2016-2017 Season

[L-T]

Those were the final rankings for the 2016 classes, not for the upcoming 2017 class.

That just goes to illustrate the fact that there are many non-power 5 teams beating our recruiting brains out, as well as beating many P5 Schools as well. Huggs had no problem out-recruiting the power schools. Come on....W. Kentucky, Xavier, Butler, Harvard, St. Louis? It's a joke that one of the all time greatest basketball programs can't out-recruit all of these programs, as well as most of the P5 Programs. It's not the landscape. It's the coach.

 

[UCBearcats]

That just goes to illustrate the fact that there are many non-power 5 teams beating our recruiting brains out, as well as beating many P5 Schools as well. Huggs had no problem out-recruiting the power schools. Come on....W. Kentucky, Xavier, Butler, Harvard, St. Louis? It's a joke that one of the all time greatest basketball programs can't out-recruit all of these programs, as well as most of the P5 Programs. It's not the landscape. It's the coach.

Funny you brought up Huggs, Mick's class was actually ranked higher on the list I looked at than WVU's class. I believe they came in at 65th.

Personally I'm not too much concerned with rankings, if Mick develops his guys and gets them to play in his system (which is basically nonexistent on the offensive end) then we'll see how it all pans out. I'd rather look back at a recruiting class 2 years later and see how the guys are actually playing than worry so much abut projections. Projections typically mean nothing unless you're Duke or Kentucky and you're loading up on legit one and done guys, UC has never been at that caliber and probably never will be. The fact that Mick's highest ranked recruit of all time is Jermaine Lawrence should tell you everything you need to know about recruiting rankings. Lance was more highly rated but Mick didn't recruit him, he just fell to us when KU pulled his scholarship, people forget that.

Recruiting rankings for individual players are completely worthless 99.9% of the time. It's like Mock Drafts or Bracketology, you'd be hard pressed to find a more inexact science. It's something fun for the fans to talk about and I enjoy them but I think people also need to realize that it's not worth getting upset over something that is completely subjective and made up.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Funny you brought up Huggs, Mick's class was actually ranked higher on the list I looked at than WVU's class. I believe they came in at 65th.

Personally I'm not too much concerned with rankings, if Mick develops his guys and gets them to play in his system (which is basically nonexistent on the offensive end) then we'll see how it all pans out. I'd rather look back at a recruiting class 2 years later and see how the guys are actually playing than worry so much abut projections. Projections typically mean nothing unless you're Duke or Kentucky and you're loading up on legit one and done guys, UC has never been at that caliber and probably never will be. The fact that Mick's highest ranked recruit of all time is Jermaine Lawrence should tell you everything you need to know about recruiting rankings. Lance was more highly rated but Mick didn't recruit him, he just fell to us when KU pulled his scholarship, people forget that.

Recruiting rankings for individual players are completely worthless 99.9% of the time. It's like Mock Drafts or Bracketology, you'd be hard pressed to find a more inexact science. It's something fun for the fans to talk about and I enjoy them but I think people also need to realize that it's not worth getting upset over something that is completely subjective and made up.

Ehhhhh

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

For the record, I'm not as upset with recruiting as others. I just hate excuses. Especially when they don't apply to other schools in the same situation.

Jake I based my comment on the info Chad posted on here yesterday. He got the info right from the kids and handlers. Come to your own conclusion. As stated many times I like our program and the job the coach has done. I don't need to make excuses. I could care if you Agee with me or not. It's not my job to change your mind.

 

[2bearcatdad]

There is a disconnect here.

If Cronin sucks as a recruiter, then he has to be a great coach because we're essentially at top 30-35 program and his recruiting classes are outside the top 50.

If he can't coach, then he must get good talent to overcome his lack of coaching.

I'm not sure you can argue that he sucks on both sides of the coin.

 

[L-T]

Funny you brought up Huggs, Mick's class was actually ranked higher on the list I looked at than WVU's class. I believe they came in at 65th.

Personally I'm not too much concerned with rankings, if Mick develops his guys and gets them to play in his system (which is basically nonexistent on the offensive end) then we'll see how it all pans out. I'd rather look back at a recruiting class 2 years later and see how the guys are actually playing than worry so much abut projections. Projections typically mean nothing unless you're Duke or Kentucky and you're loading up on legit one and done guys, UC has never been at that caliber and probably never will be. The fact that Mick's highest ranked recruit of all time is Jermaine Lawrence should tell you everything you need to know about recruiting rankings. Lance was more highly rated but Mick didn't recruit him, he just fell to us when KU pulled his scholarship, people forget that.

