to start. In the post we have all new players so somebody has to step in and contribute right away.

 

[coachpipe]

3 jucos. crowder, djo, butler.

4. Dwight Buycks. thought there was another who played down low with crowder, but guess I was wrong

 

[Weez1414]

Rankings have and always will be just rankings. Subjective and hard to get a handle on. Its all about the kid and his work ethic along with potential. Its also up to the coaches to try and figure out which recruit has the best work ethic and "want" to succeed. The list is endless on how many recruits pan out and flame out. With Graham its pretty safe to say he is a natural scorer. He was in high school and now in JUCO. Id take him any day of the week on scoring im not sure on his work ethic. But with the bigs most get there stats on sheer lack of height in JUCO and talent. Im sure theres a long list for other teams but with Cincy Adam H. Cheik, Nyrasuk, Rubles, Whaley, and I know im missing others. All these players averaged double doubles and most were gaudy like 17 and 10, but none with Rubles being close have came close to that. Hell most cant score at all. So ill have to see with Deberry im not sold on anything yet. But bring on Graham. Im still upset Mick missed out on Jon Severe, Davon Reed, and Terrance Samuel. Those are the sharpshooters UC has been missing tragically that open everything else up for offense. Well and slashers to but dont get me started on the offense ran. Back to rankings just how crazy they always are Joel Embiid was ranked 1 spot higher than Jermaine Lawrence. Ones up for player of the year and every award there is and one barely contributed. Nothing against Lawarence I think he will be good just putting rankings in perspective. Also its hard recruiting these kids in high school that why AAU is the mainstream now because alot of them are the "big fish in a little pond" in HS. Too bad they dont play D in AAU.

 

[Bearcatboy]

again, when did i say flop?

you guys can twist what i am saying however you want. people are anointing these guys as starters. all i said was they tend to struggle their first year at uc. but if you want to continue to twist my argument into things i did not say, be my guest.

I don't think they start this year because they are superstar juco's but they will start because they are better than what we have on the roster right now.

 

[dp3113]

JUCO's are almost always more ready to contribute then freshman. It isn't far fetched to assume that DeBerry would start (Williamson, Rubles, Mbodj and Toyloy all started games their first year).

Graham isn't a typical JUCO either (mentioned this earlier but you ignored). He was rated as highly as #25 in his class coming out of high school and was highly sought after then and also now as a JUCO. Most people that cover JUCO recruiting all have stated he can easily be plugged in as a stater as well.

Don't know why you feel the need to point out the obvious (that they may struggle) over and over again...

i asked some poster in the original comment a few pages back if they had seen deberry and graham play because that person declared that deberry and graham were "ready to play college basketball right now." that person had never seen them play, so i tried to caution against declaring jucos as ready to play if they hadn't actually seen them because people often pencil them in as starters and often they often struggle their first year.

after that, people are started arguing against me insinuating i said jucos are flops, that i don't think that deberry and graham are good, that since they are ranked high that means they are ready to play, etc….all of which things i never said or came remotely close to insinuating. as a result, i keep repeating myself to defend against these assumptions, because i never said what these people are implying i said. the only way to defend myself is to restate my original point, not what they choose to interpret what i said as.

 

[dp3113]

I provided a couple JUCO's that came in and did very well and led the team in important stats. You are stating that JUCO's have a hard time adjusting to Cronins system. So who had a hard time adjusting their first year?

Also, is there a link stating that Jones was best JUCO in 15 years?

You are throwing things out there with nothing to support your case.

Like you said with Williamson, somebody has to start. In the post we have all new players so somebody has to step in and contribute right away.

rubles, mbodj, toyloy, hyrcaniuk all struggled. you are right- rubles did some good things his first year. he is one of my favorite players in UC history because of the toughness he displayed this year. but he struggled last year. he shot 33% and averaged 2 turnovers a game. yes, he led the team in boards - but having a team leader only averaging 5.8 boards per game is more of an indictment on your team not having great rebounders than it is on him leading them.

as for the Chris Jones thing - i used to coach for a number of years when i was right out of college and have a number of friends now who stuck with it through the years. two juco assistants - one from a kansas school and one from a florida school told me that about jones.