Good Article by Paul Dehner Jr

[JasonS]

After the Mick Cronin extension, most of the feedback was positive. For anybody who reads this blog -- or even read my past blogs at CNati -- knows, I've always been a proponent of Cronin as the coach of this team.

The job he's done here has been and likely will always be underrated. Not only for wins and losses or turning around a gutted program, but the cleaning up of off-court transgressions and academic standards.

Yet, after the extension was announced some negative feedback showed up on Facebook, Twitter and other outlets.

Maybe I'm too close to properly understand where people are coming from here, but what could the issue possibly be anymore? The guy beat Hall of Fame coaches, doing so with less talent for years, and when finally able to build the talent level back up, ended up in the upper half of the league.

Ask South Florida, Rutgers, DePaul, Providence and Seton Hall about the difficulty of that climb.

Older players matured, younger players improved, UC returned to the NCAA tournament and is set up to make a deeper run next season. I heard some say we shouldn't be excited about an "average season." You know how many times since 1994 under Bob Huggins UC won more than one game in the NCAA tournament? Two (1996, 2001).

So, call this season where UC was still working on a rebuild "average" all you want, I'm not sure what you are comparing it to.

--- For some comparison, I would like to take a look at all the coaches from major conference schools that were hired five years ago along with Mick Cronin and analyze how they performed.

Coach/School OvrRecord NCAAs 2011Record Status

Herb Sendek/Arizona St. 88-73 1 12-18 Coach

Mick Cronin/Cincinnati 87-76 1 26-9 Coach

Kelvin Sampson/Indiana 43-15 1 --- Fired (NCAA violations)

Greg McDermott/Iowa State 59-68 0 --- Fired (4 seasons)

Bob Huggins/Kansas State 23-12 0 --- WVU

Andy Kennedy/Mississippi 105-64 0 20-14 Coach

Mike Anderson/Mizzou 111-57 3 23-11 Arkansas

Sidney Lowe/NC State 86-78 0 15-16 Fired (5 seasons)

Doc Sadler/Nebraska 89-70 0 19-13 Coach

Jeff Capel/Oklahoma 96-69 2 14-18 Fired

Sean Sutton/Oklahoma St. 39-29 0 --- Resigned (2 seasons)

Fred Hill/Rutgers 47-77 0 --- Fired (4 seasons)

Bobby Gonzalez/Seton Hall 66-59 0 --- Fired (4 seasons)

--- How do you feel about the hire now?

Of 13 major conference coaches hired in 2006:

FOUR are still coaching at the schools that hired them.

TWO were promoted or chose to leave (Huggins/Anderson).

SEVEN were fired or resigned.

TWO have been to more NCAA tournaments than Cronin.

NONE had a better record at the school which hired them this season.

ONE was in the tournament with the team that hired them this season. That would Anderson at Missouri, which UC beat in the first round before the coach bolted for greener pastures.

--- Take those numbers into further consideration. If you asked ANY college basketball expert which of these jobs offered the situation most conducive to winning at the time, likely all of them would place Cincinnati last on that list. You know the story, no scholarship players, living in the Big East, etc, etc.

--- Now, all of these coaches weren't fired/resigned for on-court reasons. There was text-happy Sampson, pressure-packed Sean Sutton and legitimately insane Bobby Gonzalez. But, guess what, as I believe most you know (or maybe you don't and that's why you have time to read this blog every day), getting along and working effectively with your bosses/surroundings represents a significant part of your job description.

--- What did you desire when Cronin was hired? Winning? Loyalty? Playing by the rules? NCAA tournaments?

Find me a better combination of these among this group. You can't.

Now, please, please, please, stop any complaining about this extension. And if you hear somebody questioning it, forward them the link to this blog.

