UCF Round 2

[cincyguy13]

hmm what's a defense that protects against fouls & protects the paint... oh it also happens to be really effective against teams who can't shoot.

Did we play one possession to test it out? Nope.

Did we try something else? NOPE


Did our guys look gassed and we insisted on a pointless press that literally does nothing except wear our own guys out?

It was odd that he didn’t even try to change anything. It was like he was making a statement but I hope that wasn’t the case. Too late in the season to be making statements

 

[justinhub2003]

It doesn't matter what Jarron asked for, that is the position he is in, he doesn't need to pound his chest and jump around but the dude is lazy sometimes. He was lazy sometimes with Mick, but Mick knew how to hide Jarron. Mick also recruited Jarron and coached Jarron for 3 years. Brannen has coached Jarron 8 months most of which he was hurt. Its no secret they don't like each other, its really not. But you always make this a Jarron vs Brannen thing.... Literally not one person has said its more Jarron's fault than Brannen's… Its on both of them equally. Its on Brannen for continuously putting the ball in Jarron hands when he isn't finishing late in the game, its on Jarron for not boxing out and throwing lazy passes.

Collectively on 2 message boards, people are way more willing to put this loss and frankly this disaster of a season on Jarron Cumberland.


People act like Jarron Doesn't try. The dude is the least athletic on the court and has come up with some game saving blocks. Last night he had one.


I mean, he never got into game shape. So you asking him to pressure defensively for 94 feet, handle the ball from tip to finish, make plays for every one on the team since they rarely score on their own, and then still have enough energy to box out.


I mean if were gonna talk about getting beat defensively... Tre Scott was abused last night. Our rim protection was awful, and he was beat to the rim a bunch of times.


I actually don't remember Jarron being off the dribble all that much last night. I remember us getting guys stuck under the rim and them still making it.



But I don't have the guts to go back and watch that disaster




And with no tourney this year, I don't expect one next year either.



I suspect this is the closest Brannen ever gets to being a top 50 defense in his career at cincinnati. I just hope the offense is good enough to over come it

 

[skyblade]

So Jarron, the guy making 0 dollars is taking the blame for this loss


But you guys think the guy making over a million a year shouldn’t take any?

Johnny Dawkins abused John Brannen last night. He exploited his aweful defensive system and made it look pitiful. Does Brannen adjust ? Nope. He’s as stubborn as our last coach

Yup, we see the same themes we saw early in the season. It's not like Dawkins invented some brand new way of beating our defense. It's the same way it's been all season; pull Vogt away from the basket with a big who can shoot threes, have other guys drive to the basket, get easy layups because we don't play help defense. Blame Vogt, blame the guys for getting beat off the dribble, but in the end you have to blame Brannen for refusing to adjust. It seems the only player we really focus on providing help to defensively is Vogt.

The other thing I complained about early in the season is also coming back to bite. Failing to develop our depth. We played multiple early season Q3/Q4 games where we won by 10+ and our starters played 30+ minutes.

Brannen's substitution patterns are also terrible. He puts in 3/4 subs sround the 14 minute mark of the first half and gives them 4/5 minutes, then plays the starters basically the entire second half. In addition our press and faster pace don't give guys the time to rest that Cronin's offense/defense did. I know we got mad at Cronin for pulling guys too quickly, but he at least gave the backups minutes and rested the starters. With our current rotation we aren't going anywhere in the tournament.

Yes Diarra makes mistakes, but he also makes some good plays and I'd guess his +- was close to even. Same is true for Davenport. Vogt on the other hand has been nullified on offense (it seems like teams have taken a page out of the Houston playbook of a quick, hard double and Vogt doesn't handle it well), doesn't rebound well and doesn't defend well, but Brannen gives him every minute he can.

You have to give Diarra, Harvey or Davenport minutes to give the other guys a rest.

If/when we lose another game (will be to WSU if we continue to play like we have lately), it's probably worth cutting way back on starters minutes and giving Davenport, Diarra and Harvey 15-20 minutes per game. At that point our only hope to make the NCAA tournament will be winning the AAC tournament anyway and to do that we need to develop our depth as much as possible. And if we don't make the NCAA tournament at least we will be getting guys ready for next year.

 

[justinhub2003]

It was odd that he didn’t even try to change anything. It was like he was making a statement but I hope that wasn’t the case. Too late in the season to be making statements

And considering that he has never been a good defensive coach, Id rather him be a guy who switches his style based on personnel and Based on game situation.

So far, he is absolutely unwilling to part ways from a defense that frankly doesn't work at this level.

