Game Thread: UC vs (18)OSU 11/6/2019

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I agree Brannen isn't stupid. All along he's said he wants guys like Keith. Take that for what it's worth. I don't care how good Jarron could be, but remember Jarron was a wildcard. So he needs to kiss his entitlement good bye. I could see Brannen moving on from Jarron, because he could ultimately be a cancer to the young team.

Brannen runs a Pro Offense, Jarron should have gone "G" League if he wanted to feel special. Play to the system, or take a seat. Jarron Cumberland will not define Brannen's tenure at UC. Brannen will, and I like that about him.

Brannen has operated this entire time like Cumberland would not return, he comes back to UC, and that's a priviledge? lol

Remember when Cronin took over, D. Vaughn was just a body, although he was the best player.
 
If a team of (See below) can make the tournament, I have the upmost confidence this team can..... This team went 22-11.

C- Octavious Ellis
F- Shaq Thomas
F- Gary Clark (Freshman)
G- Farad Cobb
G- Troy Caupain (Sophmore)
…………………………………………………..
Jermaine Sanders
Quadri Moore
Kevin Johnson
Coreontae Deberry
Ge'Lawn Guyn

Yes I know the schedule this year is much harder than it was that year and I know the conference is better now than it was in 2014-2015. And Yes I know its not just about making the tournament with this team, we all want to see a run. Lets give it time. We SHOULD win the next 7 games counting the two addition games we would play in the paradise jam or whatever its called. Should be 7-1 going into Xavier. Lets re evaluate then.
 
If a team of (See below) can make the tournament, I have the upmost confidence this team can..... This team went 22-11.

C- Octavious Ellis
F- Shaq Thomas
F- Gary Clark (Freshman)
G- Farad Cobb
G- Troy Caupain (Sophmore)
…………………………………………………..
Jermaine Sanders
Quadri Moore
Kevin Johnson
Coreontae Deberry
Ge'Lawn Guyn

Yes I know the schedule this year is much harder than it was that year and I know the conference is better now than it was in 2014-2015. And Yes I know its not just about making the tournament with this team, we all want to see a run. Lets give it time. We SHOULD win the next 7 games counting the two addition games we would play in the paradise jam or whatever its called. Should be 7-1 going into Xavier. Lets re evaluate then.

That team would beat the brakes off these current guys.
 
I missed the game live, watched the replay though.

If Cumberland is just a body on this team, than this team isn't going to the NCAA tournament. Cumberland is the only complete offensive player on the team and it stood out during pick-and-rolls. When we tried to use Vogt/Sorolla in a pick and roll with McNeal or Williams, Wesson would back off and dare them to shoot the 3. When it was with Jaevin, he'd step up and dare Jaevin to drive by him. Jarron is the only player on the team who is enough of a threat to drive or shoot to make the pick-and-roll effective and that seems to be a major part of the offense.

As others have said, we had more movement offensively, but most of the time it felt like we weren't going anywhere. As long as OSU didn't miss a rotation on a backcut, we didn't have much on offense other than Jarron driving to the basket. We took a lot of bad threes and it's the main reason our percentage was so low.

Our two biggest weaknesses seem to be lack of depth and our centers. We only went 7 deep last night. This early in the season and without many opportunities to rest (unlike the Cronin offense which would at times let the shot-clock run down on offense to let guys rest) we were tired out. We need to be able to go 8-9 deep at least or the 94-feet both ways is going to fail.

The centers looked solid on offense, though I have doubts about how often we had them outside the three point arc. Wesson was able to drop off and clog the lane when Sorolla/Vogt were outside the arc. I'm not really sure what the purpose of that was, but it seems to be part of the offense.

Vogt's biggest weakness looking at his stats last year was his foul trouble. I know it's early, but the exhibition game and OSU game make me think foul trouble is going to be an issue all season (and possible his entire career). He lacks body control on defense and brings his arm down too far when blocking shots. Besides that I think he could be a 15-20 minute per game guy, but as is I think he is below average. He wasn't great on defense or rebounding, but also wasn't terrible. Pretty average overall, but fouls make him below average.

Sorolla I've posted all off-season is a terrible rebounder. He continued to be terrible at rebounding. He doesn't pursue the ball and doesn't use two hands to grab the ball. He also doesn't move very well on defense. I'm not a fan of his and don't expect him to improve at rebounding.

Outside of Scott we were poor at rebounding and did not box out well. We lack the rim protecting big we've always had under Cronin. We used Scott in the enforcer position last night and he looked uncomfortable in the role (and honestly he's not a great shot blocker).