--- As AD Mike Thomas told Bill Koch in his piece from today's Enquirer, extending and giving a $350,000 raise to Cronin was the right thing to do.

http://www.gobearcats.com/blog/2011/04/bearcats-breakfast-4611.html

 

[psax889906]

The only people left hating are people that will likely never come back... the focus should be on building up a new, YOUTHFUL fan base. Must connect with young 20 and 30 something alumni and build up the support from the students while they are here. I'm excited to see how well the students come out from the start next year. I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[TheCatsAreBack]

I agree. We have turned a corner, and hating on Mick is so passe.

Some folks don't like him and it seems to be a personal-level thing with them. They will resurface any time the program hiccups, but I really don't think they will find enough opportunities for their hatred next year to make continued pounding of their "arguments" worthwhile.

 

[Juliepitzer]

After the Mick Cronin extension, most of the feedback was positive. For anybody who reads this blog -- or even read my past blogs at CNati -- knows, I've always been a proponent of Cronin as the coach of this team.

The job he's done here has been and likely will always be underrated. Not only for wins and losses or turning around a gutted program, but the cleaning up of off-court transgressions and academic standards.

Yet, after the extension was announced some negative feedback showed up on Facebook, Twitter and other outlets.

Maybe I'm too close to properly understand where people are coming from here, but what could the issue possibly be anymore? The guy beat Hall of Fame coaches, doing so with less talent for years, and when finally able to build the talent level back up, ended up in the upper half of the league.

Ask South Florida, Rutgers, DePaul, Providence and Seton Hall about the difficulty of that climb.

Older players matured, younger players improved, UC returned to the NCAA tournament and is set up to make a deeper run next season. I heard some say we shouldn't be excited about an "average season." You know how many times since 1994 under Bob Huggins UC won more than one game in the NCAA tournament? Two (1996, 2001).

So, call this season where UC was still working on a rebuild "average" all you want, I'm not sure what you are comparing it to.

--- For some comparison, I would like to take a look at all the coaches from major conference schools that were hired five years ago along with Mick Cronin and analyze how they performed.

Coach/School OvrRecord NCAAs 2011Record Status

Herb Sendek/Arizona St. 88-73 1 12-18 Coach

Mick Cronin/Cincinnati 87-76 1 26-9 Coach

Kelvin Sampson/Indiana 43-15 1 --- Fired (NCAA violations)

Greg McDermott/Iowa State 59-68 0 --- Fired (4 seasons)

Bob Huggins/Kansas State 23-12 0 --- WVU

Andy Kennedy/Mississippi 105-64 0 20-14 Coach

Mike Anderson/Mizzou 111-57 3 23-11 Arkansas

Sidney Lowe/NC State 86-78 0 15-16 Fired (5 seasons)

Doc Sadler/Nebraska 89-70 0 19-13 Coach

Jeff Capel/Oklahoma 96-69 2 14-18 Fired

Sean Sutton/Oklahoma St. 39-29 0 --- Resigned (2 seasons)

Fred Hill/Rutgers 47-77 0 --- Fired (4 seasons)

Bobby Gonzalez/Seton Hall 66-59 0 --- Fired (4 seasons)

--- How do you feel about the hire now?

Of 13 major conference coaches hired in 2006:

FOUR are still coaching at the schools that hired them.

TWO were promoted or chose to leave (Huggins/Anderson).

SEVEN were fired or resigned.

TWO have been to more NCAA tournaments than Cronin.

NONE had a better record at the school which hired them this season.

ONE was in the tournament with the team that hired them this season. That would Anderson at Missouri, which UC beat in the first round before the coach bolted for greener pastures.

--- Take those numbers into further consideration. If you asked ANY college basketball expert which of these jobs offered the situation most conducive to winning at the time, likely all of them would place Cincinnati last on that list. You know the story, no scholarship players, living in the Big East, etc, etc.

--- Now, all of these coaches weren't fired/resigned for on-court reasons. There was text-happy Sampson, pressure-packed Sean Sutton and legitimately insane Bobby Gonzalez. But, guess what, as I believe most you know (or maybe you don't and that's why you have time to read this blog every day), getting along and working effectively with your bosses/surroundings represents a significant part of your job description.

--- What did you desire when Cronin was hired? Winning? Loyalty? Playing by the rules? NCAA tournaments?