Recruiting rankings for individual players are completely worthless 99.9% of the time. It's like Mock Drafts or Bracketology, you'd be hard pressed to find a more inexact science. It's something fun for the fans to talk about and I enjoy them but I think people also need to realize that it's not worth getting upset over something that is completely subjective and made up.

But in the case of Mick Cronin, recruiting rankings are dead-on. 40-70ish every year says 8 to 12 seed....at-large bids annually, out of the tournament after one game, 2 at the most....no league championships, no tourney championships. We'll see if 2016/2017 is any different. We have a lot of nice measurables to hold the coach to....AAC POY, multiple 1st team all-league players, picked to win the AAC, ranked in many polls and magazines. These are all things that the naysayers have asked for and it appears he has us at that point for a change. It will be very easy to measure the success of this season. I'll be the first to give him credit if the season plays out as it has been predicted.....and then he needs to maintain it into the future.

 

[L-T]

There is a disconnect here.

If Cronin sucks as a recruiter, then he has to be a great coach because we're essentially at top 30-35 program and his recruiting classes are outside the top 50.

If he can't coach, then he must get good talent to overcome his lack of coaching.

I'm not sure you can argue that he sucks on both sides of the coin.

First of all, a program historically ranked anywhere between about 9th to 17th all-time, should never spend a decade ranked in the 30s or worse...and should not struggle to recruit. We'll never really know how good of a coach that he is because he can't seem to recruit top talent. We certainly know that he can't coach offense at all, so you're certainly not a great coach when you can't coach 50% of the game pretty much in any season.

 

[UCBearcats]

There is a disconnect here.

If Cronin sucks as a recruiter, then he has to be a great coach because we're essentially at top 30-35 program and his recruiting classes are outside the top 50.

If he can't coach, then he must get good talent to overcome his lack of coaching.

I'm not sure you can argue that he sucks on both sides of the coin.

I don't think he sucks as a recruiter, never said that. He's a mediocre recruiter and a mediocre coach.

He's great at coaching players on the defensive end of the court but miserable on offense so it averages out to mediocre. Because of the style and brand of basketball he coaches and recruits for he actually puts up above average results so in that regard you could certainly give him a lot of credit.

The problem I have is that he doesn't put his teams in a position to be great or do anything very remarkable.

Specifically as it relates to recruiting I'm just pointing out that he could do a lot better. To make excuses for him to somehow justify why he can't is ridiculous.

It all boils back down to the same argument we always have here. If you're happy with not winning conference championships or being highly ranked but feel satisfied with squeaking into the tourney every year then you're probably very satisfied with Mick. If you're not then you will probably voice your displeasure.

I'm not so I do........what causes most of these arguments is the defensive nature of some folks on this board who refuse to accept any sort of criticism that is directed at coach.

 

[Madman81]

First of all, a program historically ranked anywhere between about 9th to 17th all-time, should never spend a decade ranked in the 30s or worse...and should not struggle to recruit. We'll never really know how good of a coach that he is because he can't seem to recruit top talent. We certainly know that he can't coach offense at all, so you're certainly not a great coach when you can't coach 50% of the game pretty much in any season.

when i was a little girl, frankfurters only cost a nickel

 

[Bearcat22]

I don't think he sucks as a recruiter, never said that. He's a mediocre recruiter and a mediocre coach.

He's great at coaching players on the defensive end of the court but miserable on offense so it averages out to mediocre. Because of the style and brand of basketball he coaches and recruits for he actually puts up above average results so in that regard you could certainly give him a lot of credit.

The problem I have is that he doesn't put his teams in a position to be great or do anything very remarkable.

Specifically as it relates to recruiting I'm just pointing out that he could do a lot better. To make excuses for him to somehow justify why he can't is ridiculous.

It all boils back down to the same argument we always have here. If you're happy with not winning conference championships or being highly ranked but feel satisfied with squeaking into the tourney every year then you're probably very satisfied with Mick. If you're not then you will probably voice your displeasure.

I'm not so I do........what causes most of these arguments is the defensive nature of some folks on this board who refuse to accept any sort of criticism that is directed at coach.

I'm not sure about that. It seems he's had enough time and recruiting classes for us to know what to expect from a Cronin recruiting effort. I don't mean it that to be denigrating about his effort or the players that he gets. I get that we want higher ranked recruits. I don't get people being surprised when it doesn't happen.