I'm optimistic this team will improve. I'm also optimistic that Diarra will get more playing time and Vogt/Sorolla far less. The team I saw last night is a borderline NCAA tournament team, but we get a lot better. We have 9 games to play before conference play, I expect us to improve a lot during those 9 games. But I also expect a few more losses (probably at least one to a team like Vermont or Drake or Colgate that we are expected to beat).
 
I agree Brannen isn't stupid. All along he's said he wants guys like Keith. Take that for what it's worth. I don't care how good Jarron could be, but remember Jarron was a wildcard. So he needs to kiss his entitlement good bye. I could see Brannen moving on from Jarron, because he could ultimately be a cancer to the young team.

Brannen runs a Pro Offense, Jarron should have gone "G" League if he wanted to feel special. Play to the system, or take a seat. Jarron Cumberland will not define Brannen's tenure at UC. Brannen will, and I like that about him.

Brannen has operated this entire time like Cumberland would not return, he comes back to UC, and that's a priviledge? lol

Remember when Cronin took over, D. Vaughn was just a body, although he was the best player.

This is ridiculous.

With out Jarron this team is trash and you know it.

And next yea, it doesn’t get a whole lot better.

In my opinion... we need Brannen to show he knows how to manage star guards and show how he can be successful at this level. Both will help our recruiting.

Squandering jarro. Cumberlands senior year isn’t exactly going to make good players want to come here.
 
This is ridiculous.

With out Jarron this team is trash and you know it.

And next yea, it doesn’t get a whole lot better.

In my opinion... we need Brannen to show he knows how to manage star guards and show how he can be successful at this level. Both will help our recruiting.

Squandering jarro. Cumberlands senior year isn’t exactly going to make good players want to come here.


Jarron is self squandering. Look at his shot selection, at what point did he show any type of leadership????????? That game was ours to take, and our so called Star missed about 5 Free Throws down the stretch, and couldn't pull his guys together late to get the win. Check Brannen's body language with Jarrons shot selection. We are finally out of the micro managed days, and Jarron had plenty of opportunities to leave his mark and he didn't. Jim Jackson pointed that out last night. I'm a Cumberland fan from day 1, and we've had conversations and he's still coasting. If your on the floor, you have an opportunity to make a difference, and with his skill set he's got to produce every night. Either by scoring, scrapping for rebounds, or just leadership. It didn't happen last night. Last night actually could have been a step back for him...ie The Bulldozer returned. I want to see him in the NBA, but that effort ain't gone cut it.
 
If a team of (See below) can make the tournament, I have the upmost confidence this team can..... This team went 22-11.

C- Octavious Ellis
F- Shaq Thomas
F- Gary Clark (Freshman)
G- Farad Cobb
G- Troy Caupain (Sophmore)
…………………………………………………..
Jermaine Sanders
Quadri Moore
Kevin Johnson
Coreontae Deberry
Ge'Lawn Guyn

Yes I know the schedule this year is much harder than it was that year and I know the conference is better now than it was in 2014-2015. And Yes I know its not just about making the tournament with this team, we all want to see a run. Lets give it time. We SHOULD win the next 7 games counting the two addition games we would play in the paradise jam or whatever its called. Should be 7-1 going into Xavier. Lets re evaluate then.

Do ppl really think we are making a run with this team?
 
This is ridiculous.

With out Jarron this team is trash and you know it.

And next yea, it doesn’t get a whole lot better.

In my opinion... we need Brannen to show he knows how to manage star guards and show how he can be successful at this level. Both will help our recruiting.

Squandering jarro. Cumberlands senior year isn’t exactly going to make good players want to come here.
Exactly, its the beginning of the season and everybody is all in on branned so much now Cumberland has to go??? Ha My god...
 
I missed the game live, watched the replay though.

If Cumberland is just a body on this team, than this team isn't going to the NCAA tournament. Cumberland is the only complete offensive player on the team and it stood out during pick-and-rolls. When we tried to use Vogt/Sorolla in a pick and roll with McNeal or Williams, Wesson would back off and dare them to shoot the 3. When it was with Jaevin, he'd step up and dare Jaevin to drive by him. Jarron is the only player on the team who is enough of a threat to drive or shoot to make the pick-and-roll effective and that seems to be a major part of the offense.

As others have said, we had more movement offensively, but most of the time it felt like we weren't going anywhere. As long as OSU didn't miss a rotation on a backcut, we didn't have much on offense other than Jarron driving to the basket. We took a lot of bad threes and it's the main reason our percentage was so low.