Find me a better combination of these among this group. You can't.

Now, please, please, please, stop any complaining about this extension. And if you hear somebody questioning it, forward them the link to this blog.

--- As AD Mike Thomas told Bill Koch in his piece from today's Enquirer, extending and giving a $350,000 raise to Cronin was the right thing to do.

http://www.gobearcats.com/blog/2011/04/bearcats-breakfast-4611.html

I have mentioned, on more than one occasion, as to the issues many have. I have been called ignorant, a hater, stupid, racist, etc. But the fact remains that many just have an issue over the Louisville defection. I am not nearly as mad as I was 5 years ago, but still the resentment remains. But what do I know, I am the only one who feels this way right? I do feel he should be applauded for this season however. Hope he embrasses the community though. Maybe some wounds will heal. Who knows.

 

[adrock]

I have mentioned, on more than one occasion, as to the issues many have. I have been called ignorant, a hater, stupid, racist, etc. But the fact remains that many just have an issue over the Louisville defection. I am not nearly as mad as I was 5 years ago, but still the resentment remains. But what do I know, I am the only one who feels this way right?

Right.

 

[anbuc88]

I have mentioned, on more than one occasion, as to the issues many have. I have been called ignorant, a hater, stupid, racist, etc. But the fact remains that many just have an issue over the Louisville defection. I am not nearly as mad as I was 5 years ago, but still the resentment remains. But what do I know, I am the only one who feels this way right? I do feel he should be applauded for this season however. Hope he embrasses the community though. Maybe some wounds will heal. Who knows.

As BearcatJeff has mentioned in an earlier thread, it good to have someone like you on this forum. Why? Because it the politically correct thing to say, of course. It good to have a women on these boards, regardless of how much basketball knowledge they have. Why, if it wasn't for you, germaine topics such as why doesn't Mick recruit white players, or why leaving for Louisville should always be held against him, or why there is a movement to get rid of Mike Thomas and Mick Cronin would never have been discussed here. All these topics were presented to this community by you for further discussion. There's an element of the cincinnati.com comments section that you have brought to this site, and we should all be thanking you for it. As we all know, that is the best site for any UC fan to visit and post under. Your 'why does Mick Cronin not recruit white players' was taken directly from a poster there. So if anyone has called you a hater, ignorant, stupid, or racist, my sincerest apoligies. Just one last thing. When Ralph accused you of posting (after the SJU game) on cincinnati.com comments section that you had given up your fandome, and were done being a UC fan, was this true? If it is, I guess I should rescind the apology for anyone calling you stupid.

 

[Who Dey Time]

I have mentioned, on more than one occasion, as to the issues many have. I have been called ignorant, a hater, stupid, racist, etc. But the fact remains that many just have an issue over the Louisville defection. I am not nearly as mad as I was 5 years ago, but still the resentment remains. But what do I know, I am the only one who feels this way right? I do feel he should be applauded for this season however. Hope he embrasses the community though. Maybe some wounds will heal. Who knows.

For the life of me I can't understand why someone holds a grudge for an assistant coach who tried (and succeeded by the way) to better his career.

And embracing is a two way street. Mick has built the program back to the level it was under Huggins. If you can't embrace that then I think you need to make a decision as to whether or not you were a UC fan or simply a Huggins fan.

 

[JasonS]

For the life of me I can't understand why someone holds a grudge for an assistant coach who tried (and succeeded by the way) to better his career.

And embracing is a two way street. Mick has built the program back to the level it was under Huggins. If you can't embrace that then I think you need to make a decision as to whether or not you were a UC fan or simply a Huggins fan.

I agree completely. By the way, if Mick never left Huggins to go work for Pitino, he would have never gotten the UC job and who knows where this program would be right now.

 

[Ryno99]

For the life of me I can't understand why someone holds a grudge for an assistant coach who tried (and succeeded by the way) to better his career.

And embracing is a two way street. Mick has built the program back to the level it was under Huggins. If you can't embrace that then I think you need to make a decision as to whether or not you were a UC fan or simply a Huggins fan.

