Tulsa

[cincyguy13]

In my opinion, there is a difference in mid major players.

Guys like eliel nsesome translate to any level because they rebound, defend & play hard.

Guys like Chris Vogt and Rap, don’t translate because they lack those effort and toughness skills while also lacking athletic ability.

Not trolling, do you not see the inconsistency of your argument?

 

[TheLivingLegend]

In my opinion, there is a difference in mid major players.

Guys like eliel nsesome translate to any level because they rebound, defend & play hard.

Guys like Chris Vogt and Rap, don’t translate because they lack those effort and toughness skills while also lacking athletic ability.

Your opinion.. per usual. Is wrong.

 

[justinhub2003]

Your opinion.. per usual. Is wrong.

Ask any scout if defense and rebounding translate to all levels. Almost all with agree.

If add athleticism with rebounding and defensive ability it certainly translates.

Guys who are slow, unathletic and don’t have a high motor will struggle at the high major.

Case in point... Chris Vogt

Now look at elie... his defensive rebounding % was actually higher at UC than Georgia state. But they are close enough to call them the same.


He also offensive rebounded pretty well at UC and then once he stepped down a level, he’s now the 17th best offensive rebounder in the country,


Chris Vogt is an aweful rebounder.

 

[TheLivingLegend]

Yes. With eliel on this team we are national championship bound!

 

[cincyguy13]

Ask any scout if defense and rebounding translate to all levels. Almost all with agree.

If add athleticism with rebounding and defensive ability it certainly translates.

Guys who are slow, unathletic and don’t have a high motor will struggle at the high major.

Case in point... Chris Vogt

Now look at elie... his defensive rebounding % was actually higher at UC than Georgia state. But they are close enough to call them the same.


He also offensive rebounded pretty well at UC and then once he stepped down a level, he’s now the 17th best offensive rebounder in the country,


Chris Vogt is an aweful rebounder.

Vogt sucks, that’s not point. The point was, you guys talk about how loaded the roster was, “so many returning players”, blah blah blah, but don’t mention how every single player except brooks ended up at a mid major. Mid major is also something that you love to discredit and have since brannen was hired But now it’s ok for some reason.

 

[justinhub2003]

Yes. With eliel on this team we are national championship bound!

Not what I said. But with Elie this team defends better, rebounds better and protects the paint better.

Not even sure how thats even up for debate Debate.


Chris Vogt is the worst Big man defender that UC has had in the Huggins/Brannen/Cronin era.


You know it too

 

[cincyguy13]

Ask any scout if defense and rebounding translate to all levels. Almost all with agree.

If add athleticism with rebounding and defensive ability it certainly translates.

Guys who are slow, unathletic and don’t have a high motor will struggle at the high major.

Case in point... Chris Vogt

Now look at elie... his defensive rebounding % was actually higher at UC than Georgia state. But they are close enough to call them the same.


He also offensive rebounded pretty well at UC and then once he stepped down a level, he’s now the 17th best offensive rebounder in the country,


Chris Vogt is an aweful rebounder.

If you are saying Ellie us elite at something? Or at least good. If the madsens are elite shooters, and have value, isn’t the the same thing? Why were you so quick to write off them and call them mid major but Ellie you’re fine with being mid major level.

 

[Bcatfollower]

Not what I said. But with Elie this team defends better, rebounds better and protects the paint better.

Not even sure how thats even up for debate Debate.


Chris Vogt is the worst Big man defender that UC has had in the Huggins/Brannen/Cronin era.


You know it too

Only because kelvin gaines couldn’t even get on the court.

 

[justinhub2003]

If you are saying Ellie us elite at something? Or at least good. If the madsens are elite shooters, and have value, isn’t the the same thing? Why were you so quick to write off them and call them mid major but Ellie you’re fine with being mid major level.

Because my personal belief around modern basketball is that I want toughness, rebounding and defense from my Bigs.

I don't mind them being a little one sided when it comes to skillset.


I think college basketball is won at the guard level. And while you can have a few non defenders in your guard rotation, you need most of them to be 2 way contributors. And if you do have really awful guard defenders then you better have a great rim protecting big.

There is all kinds of defense and rebounding first bigs in the NBA that contribute to winning teams because they have elite guard play.


Elie IS a good/ better than most rebounder. He's 17th in the Nation in offensive rebounding rate right now.


Good roster construction doesn't just mean guys who are skilled offensively at every spot. You need balance. You need a few lockdown defenders like Kevin Johnson.. Not just all scorers.

 

[cincyguy13]

Because my personal belief around modern basketball is that I want toughness, rebounding and defense from my Bigs.

I don't mind them being a little one sided when it comes to skillset.