 

[UCBearcats]

I'm not sure about that. It seems he's had enough time and recruiting classes for us to know what to expect from a Cronin recruiting effort. I don't mean it that to be denigrating about his effort or the players that he gets. I get that we want higher ranked recruits. I don't get people being surprised when it doesn't happen.

That's understandable and you're right.......people shouldn't be surprised when it doesn't happen. I'm not really worried about the rankings myself, I like to judge based on how the players perform on the court once they're actually here. When I say he could do better here's what I mean specifically. I think he recruits too many lanky athletic guys who aren't very good basketball players. They fit his idea of a winning system because they're long and can get deflections on defense but they wind up being way more harmful on the offensive side of the floor than they are helpful on defense. I also think he could recruit much better shooters than he does today, if he was willing to sacrifice some of that athleticism to get a couple kids on the roster who were knock down shooters I think that would help the team as a whole. Let's be honest, the kids who come in and can lock down D from day 1, shoot, pass and dunk are the one and doners and Mick ain't getting those kids.

What I take issue with is the notion that Mick somehow can't recruit players that ultimately perform better on the court because the deck is stacked against him. It's an excuse and it's simply not true.

I love having a rational back and forth debate. It's much more enjoyable when someone actually fires back with a tangible thought than just an excuse or some stats about Bob Huggins tenure 12 years ago.

 

[Bearcat22]

That's understandable and you're right.......people shouldn't be surprised when it doesn't happen. I'm not really worried about the rankings myself, I like to judge based on how the players perform on the court once they're actually here. When I say he could do better here's what I mean specifically. I think he recruits too many lanky athletic guys who aren't very good basketball players. They fit his idea of a winning system because they're long and can get deflections on defense but they wind up being way more harmful on the offensive side of the floor than they are helpful on defense. I also think he could recruit much better shooters than he does today, if he was willing to sacrifice some of that athleticism to get a couple kids on the roster who were knock down shooters I think that would help the team as a whole. Let's be honest, the kids who come in and can lock down D from day 1, shoot, pass and dunk are the one and doners and Mick ain't getting those kids.

What I take issue with is the notion that Mick somehow can't recruit players that ultimately perform better on the court because the deck is stacked against him. It's an excuse and it's simply not true.

I love having a rational back and forth debate. It's much more enjoyable when someone actually fires back with a tangible thought than just an excuse or some stats about Bob Huggins tenure 12 years ago.

I agree with you. Mick is his own worst enemy sometimes with his dogmatic coaching philosophies. I think it creates self-imposed limitations on the players he pursues. His comfort zone, especially when it gets to conference play, seems to be the grind it out gritty defensive effort. His recruiting usually reflects that.

I enjoy the back and forth also.

 

[UCBearcats]

I agree with you. Mick is his own worst enemy sometimes with his dogmatic coaching philosophies. I think it creates self-imposed limitations on the players he pursues. His comfort zone, especially when it gets to conference play, seems to be the grind it out gritty defensive effort. His recruiting usually reflects that.

I enjoy the back and forth also.

I feel like every year we start the season playing the type of basketball many of us want to see but we do it against the cupcakes. Once we get into a tough game and especially in conference play Mick coaches back to his comfort zone. I really hope this season is different because I actually think Mick has some different talent on this team than we've seen in the past. My biggest concerns though are depth and Mick's coaching as to why I think this season will be like so many others.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I feel like every year we start the season playing the type of basketball many of us want to see but we do it against the cupcakes. Once we get into a tough game and especially in conference play Mick coaches back to his comfort zone. I really hope this season is different because I actually think Mick has some different talent on this team than we've seen in the past. My biggest concerns though are depth and Mick's coaching as to why I think this season will be like so many others.

Things that may make this year different:

-We aren't preaching uptempo. Last year we got our hopes up for a new style. A lot of us became very jaded bc of the way things changed, as you mention, when "tougher" games started. This year I don't have any illusions about the speed in which we'll primarily play.
-Sounds like a contradiction to what I just said above, but Jenifer getting real minutes could provide a spark. We may not be uptempo, but we do have another option running things. Kind of like the smash and dash backfields in football. We can give teams different looks.
-We don't feel forced to feed the post. That doesn't mean we shouldn't. It doesn't mean we won't. It doesn't mean we don't have guys who can score in that way...but our personnel screams spacing. Last year we tried very hard, especially early in games, to get Ellis going. He just didn't turn out to be as efficient with his touches as we all hoped. Doesn't appear that we have a go-to player with as glaring of deficiencies.