I have to agree. I am happy he left Huggins staff to go to L'ville. It made him the coach he is today, and a damn good one at that. He got experience under one of the best ever in Pitino, love him or hate him, he's good, and that experience has helped Mick on his journey. Just because he went there doesn't make him a UC hater. UC is obviously his destination job and always will be. He just went to U of L for a brief time to further himself and eventually help make UC a better program. What's the harm in that. Trust me, he's not secretly rooting for U of L to do well.

 

[Not Guilty]

I have to agree. I am happy he left Huggins staff to go to L'ville. It made him the coach he is today, and a damn good one at that. He got experience under one of the best ever in Pitino, love him or hate him, he's good, and that experience has helped Mick on his journey. Just because he went there doesn't make him a UC hater. UC is obviously his destination job and always will be. He just went to U of L for a brief time to further himself and eventually help make UC a better program. What's the harm in that. Trust me, he's not secretly rooting for U of L to do well.

I wasn't happy he went there at the time. UC's overall talent dropped significantly when he left and Andy Kennedy became the lead assistant. But now that everything has worked out for UC, I couldn't be more happy. If he would have stayed, as someone else said he very likely would not be the coach here now, and quite frankly there is no one else out there that would have made a lot of sense. Remember when people were talking about Karl Hobbs as another candidate besides Cronin? How is that working out? And if they did decide to keep him as the coach of the team after the Huggins dismissal, he would have had no head coaching experience, or experience on another coaching staff of another all time great, which gave him a different perspective.

It was tough to swallow at the time. But its clear it has worked out extremely well for UC in the long run. If you are a true UC fan, that is what should matter to you and if you can't accept that by now, however many years later, you really might want to look in the mirror. You have some real problems. To expect a coach to embrace the community while never embracing him in 5 years on the job is extremely hypocritical.

 

[JasonS]

I wasn't happy he went there at the time. UC's overall talent dropped significantly when he left and Andy Kennedy became the lead assistant. But now that everything has worked out for UC, I couldn't be more happy. If he would have stayed, as someone else said he very likely would not be the coach here now, and quite frankly there is no one else out there that would have made a lot of sense. Remember when people were talking about Karl Hobbs as another candidate besides Cronin? How is that working out? And if they did decide to keep him as the coach of the team after the Huggins dismissal, he would have had no head coaching experience, or experience on another coaching staff of another all time great, which gave him a different perspective.

It was tough to swallow at the time. But its clear it has worked out extremely well for UC in the long run. If you are a true UC fan, that is what should matter to you and if you can't accept that by now, however many years later, you really might want to look in the mirror. You have some real problems. To expect a coach to embrace the community while never embracing him in 5 years on the job is extremely hypocritical.

Well said, and just to add to your statement, how hard does everything think it was for Mick to decide to leave Huggins' staff and UC to go to a RIVAL coach and school? It's not like Mick jumped ship without thinking about the ramifications. Count me as one of the many students that booed Cronin every time he came to the Shoe as an assistant with Louisville. It's funny how being faced with similar situations with job opportunities in your life can make you look back on decisions made by others. I didn't get it at the time, but now I get why Cronin left for Louisville. Once I had that experience in the real world of work, I couldn't hold anything against the guy.

 

[TheLongHaul]

Well said, and just to add to your statement, how hard does everything think it was for Mick to decide to leave Huggins' staff and UC to go to a RIVAL coach and school? It's not like Mick jumped ship without thinking about the ramifications. Count me as one of the many students that booed Cronin every time he came to the Shoe as an assistant with Louisville. It's funny how being faced with similar situations with job opportunities in your life can make you look back on decisions made by others. I didn't get it at the time, but now I get why Cronin left for Louisville. Once I had that experience in the real world of work, I couldn't hold anything against the guy.