Hell it didn't work at his old level.


I've said this before but at NKU, Brannen lost most of his games due to dreadful defensive effort and execution and then Free throws.


Seems familiar right. I said these things are trends with his coaching style. People brushed it off. Here we are 17-9 off the bubble because of poor defensive effort and poor free throw shooting.


Now you have to travel to frickin Texas, where 2 of the best team in the league have an advantage and try to be a bid stealer to ruin someone else's season who earned it.



Like I said..at least we get a few more home games potentially. BUT we better win the NIT

 

[cincyguy13]

And considering that he has never been a good defensive coach, Id rather him be a guy who switches his style based on personnel and Based on game situation.

So far, he is absolutely unwilling to part ways from a defense that frankly doesn't work at this level.

Hell it didn't work at his old level.


I've said this before but at NKU, Brannen lost most of his games due to dreadful defensive effort and execution and then Free throws.


Seems familiar right. I said these things are trends with his coaching style. People brushed it off. Here we are 17-9 off the bubble because of poor defensive effort and poor free throw shooting.


Now you have to travel to frickin Texas, where 2 of the best team in the league have an advantage and try to be a bid stealer to ruin someone else's season who earned it.



Like I said..at least we get a few more home games potentially. BUT we better win the NIT

You’re right about everything. Everyone should listen to everything you say. Are you ever wrong?

 

[cincyguy13]

Yup, we see the same themes we saw early in the season. It's not like Dawkins invented some brand new way of beating our defense. It's the same way it's been all season; pull Vogt away from the basket with a big who can shoot threes, have other guys drive to the basket, get easy layups because we don't play help defense. Blame Vogt, blame the guys for getting beat off the dribble, but in the end you have to blame Brannen for refusing to adjust. It seems the only player we really focus on providing help to defensively is Vogt.

The other thing I complained about early in the season is also coming back to bite. Failing to develop our depth. We played multiple early season Q3/Q4 games where we won by 10+ and our starters played 30+ minutes.

Brannen's substitution patterns are also terrible. He puts in 3/4 subs sround the 14 minute mark of the first half and gives them 4/5 minutes, then plays the starters basically the entire second half. In addition our press and faster pace don't give guys the time to rest that Cronin's offense/defense did. I know we got mad at Cronin for pulling guys too quickly, but he at least gave the backups minutes and rested the starters. With our current rotation we aren't going anywhere in the tournament.

Yes Diarra makes mistakes, but he also makes some good plays and I'd guess his +- was close to even. Same is true for Davenport. Vogt on the other hand has been nullified on offense (it seems like teams have taken a page out of the Houston playbook of a quick, hard double and Vogt doesn't handle it well), doesn't rebound well and doesn't defend well, but Brannen gives him every minute he can.

You have to give Diarra, Harvey or Davenport minutes to give the other guys a rest.

If/when we lose another game (will be to WSU if we continue to play like we have lately), it's probably worth cutting way back on starters minutes and giving Davenport, Diarra and Harvey 15-20 minutes per game. At that point our only hope to make the NCAA tournament will be winning the AAC tournament anyway and to do that we need to develop our depth as much as possible. And if we don't make the NCAA tournament at least we will be getting guys ready for next year.

After the last 5 games, probably not the best time for the diarra argument. Might want to save that for when he’s not the worst player on the floor.

 

[cincyguy13]

Collectively on 2 message boards, people are way more willing to put this loss and frankly this disaster of a season on Jarron Cumberland.


People act like Jarron Doesn't try. The dude is the least athletic on the court and has come up with some game saving blocks. Last night he had one.


I mean, he never got into game shape. So you asking him to pressure defensively for 94 feet, handle the ball from tip to finish, make plays for every one on the team since they rarely score on their own, and then still have enough energy to box out.


I mean if were gonna talk about getting beat defensively... Tre Scott was abused last night. Our rim protection was awful, and he was beat to the rim a bunch of times.


I actually don't remember Jarron being off the dribble all that much last night. I remember us getting guys stuck under the rim and them still making it.



But I don't have the guts to go back and watch that disaster




And with no tourney this year, I don't expect one next year either.



I suspect this is the closest Brannen ever gets to being a top 50 defense in his career at cincinnati. I just hope the offense is good enough to over come it

So you’re saying Jarron is trying when he just doesn’t box out at all? Like I said, it’s ok to criticize a player for not playing well if they aren’t playing well. He gets a lot of criticism but also gets praise when he plays well. That’s comes with being the best player on the team. Whether he ask for it or not.