I think college basketball is won at the guard level. And while you can have a few non defenders in your guard rotation, you need most of them to be 2 way contributors. And if you do have really awful guard defenders then you better have a great rim protecting big.

There is all kinds of defense and rebounding first bigs in the NBA that contribute to winning teams because they have elite guard play.


Elie IS a good/ better than most rebounder. He's 17th in the Nation in offensive rebounding rate right now.


Good roster construction doesn't just mean guys who are skilled offensively at every spot. You need balance. You need a few lockdown defenders like Kevin Johnson.. Not just all scorers.

I don’t care about Ellie. He’s fine, he’s a mid major player. Exactly what you claim you didn’t want but seem to be fine with if cronin got them. This team isn’t going anywhere with or without Ellie. And the roster was loaded with “mid major” players. Things that you didn’t really like until I pointed out

 

[cincyguy13]

I just don’t think it’s fair to blame the roster on brannen. It obviously wasn’t as loaded as it’s being stated.

Plenty of issues, roster isn’t his fault. Some misses yes, no different from other coaches

 

[cincyguy13]

Because my personal belief around modern basketball is that I want toughness, rebounding and defense from my Bigs.

I don't mind them being a little one sided when it comes to skillset.


I think college basketball is won at the guard level. And while you can have a few non defenders in your guard rotation, you need most of them to be 2 way contributors. And if you do have really awful guard defenders then you better have a great rim protecting big.

There is all kinds of defense and rebounding first bigs in the NBA that contribute to winning teams because they have elite guard play.


Elie IS a good/ better than most rebounder. He's 17th in the Nation in offensive rebounding rate right now.


Good roster construction doesn't just mean guys who are skilled offensively at every spot. You need balance. You need a few lockdown defenders like Kevin Johnson.. Not just all scorers.

The game has changed. This isn’t the 90s. It’s very rare that teams win with one or two players that can’t do anything but play defense. That works against lesser competitive but like I said before, good teams don’t care how “tough” you are. We’ve seen that over the years.

 

[justinhub2003]

I don’t care about Ellie. He’s fine, he’s a mid major player. Exactly what you claim you didn’t want but seem to be fine with if cronin got them. This team isn’t going anywhere with or without Ellie. And the roster was loaded with “mid major” players. Things that you didn’t really like until I pointed out

See, what you don’t get is that Cronin had this incredible knack for finding players that no one wanted and turning them into good basketball players.

But literally almost every one minus JD has regressed. That’s a concern. Mick earned the right to recruit some unpolished gems because he had a track record of constant improvement.


Also mick’s mid major recruits were guys with athletic ability. Like they were legit athletes who needed polishing up on the offensive side of the ball.

Brannen will bring in guys who aren’t athletes. The aren’t strong. Like all the practice in the world won’t make them athletes and that’s hurts their ceiling.

 

[cincyguy13]

See, what you don’t get is that Cronin had this incredible knack for finding players that no one wanted and turning them into good basketball players.

But literally almost every one minus JD has regressed. That’s a concern. Mick earned the right to recruit some unpolished gems because he had a track record of constant improvement.


Also mick’s mid major recruits were guys with athletic ability. Like they were legit athletes who needed polishing up on the offensive side of the ball.

Brannen will bring in guys who aren’t athletes. The aren’t strong. Like all the practice in the world won’t make them athletes and that’s hurts their ceiling.

Both are the definition of mid major. Athletes that have no skills, Ellie, none athletes with with some skills. Both won’t get you anywhere when you play a decent team. That’s my point. Let’s move past both. Let’s be better. Brannen is in his second year, at least that’s an excuse, mick had 70% of his roster that went and played at the mid major level in his 12th year. That’s not good, no matter how you slice it. No one wanted these guys at the major level. You don’t see a problem with over half your roster being guys that can’t play at the major level? You still think that roster was loaded?

 

[JoeRunner89]

See, what you don’t get is that Cronin had this incredible knack for finding players that no one wanted and turning them into good basketball players.

But literally almost every one minus JD has regressed. That’s a concern. Mick earned the right to recruit some unpolished gems because he had a track record of constant improvement.


Also mick’s mid major recruits were guys with athletic ability. Like they were legit athletes who needed polishing up on the offensive side of the ball.

Brannen will bring in guys who aren’t athletes. The aren’t strong. Like all the practice in the world won’t make them athletes and that’s hurts their ceiling.