I could understand if it was a different coach, but I can't recall one assistant ever being hired for a head coaching job while working under Huggins. The only reason AK has a HC job now is because he was forced to take the interim position at UC and got his experience that way. If I recall correctly, he had a interview for a coaching position at Louisiana-Monroe and couldn't even get that job. Frank Martin got his job because Huggins left for WVU and they needed a quick replacement, plus it was the only way for Beasley to stay committed. Dan Peters was thrown under the bus by Huggins as well. John Lowyer anyone?

Mick had interviews while under Huggins and the AD's told him that he had no shot unless he went somewhere else first. I would have done the same thing.

 

[JasonS]

I could understand if it was a different coach, but I can't recall one assistant ever being hired for a head coaching job while working under Huggins. The only reason AK has a HC job now is because he was forced to take the interim position at UC and got his experience that way. If I recall correctly, he had a interview for a coaching position at Louisiana-Monroe and couldn't even get that job. Frank Martin got his job because Huggins left for WVU and they needed a quick replacement, plus it was the only way for Beasley to stay committed. Dan Peters was thrown under the bus by Huggins as well. John Lowyer anyone?

Mick had interviews while under Huggins and the AD's told him that he had no shot unless he went somewhere else first. I would have done the same thing.

You can't fairly say no assistant has gotten a job while under Huggins and then name two but put down how they got those jobs. Frank Martin was going to get a HC job at some point. Maybe not that soon, but he would have at some point. AK is questionable. I'll give you that.

I agree that Mick had to get out from under Huggins to get a HC job and I also would have done the same thing.

 

[Not Guilty]

How do you know that Frank Martin was getting a job at some point? He was a relatively unknown high school coach when he was hired by Huggins in his last year at UC. He then coached under him for one year at Kansas State. Frank Martin had a long way to go to get a head coaching job. He lucked into Huggins going to WVU.

 

[JasonS]

How do you know that Frank Martin was getting a job at some point? He was a relatively unknown high school coach when he was hired by Huggins in his last year at UC. He then coached under him for one year at Kansas State. Frank Martin had a long way to go to get a head coaching job. He lucked into Huggins going to WVU.

Frank Martin was respected as a coach. I agree he wouldn't have gotten a head coaching job as soon as he did. My point was that you can't say that no one got jobs under Huggins, name 2 and then try to discount that. The fact is that two assistant coaches in the last 5 or 6 years have gotten HC jobs. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Edit: By the way, Frank Martin coached as an assistant in college since 2000 when he started at Northeastern as an assistant/recruiting coordinator. He then worked a year under Huggs at UC and a year under Kennedy at UC. Huggs hired him when he went to Kansas St. To say he was a relatively unknown HS coach when Huggins hired him would be incorrect.

 

[Not Guilty]

I disagree. There is always context to a story and simply laying that context out is completely fair. There is no way to know when Frank Martin was going to get a job. We do know that when he did get his job, there was a lot of head scratching and people pretty much knew it was done in an attempt to keep Hill and thusly keep Beasley.

And you even admitted the situation with AK. Those are two massive qualifiers that help paint the picture of why it wasn't a bad idea for Mick to get experience in another system.

Also, I have heard Mick say that one reason he went to Louisville is that he was convinced Huggins was going to accept the position with West Virginia the first time around and preferred not to go to Morgantown.

 

[MDW79]

I disagree. There is always context to a story and simply laying that context out is completely fair. There is no way to know when Frank Martin was going to get a job. We do know that when he did get his job, there was a lot of head scratching and people pretty much knew it was done in an attempt to keep Hill and thusly keep Beasley.

And you even admitted the situation with AK. Those are two massive qualifiers that help paint the picture of why it wasn't a bad idea for Mick to get experience in another system.

Also, I have heard Mick say that one reason he went to Louisville is that he was convinced Huggins was going to accept the position with West Virginia the first time around and preferred not to go to Morgantown.

I agree for the most part, but Frank Martin was offered a lot of assistant jobs and chose to stay at the HS ranks for quite some time. He was pretty well known in coaching circles. It's not as if Huggs plucked him out of thin air. Now, how long it would have taken him to elevate from assistant to HC can be debated, but I think his success only dictates that was inevitable either way.