 

[waterhead]

As of right now this is all on the coach. He wasn't making adjustments on either end. He seems to think he's between a rock and a hard place with expecting effort...I get that...but it's his job to remedy the situation.

Why is it that we can get our back's against the wall and make comebacks? because we usually play harder and with more focus when that happens. That effort and focus has to be there for 40 minutes. It's the very reason we have had 7 OT games and 3 more within a 2 point bucket. If you only give max effort when the game is on the line...you will end up in close games every time.

That has to stop. It may already be too late. If we can't defend the ball we need to switch to zone...what other choice do we have? Our ball and player movement on offense has been bad...even though we are trying to play through Jarron. The other teams have figured out a plan a few games ago. Time for plan B.

 

[cincrulz11]

To be fair, It’s hard to stay in front of good players. They why “help defense” is a thing, Brannen could have switched it up. Maybe after the 20th uncontested layup they made.

but they aren't good players. thats the thing. thats why i said those guys NEVER should have beat our guys off the bounce.

we have stopped much better players with the defense we ran last night.


people say zone zone zone. ucf has 2 sharp shooters and we couldn't stop any penetration. Milon is a 40% career 3 point shooter on over 500 attempts and Green is over 40% as a freshman and over 45% in conference.


the idea that ucf doesn't have shooters is flat out wrong.

 

[justinhub2003]

So you’re saying Jarron is trying when he just doesn’t box out at all? Like I said, it’s ok to criticize a player for not playing well if they aren’t playing well. He gets a lot of criticism but also gets praise when he plays well. That’s comes with being the best player on the team. Whether he ask for it or not.

I don't blame players for losses.

Especially college athletes.


Not my thing.

 

[justinhub2003]

but they aren't good players. thats the thing. thats why i said those guys NEVER should have beat our guys off the bounce.

we have stopped much better players with the defense we ran last night.


people say zone zone zone. ucf has 2 sharp shooters and we couldn't stop any penetration. Milon is a 40% career 3 point shooter on over 500 attempts and Green is over 40% as a freshman and over 45% in conference.


the idea that ucf doesn't have shooters is flat out wrong.

They are 250th in the country in 3 point shooting. I'll take my chances.


in conference they are 4th.. which makes you think they are good. Then you realize 4th place just means 33% from 3.




I mean UCF Zoned us and we shoot better as team than they do

 

[cincyguy13]

I don't blame players for losses.

Especially college athletes.


Not my thing.

Ok awesome. Everyone doesn’t have to be like you. I blame everyone that needs blamed.

 

[skyblade]

Yes Jarron the guy who could of left last year to make money but chose to come back and "play for 0 dollars"... Brannen cant force you to box out or not make a lazy pass. No one is saying Brannen wasn't out coached because he was but Brannen is not in a position to pull guys for not hustling, we have no depth so it forces Brannens hand when guys don't hustle because he has no choice but to leave them in.

So yes when your leader, your team caption, your superstar, bearcat great, conference player of the year is lazy, tired, hurt, bad game, whatever it was doesn't show up it effects the whole team, like it or not that's the position he is in. Just like a quarterback, all the glory when you win and a lot of the blame when you lose. This was a total team loss last night, its on everyone involved.

You can't coach effort, but you can absolutely coach accountability. If a guy doesn't give effort, you take him out of the game. Even if that means putting in walk-on's to prove a point.

You can also change your scheme up to try to let your players rest during the game. Cronin at times went as far as having Cumberland stand at mid-court and the rest of the team play 4v4 to give Cumberland some on court rest. For Brannen, playing zone and cutting back on the full-court press would be some easy options.

The lack of depth is because Brannen didn't work to develop the depth early in the season and continues not to. I guess we could add in that he forced out Hardnett who could have provided some more depth.

 

[cincyguy13]

but they aren't good players. thats the thing. thats why i said those guys NEVER should have beat our guys off the bounce.

we have stopped much better players with the defense we ran last night.


people say zone zone zone. ucf has 2 sharp shooters and we couldn't stop any penetration. Milon is a 40% career 3 point shooter on over 500 attempts and Green is over 40% as a freshman and over 45% in conference.


the idea that ucf doesn't have shooters is flat out wrong.

The effort wasn’t great. I agree. But as a coach, if you see that, switch something up. See if that gives them a spark. You don’t do the same thing over and over.

 

[cincrulz11]

As of right now this is all on the coach. He wasn't making adjustments on either end. He seems to think he's between a rock and a hard place with expecting effort...I get that...but it's his job to remedy the situation.