Jhub I feel you. I not understanding how fans can watch respectable product that we've witnessed over the past 30 yrs and not be able to assess our current situation. Vogt coming along with Brannen was a major red flag for me, that and not retaining Brooks and just letting ellie and hardnett walk that of which I believe would of been as impactful or as productive as a tre scott or a gary clark... like you could tell those guys had an ability or a motor that Cronin would of got some production out of those two, hardnett wasnt a highly ranked recruit but he was one of those guys that could of gotten better he had potential but to let him go just to see the likes of a rap or a lahkin is pretty disheartening. Brannen hasn't been making the right choices, theres clearly a flaw within his talent evaluation. Kieth Would of grown last yr well into this yr just with mick lighting a fire under his a**. Last yrs team should of been ranked all year but with Brannen somehow someway they won league and its pretty evident they only did it bc there were 3 more serviceable guys in tre, and the Cumberlands. Kieth doesn't have enough around him this yr, I dont knw how ppl are blaming him for this or that when the supporting cast is lacking. Brannen has to be the guy to turn the light bulb on for these guys unfortunately hes also the very reason why the talent is what it is

 

[JoeRunner89]

Both are the definition of mid major. Athletes that have no skills, Ellie, none athletes with with some skills. Both won’t get you anywhere when you play a decent team. That’s my point. Let’s move past both. Let’s be better. Brannen is in his second year, at least that’s an excuse, mick had 70% of his roster that went and played at the mid major level in his 12th year. That’s not good, no matter how you slice it. No one wanted these guys at the major level. You don’t see a problem with over half your roster being guys that can’t play at the major level? You still think that roster was loaded?

Come on man, you couldn't possibly say Cronin had mid major talent in here dominating the AAC and blowing out John Brannens NKU the year the clashed.. if the talent was so mid major the results would look a lot like this yr

 

[waterhead]

See, what you don’t get is that Cronin had this incredible knack for finding players that no one wanted and turning them into good basketball players.

But literally almost every one minus JD has regressed. That’s a concern. Mick earned the right to recruit some unpolished gems because he had a track record of constant improvement.


Also mick’s mid major recruits were guys with athletic ability. Like they were legit athletes who needed polishing up on the offensive side of the ball.

Brannen will bring in guys who aren’t athletes. The aren’t strong. Like all the practice in the world won’t make them athletes and that’s hurts their ceiling.

Cronin was forced to bring in "unpolished gems" because of his "policy" of not recruiting over vets. How much trouble do you think Cronin would have bringing in a high level recruit with the position already stacked? The answer is he didn't. He could get one decent recruit at a time and that was when there was a spot already open or going to be in like 1 year.

The rest of his recruits was a 50-50 proposition between bad and just playable with a couple of real gems mixed in over time. He had to sit SK for a season because there were vets in front...and none of them were better than SK.

Brannen will recruit over whenever he can land better players. If someone leaves...then we are left with the better players presumably. But we have to wait and see how his guys develop over time. Some will do well and some won't and he will play with next man in.

So far this year I don't like what I am watching....but I do think adjustments will be made. If they are not made...then he is likely not the right coach.

 

[cincyguy13]

Come on man, you couldn't possibly say Cronin had mid major talent in here dominating the AAC and blowing out John Brannens NKU the year the clashed.. if the talent was so mid major the results would look a lot like this yr

You missed the whole point man. The players that were still here when brannen got here, and left, all ended up playing at the mid major level except brooks. If that isn’t the definition of mid major players, players literally playing at the mid major level I don’t know what is. Yes they were mid major players. Obviously there were players that weren’t. Jarron, Keith, Tre.

 

[cincyguy13]

If Dou left right now, where would he be more likely to go? The big East/ big ten, or a MAC school? We need to stop acting like brannen is playing with a full deck. Still should be better I agree

 

[JoeRunner89]

You missed the whole point man. The players that were still here when brannen got here, and left, all ended up playing at the mid major level except brooks. If that isn’t the definition of mid major players, players literally playing at the mid major level I don’t know what is. Yes they were mid major players. Obviously there were players that weren’t. Jarron, Keith, Tre.

No I get what your trying to say but the thing is I just dont agree. Hardnett and ellie are D1 players in this program and under the culture that used to exist. I remember watching both and could understand why Cronin brought them in. Ellie is D1 rebounder and very versatile in guarding the pick and roll something Vogt and rap could never do. Harndett was very skilled for his size a lot of ability/potential but that's what college is for to harness those skills and develop, recruiting rankings are overrated. There are also roles within a team concept everyone doesn't have to shoot or score. This is an era of small ball and monkey see monkey do trend basketball without defined roles or positions which has really robbed the game of its nuances. I never believed in this hack up 30 threes philosophy bc when the shots dont drop or you dont have enough talent like both in our case you lose esp when the defense isn't existant. John Brannen inherited a top 15 team he really did, he didn't keep them together and he hasn't recruited up to snuff. None of it is surprising