Our two biggest weaknesses seem to be lack of depth and our centers. We only went 7 deep last night. This early in the season and without many opportunities to rest (unlike the Cronin offense which would at times let the shot-clock run down on offense to let guys rest) we were tired out. We need to be able to go 8-9 deep at least or the 94-feet both ways is going to fail.

The centers looked solid on offense, though I have doubts about how often we had them outside the three point arc. Wesson was able to drop off and clog the lane when Sorolla/Vogt were outside the arc. I'm not really sure what the purpose of that was, but it seems to be part of the offense.

Vogt's biggest weakness looking at his stats last year was his foul trouble. I know it's early, but the exhibition game and OSU game make me think foul trouble is going to be an issue all season (and possible his entire career). He lacks body control on defense and brings his arm down too far when blocking shots. Besides that I think he could be a 15-20 minute per game guy, but as is I think he is below average. He wasn't great on defense or rebounding, but also wasn't terrible. Pretty average overall, but fouls make him below average.

Sorolla I've posted all off-season is a terrible rebounder. He continued to be terrible at rebounding. He doesn't pursue the ball and doesn't use two hands to grab the ball. He also doesn't move very well on defense. I'm not a fan of his and don't expect him to improve at rebounding.

Outside of Scott we were poor at rebounding and did not box out well. We lack the rim protecting big we've always had under Cronin. We used Scott in the enforcer position last night and he looked uncomfortable in the role (and honestly he's not a great shot blocker).

I'm optimistic this team will improve. I'm also optimistic that Diarra will get more playing time and Vogt/Sorolla far less. The team I saw last night is a borderline NCAA tournament team, but we get a lot better. We have 9 games to play before conference play, I expect us to improve a lot during those 9 games. But I also expect a few more losses (probably at least one to a team like Vermont or Drake or Colgate that we are expected to beat).
The thing is theres only so much you can do on offense Brannen isnt drawing up anything ground breaking. It takes athletes to put points on the board and guys that know how to score. We better be recruiting our asses off im telling you. For example Mcneal is a solid player but those aligator arms should did squander that wide open lay up last night. The kid should get better tho. Really dont wanna see anybody but him and Cumberland at point but would brannen let him run offense after last night
 
Do ppl really think we are making a run with this team?

Did I say we would make a run? I said we all want to "see" a run. Never once did I say this team would make a run or that I think this team will make a run. I was simply showing what lower talented teams in the past have done. I am saying this team can make the tournament yes.
 
Jarron is self squandering. Look at his shot selection, at what point did he show any type of leadership????????? That game was ours to take, and our so called Star missed about 5 Free Throws down the stretch, and couldn't pull his guys together late to get the win. Check Brannen's body language with Jarrons shot selection. We are finally out of the micro managed days, and Jarron had plenty of opportunities to leave his mark and he didn't. Jim Jackson pointed that out last night. I'm a Cumberland fan from day 1, and we've had conversations and he's still coasting. If your on the floor, you have an opportunity to make a difference, and with his skill set he's got to produce every night. Either by scoring, scrapping for rebounds, or just leadership. It didn't happen last night. Last night actually could have been a step back for him...ie The Bulldozer returned. I want to see him in the NBA, but that effort ain't gone cut it.



UHHH The dude was playing to the system LOL. Go back and watch How many times he just did what Brannen's system told him to do.

Brannen has an All American on his team who has being hounded all game, CJB did nothing to free up.
 
literally in Disbelief that people are blaming this game on Jarron Cumberland. And his lack of buy in.


whats funny is.. Im confident that Mick's Jarron at the Elbow offense would have been effective than what we saw.

Because in games like this.. against high level defense, systems don't work. UC and OSU will destroy your system and disrupt your flow. Its what we do.

But where we would usually lose, is when we a team flow was destroyed but they had an Alpha scorer who could make contested buckets and win his team the game.

Jarron was the guy, but that 2nd half adjustment wasn't made nearly enough.
 
literally in Disbelief that people are blaming this game on Jarron Cumberland. And his lack of buy in.


whats funny is.. Im confident that Mick's Jarron at the Elbow offense would have been effective than what we saw.

Because in games like this.. against high level defense, systems don't work. UC and OSU will destroy your system and disrupt your flow. Its what we do.

But where we would usually lose, is when we a team flow was destroyed but they had an Alpha scorer who could make contested buckets and win his team the game.

Jarron was the guy, but that 2nd half adjustment wasn't made nearly enough.

This narrative is dumb. Ohio state missed shots in the first half and made some in the 2nd. They missed their free throws the first half and made them all in the 2nd. That has nothing to do with adjustments.

Chris Mcneal makes the layup, then OSU doesnt make thiers and it isnt a 4 point swing.