Why is it that we can get our back's against the wall and make comebacks? because we usually play harder and with more focus when that happens. That effort and focus has to be there for 40 minutes. It's the very reason we have had 7 OT games and 3 more within a 2 point bucket. If you only give max effort when the game is on the line...you will end up in close games every time.

That has to stop. It may already be too late. If we can't defend the ball we need to switch to zone...what other choice do we have? Our ball and player movement on offense has been bad...even though we are trying to play through Jarron. The other teams have figured out a plan a few games ago. Time for plan B.

again it doesn't matter what the defense is. if the effort is like that its gonna get carved up.


giving up layups is frustrating, and so is watching 40% 3 point shooters get wide open look after wide open look.


no defense will work with effort like what we saw last night. Green and Milon were already 4-9 on 3's.



at the end of the day a guy like Tre Scott has to look in the mirror and say im not going to let some no name guy drop 20 in my face.



when we do these comebacks you can see the effort increase right? and the defense plays better right?


A team with a handful of Srs and upperclassmen shouldn't have to be told whats at stake. Effort shouldn't be a problem. I'm willing to bet in 3 years it won't be.

 

[waterhead]

Take a look at our last 5 games on T-rank game score. Each of our games since WSU has gotten significantly worse. Seems like we are tired or uninspired. Brannen has to light a fire...and I am sure he has tried...but he needs a new strategy if we have any hope at all.

Every player should be required to look Tre in the eye and say...I promise to give the effort that you do from here on out. How does Tre get 21 rebounds? because he is not standing on two feet hoping the ball drops in his hands.

 

[cincyguy13]

You can't coach effort, but you can absolutely coach accountability. If a guy doesn't give effort, you take him out of the game. Even if that means putting in walk-on's to prove a point.

You can also change your scheme up to try to let your players rest during the game. Cronin at times went as far as having Cumberland stand at mid-court and the rest of the team play 4v4 to give Cumberland some on court rest. For Brannen, playing zone and cutting back on the full-court press would be some easy options.

The lack of depth is because Brannen didn't work to develop the depth early in the season and continues not to. I guess we could add in that he forced out Hardnett who could have provided some more depth.

To the depth point. He’s given diarra plenty of chances and he has regressed. Something that you have admitted. Harvey, Davenport and Jaevin all get minutes. We only have 10 players. One is McNeal, who is terrible, diarra is a mess at times and the others get minutes. There’s our depth.

 

[waterhead]

again it doesn't matter what the defense is. if the effort is like that its gonna get carved up.


giving up layups is frustrating, and so is watching 40% 3 point shooters get wide open look after wide open look.


no defense will work with effort like what we saw last night. Green and Milon were already 4-9 on 3's.



at the end of the day a guy like Tre Scott has to look in the mirror and say im not going to let some no name guy drop 20 in my face.



when we do these comebacks you can see the effort increase right? and the defense plays better right?


A team with a handful of Srs and upperclassmen shouldn't have to be told whats at stake. Effort shouldn't be a problem. I'm willing to bet in 3 years it won't be.

Tre isn't getting beat for lack of effort. We are guarding too tight and they are all getting beat. We have no back up help at the rim. WTF are we doing? back off and let them shoot long 2's or 3's 5 feet behind the arc.

 

[cincyguy13]

Take a look at our last 5 games on T-rank game score. Each of our games since WSU has gotten significantly worse. Seems like we are tired or uninspired. Brannen has to light a fire...and I am sure he has tried...but he needs a new strategy if we have any hope at all.

Every player should be required to look Tre in the eye and say...I promise to give the effort that you do from here on out. How does Tre get 21 rebounds? because he is not standing on two feet hoping the ball drops in his hands.

Yeah, something seems different. Maybe it’s just that Jarron is hurt and it makes the whole team look different. Who knows, but they look uninspired

 

[skyblade]

but they aren't good players. thats the thing. thats why i said those guys NEVER should have beat our guys off the bounce.

we have stopped much better players with the defense we ran last night.

Sounds good in theory, but after the 5th, or 10th or 15th uncontested layup, you can't just dig in and say it should work, so I'm not changing. Our defense quite clearly wasn't working and I'd add that against teams with a 5 who can shoot and thus pull Vogt out of the paint, our defense rarely works.

As the coach, Brannen's job is to adjust. Maybe zone wouldn't have worked, but at least we wouldn't have continued to fail over and over in the exact same way. Brannen's job is to change things up - either the defense or the players playing it - until he finds something that works. Brannen - not for the first time this season - made no changes and once again it led to a loss.