The fact remains Hugss has 3 fairly successful, and I would define it as "very successful", assistants turned HC's in the collegiate ranks. How many current head coaches can boast having 3 of their assistants now at the helm of BCS programs? (I don't know the answer, but I would guess less than 10, maybe less than 5)

I think John Loyer could have easily been a D1 head coach too, and I believe he's going on 10+ years as an assistant in the NBA, which is nothing to sneeze at. We can all argue whether or not Mick would have gotten a HC gig had he stayed (I think he would have, but it would have taken longer. And I don't think it's as simply as leaving Huggs as it is be able to list having experience under 2 HOF'ers) but Huggs had very good assistants, and most are better off for having coached with him.

 

[TheLongHaul]

You can't fairly say no assistant has gotten a job while under Huggins and then name two but put down how they got those jobs. Frank Martin was going to get a HC job at some point. Maybe not that soon, but he would have at some point. AK is questionable. I'll give you that.

I agree that Mick had to get out from under Huggins to get a HC job and I also would have done the same thing.

I sure can. As I clearly stated in the post, "while working under Huggins". Frank Martin and AK were not working under Huggins when they were hired. I guess you could argue that Martin was. Even so, it should have been fairly obvious that my point was that assistants under Huggins were not getting opportunities while under Huggins. Plus, Martin and Kennedy were after Cronin leaving anyway.

You have no idea if Martin was going to get a head coaching job while under Huggins. There is very little evidence to support such a thing happening. Who are the coaches that got a head coaching job while working under Huggins?

 

[TheLongHaul]

I agree for the most part, but Frank Martin was offered a lot of assistant jobs and chose to stay at the HS ranks for quite some time. He was pretty well known in coaching circles. It's not as if Huggs plucked him out of thin air. Now, how long it would have taken him to elevate from assistant to HC can be debated, but I think his success only dictates that was inevitable either way.

The fact remains Hugss has 3 fairly successful, and I would define it as "very successful", assistants turned HC's in the collegiate ranks. How many current head coaches can boast having 3 of their assistants now at the helm of BCS programs? (I don't know the answer, but I would guess less than 10, maybe less than 5)

I think John Loyer could have easily been a D1 head coach too, and I believe he's going on 10+ years as an assistant in the NBA, which is nothing to sneeze at. We can all argue whether or not Mick would have gotten a HC gig had he stayed (I think he would have, but it would have taken longer. And I don't think it's as simply as leaving Huggs as it is be able to list having experience under 2 HOF'ers) but Huggs had very good assistants, and most are better off for having coached with him.

Frank Martin was at Northeastern for four years before going to UC. He didn't go to UC from HS.

But you are still missing the point of the whole argument. Cronin left because he had to in order to get a head coaching job. Besides the AD's specifically telling him that, what other assistant coaches got head coaching jobs while working for Huggins? It is a bit ironic that you reference Loyer though, because the whole reason he is in the NBA is b/c Huggins threw him under the bus. And there was a reason Dan Peters quit to join OSU's staff.

 

[MDW79]

Frank Martin was at Northeastern for four years before going to UC. He didn't go to UC from HS.

But you are still missing the point of the whole argument. Cronin left because he had to in order to get a head coaching job. Besides the AD's specifically telling him that, what other assistant coaches got head coaching jobs while working for Huggins? It is a bit ironic that you reference Loyer though, because the whole reason he is in the NBA is b/c Huggins threw him under the bus. And there was a reason Dan Peters quit to join OSU's staff.

I didn't say he did, I said that he was fairly well known in coaching circles, and that he had chose to stay in the HS ranks for longer than he needed to. And fwiw, Bob is the one that helped get him that job at Northeastern.

I'm not missing any point, as I actually agreed with you. I even said that I thought what helped Cronin the most was not one particular coaches name, but to have both of them listed on his resume. My point was, no matter how much we all debate how they got there, the fact remains that Huggs has mentored 3 major conference college head coaches.