3 awful charge calls. (2 were and 1s)

Jaevin makes the open 3 that rimmed out.

We win the game.

None of that had anything to do with adjustments. your narratives are so off
 
This narrative is dumb. Ohio state missed shots in the first half and made some in the 2nd. They missed their free throws the first half and made them all in the 2nd. That has nothing to do with adjustments.

Chris Mcneal makes the layup, then OSU doesnt make thiers and it isnt a 4 point swing.

3 awful charge calls. (2 were and 1s)

Jaevin makes the open 3 that rimmed out.

We win the game.

None of that had anything to do with adjustments. your narratives are so off



Holtman said... He scraped his entire offensive gameplan at halftime and started new.
 
I don't really agree with the bad refs narrative. The refs weren't that bad. There was 1 bad charge call, but it's a call that is often missed (foot on the line). Overall I thought the refs were pretty even calls, slight bias towards OSU.

2nd half they made adjustments and were able to score at a high percentage. They also adjusted to our defense and stop making many unforced errors.

Any game either team can go back to a few plays and play "what if" if they'd gone differently. The team that wins doesn't have to "what if" though. In the end, both teams were a lot better defensively than offensively. But OSU improved a lot on offense in the second half and UC's didn't, that's the difference.
 
Did I say we would make a run? I said we all want to "see" a run. Never once did I say this team would make a run or that I think this team will make a run. I was simply showing what lower talented teams in the past have done. I am saying this team can make the tournament yes.
I know what you said I was just throwing that question out there.. but that 22 and 11 squad I don't knw how they made the tournament besides gritty play. That's exactly what this teams gonna have to do only difference is this one has a "go to guy" and less depth. Tre shouldn't have too many games like that the rest of this season I think his urgency is going to kick in fast he was playing very solid at the end of last season
 
I think it can be a mix. I do think you are right. ISO Jarron is our best option. Especially later in the year. But we also don’t need to be “the Jarron show” literally every play like last year. Living and dying with one player isn’t a great way to succeed. Some games he will be in foul trouble or not have it. I think Brannen is trying to find that balance.
That's the thing there is no balance with this team. His best bet is more than likely space the floor and put it in jc hands. Let our shooters be ready to spot off his drives. Less vogt and sorollo at the top of the key looking for backdoor cuts. I liked some of thier post positioning thoe, they are big screening body's run some shooters off of those. Reading some of the body language of the guys I hope for the yrs sake they all buy into something affective real soon. They should be alright but considering the roster depth Brannen is going to have to box the gameplan up somewhat the rotation is gonna need legs by the end of the 2nd half
 
I know what you said I was just throwing that question out there.. but that 22 and 11 squad I don't knw how they made the tournament besides gritty play. That's exactly what this teams gonna have to do only difference is this one has a "go to guy" and less depth. Tre shouldn't have too many games like that the rest of this season I think his urgency is going to kick in fast he was playing very solid at the end of last season

Cronin was consistently great at getting the most out of his bad teams. His best teams generally underachieved, but his worst overachieved.

I think it's largely back to the philosophy of rebound and defend. If you do those two things at an extremely high level, you give yourself a chance in almost every game. Cronin's team were consistently among the top offensive rebounding teams in the country.

This team is going to have to win more with offense and turnovers. We only have 1 player who can rebound at a high level (Scott) and lack a high level interior defender/shot blocker. Hopefully the offense is good enough to make up the difference, last nights offense wasn't, but we still have a long way to go.
 
Cronin was consistently great at getting the most out of his bad teams. His best teams generally underachieved, but his worst overachieved.

I think it's largely back to the philosophy of rebound and defend. If you do those two things at an extremely high level, you give yourself a chance in almost every game. Cronin's team were consistently among the top offensive rebounding teams in the country.

This team is going to have to win more with offense and turnovers. We only have 1 player who can rebound at a high level (Scott) and lack a high level interior defender/shot blocker. Hopefully the offense is good enough to make up the difference, last nights offense wasn't, but we still have a long way to go.
Yea the number one thing for this team is going to be the 3 ball it's what brannen makes happen. The thing with that is shots aren't always constant I feel like JC2 has splash to his game that was close to being on display last night foreal they just didn't go down. Hopefully Moore can finally start earning his scholarship. This teams gonna need that three ball to go down and for Jarron and Kieth to start going downhill dribble driving causing fouls. I like how Kieth talked and backed it up with a solid performance. They are def better on O despite 56 last night as we get deeper in the season teams may start carving the D a little with a more effective pick and rolls bc our two new big guys are hackboxes with slow feet
 
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