Tonight is the night we can start to get a glimpse of what's to come. This team may need a few weeks to gel and hit their stride, especially with Evans getting a late start. But although I'm skeptical and downright afraid to get too excited, I do like the promise that this group has.

 

[#BearcatNation]

But in the case of Mick Cronin, recruiting rankings are dead-on. 40-70ish every year says 8 to 12 seed....at-large bids annually, out of the tournament after one game, 2 at the most....no league championships, no tourney championships. We'll see if 2016/2017 is any different. We have a lot of nice measurables to hold the coach to....AAC POY, multiple 1st team all-league players, picked to win the AAC, ranked in many polls and magazines. These are all things that the naysayers have asked for and it appears he has us at that point for a change. It will be very easy to measure the success of this season. I'll be the first to give him credit if the season plays out as it has been predicted.....and then he needs to maintain it into the future.

Might want to work on your math again...if his recruiting rankings are 40-70 every year (I didn't look them up -- just going by what you said), then we've finished better than those every year.

2011 - 6 seed = #21-24
2012 - 6 seed = #21-24
2013 - 10 seed = #37-40
2014 - 5 seed = #17-20
2015 - 8 seed = #29-32
2016 - 9 seed = #33-36

In the last 6 years, we've never finished outside the top 40, so no, a recruiting class ranked #40-70 is not "dead-on" to where UC finishes.

 

[GoCats88]

Might want to work on your math again...if his recruiting rankings are 40-70 every year (I didn't look them up -- just going by what you said), then we've finished better than those every year.

2011 - 6 seed = #21-24
2012 - 6 seed = #21-24
2013 - 10 seed = #37-40
2014 - 5 seed = #17-20
2015 - 8 seed = #29-32
2016 - 9 seed = #33-36

In the last 6 years, we've never finished outside the top 40, so no, a recruiting class ranked #40-70 is not "dead-on" to where UC finishes.

Right lol

 

[L-T]

Might want to work on your math again...if his recruiting rankings are 40-70 every year (I didn't look them up -- just going by what you said), then we've finished better than those every year.

2011 - 6 seed = #21-24
2012 - 6 seed = #21-24
2013 - 10 seed = #37-40
2014 - 5 seed = #17-20
2015 - 8 seed = #29-32
2016 - 9 seed = #33-36

In the last 6 years, we've never finished outside the top 40, so no, a recruiting class ranked #40-70 is not "dead-on" to where UC finishes.

Thanks for showing us the deterioration. After his 1st 2 trips and averaging a 6 seed, he's followed that up with 4 years averaging an 8 seed, including 3 first round losses. Then he holds us hostage with his UNLV DOG AND PONY SHOW. And yes, I can do the math....and did the math. That's why I said "ish". I don't know what his classes are ranked. I just know they're never near the top 25 or 30. Always just mediocre. His recruiting is mediocre. His coaching is mediocre. Our seeds are mediocre.

Actually, to be exact....1st two years averaged a 6 seed, next 2 years averaged a 7.5 seed, and the last two years an 8.5 seed. Down, down, down.

 

[ZCat]

I feel like every year we start the season playing the type of basketball many of us want to see but we do it against the cupcakes. Once we get into a tough game and especially in conference play Mick coaches back to his comfort zone. I really hope this season is different because I actually think Mick has some different talent on this team than we've seen in the past. My biggest concerns though are depth and Mick's coaching as to why I think this season will be like so many others.

Last night on the pregame radio show, Coach Antwan Jackson said they weren't able to practice fully, for a bit ( couple weeks?) D/t not having enough bodies. Players are healthy now and can go full bore. That was sad. Gotta have a full roster being walk-ons.

 

[UCalum08]

I know yesterday was a good start and we played well. Im not here to be negative towards our offense but something still doesn't sit well with me I guess.

My concern is it seems we still stall on offense. Play horizontal around the 3pt line instead of vertical towards the basket. Plenty of times we had to take a desperation 3 bc the shot clock was low and we did nothing with the ball. It seems we really still struggle to have any player beat his man off the dribble straight up.

Am I wrong for thinking this? It's not that I wasn't pleased with the offense yesterday but I think when we play better competition some things we got away with yesterday, won't fly.

 

[GoCats88]

Can we just take a minute and thank god it's college basketball season lol