St Johns Bball

[TheLongHaul]

SJU has had better recruiting classes than Cronin last 2 years. This is not about one recruit. If you want to compare, go back 2 seasons to when Lavin took over, not before that.

We finished 3rd in the Big East in Lavin's first season. Last year we had to replace 12 scholarship players and had some "bumps" in the road like only 6 guys and Lavin sat the season out with cancer. Things back to business this year. I think SJU can be a top 6 Big East team this year. no pushover.

the last two years? SJU's 2011 class included 3 players that were declared ineligible, one that transferred midway through the season, and one that left for the NBA after one useless season which essentially added no value for SJU's.

 

[Doogle]

The only thing anyone can legitimately say about St. Johns right now is that on paper, they look talented. How all those pieces come together is anyone's guess.

Statistics lie a little bit when discussing UC. Gates was a great recruiting coup for Mick and we needed him at the time, but frankly doesn't fit the profile of what Mick wants UC to be. He'd like an athletic, hybrid-style team that plays more of a fluid open-post type of game. All the players he's recruited since Gates fit this mold - most notably Shaq Thomas, who redshirted last season and by all accounts was often the best player on the court in practices. Furthermore, Jermaine Sanders and Jeremiah Davis III contributed well as frosh at various points in the season - Sanders actually made an impact in UC's two tourney wins.

The biggest wild cards are Kelvin Gaines and Cheikh Mbodj. Gaines is an athletic beast and could be a very good shot blocker but is raw, hopefully his year in the program has given him a better idea of what he needs to do this offseason. Mbodj has intriguing potential but was hampered by injuries and the Xavier brawl. If either of these players step up, UC could be infinitely better than a year ago.

Lotta ifs here. But consider Dion Dixon, a player you cited as a top statistical guy that's leaving. Dion's only other major scholarship offer was Bradley if I'm not mistaken. He went from little-known mid major prospect to a huge, if inconsistent, part of 2 NCAA tourney teams. This is where Mick does a better job than almost anyone in the country of identifying under the radar talent before others and then developing that talent. It's why UC's two 2013 recruits are so significant, and why national recruiting rankings outside the top 20-50 aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

 

[Bearcat22]

The only thing anyone can legitimately say about St. Johns right now is that on paper, they look talented. How all those pieces come together is anyone's guess.

Statistics lie a little bit when discussing UC. Gates was a great recruiting coup for Mick and we needed him at the time, but frankly doesn't fit the profile of what Mick wants UC to be. He'd like an athletic, hybrid-style team that plays more of a fluid open-post type of game. All the players he's recruited since Gates fit this mold - most notably Shaq Thomas, who redshirted last season and by all accounts was often the best player on the court in practices. Furthermore, Jermaine Sanders and Jeremiah Davis III contributed well as frosh at various points in the season - Sanders actually made an impact in UC's two tourney wins.

The biggest wild cards are Kelvin Gaines and Cheikh Mbodj. Gaines is an athletic beast and could be a very good shot blocker but is raw, hopefully his year in the program has given him a better idea of what he needs to do this offseason. Mbodj has intriguing potential but was hampered by injuries and the Xavier brawl. If either of these players step up, UC could be infinitely better than a year ago.

Lotta ifs here. But consider Dion Dixon, a player you cited as a top statistical guy that's leaving. Dion's only other major scholarship offer was Bradley if I'm not mistaken. He went from little-known mid major prospect to a huge, if inconsistent, part of 2 NCAA tourney teams. This is where Mick does a better job than almost anyone in the country of identifying under the radar talent before others and then developing that talent. It's why UC's two 2013 recruits are so significant, and why national recruiting rankings outside the top 20-50 aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

Good points - I forgot the Dixon stuff from my post.

 

[SJUBall]

St. John's could struggle early as the team tries to develop chemistry. But there is a lot of talent. Nobody expects you to be an expert on the Cats, but while we're lucky to have possibly the best SG in the BEAST in Killapatrick and one of the best PG in Cash, we certainly have more then that coming back. Our best recruit a year ago, Shaq Thomas, was a redshirt (NCAA Clearinghouse related), Jackson (who you mentioned) has another year of development under his belt, Mbodj played last season on essentially one good ankle, Gaines can provide a defensive shot block presence and should see more minutes, Sanders (NYC guy) is by all accounts lighting up the summer workouts, Rubbles (one of the best Jucos in the country) will add to the front court, if you watched any of Cats games you saw that Parker is easily one of the toughest hard nosed intangible guys in the NCAA, Guyn already can play D-1 defense and will contribute at both guards positions, this could go on. Yes you have talent, so do we.

Your best player Kilpatrick is good. SJU's D'Angelo Harrison is better IMO and is likely best SG in Big East. Harrison averaged 17ppg as frosh in Big East last season. I expect even better this year. I love Kilpatrick but I think D'Lo is better.

Cashmere is excellent. SJU doesn't match up perfectly there with Phil Greene, but will have top 60 Pg transfer from Texas A&M Jamal Branch eligible for Big East play and I've heard he's excellent. he will likely move to starting PG spot when season in swing.

Rest of roster is excellent too. We return fantastic forwards Amir Garrett and SirDomnic Pointer, add JC AA PF Orlando Sanchez as well as Jakarr Sampson and Chris Obekpa and return a very solid God's Gift Achiuwa in the post who double-doubled aghast UK last year. That's not to mention several other talented freshmen like Felix Balamou, Darrick Wood, Marco Bourgault.

Lots of depth, but I read a lot of lofty talk here about Cincy's team and how much better. I don't see it just yet. I still see a lot of holes in the frontcourt for Cincy to fill. Nobody back statistically that is filling Dion's nor Yancy's role. No doubt some will step up but nobody in the frontcourt that's statistically dominating entering the season either. I see ur rosters matching up pretty closely which is my point, and not the mismatch some Cincy fans here making it out to be.

 

[SJUBall]

the last two years? SJU's 2011 class included 3 players that were declared ineligible, one that transferred midway through the season, and one that left for the NBA after one useless season which essentially added no value for SJU's.

Those 6 guys of no value, all freshmen, managed to split games with Cincy last year. 5/6 are back this year.

 

[ucswais]

Two of the definite programs on the rise and both will be BE teams for the long haul. I don't really see any reason to tear each other down. Both have really good rosters and coaching, but nobody really knows how it all will come together for either.

 

[SJUBall]

Two of the definite programs on the rise and both will be BE teams for the long haul. I don't really see any reason to tear each other down. Both have really good rosters and coaching, but nobody really knows how it all will come together for either.

I agree. Like I said, I think a thread like this is a good one. SJU fans came here because of all of the claims of Lavin cheating to get Obekpa which is nonsense. I do like threads like this to discuss and compare both programs, not to tear anyone down. I think Cincy has a very good program entering this season.

I just suspect that most don't realize the type of talent and depth SJU looks to have this year. There will be a lot of surprises come Big East schedule time if everybody is expecting SJU to be a bottom feeder.

 

[Bearcat22]

Your best player Kilpatrick is good. SJU's D'Angelo Harrison is better IMO and is likely best SG in Big East. Harrison averaged 17ppg as frosh in Big East last season. I expect even better this year. I love Kilpatrick but I think D'Lo is better.

Cashmere is excellent. SJU doesn't match up perfectly there with Phil Greene, but will have top 60 Pg transfer from Texas A&M Jamal Branch eligible for Big East play and I've heard he's excellent. he will likely move to starting PG spot when season in swing.

Rest of roster is excellent too. We return fantastic forwards Amir Garrett and SirDomnic Pointer, add JC AA PF Orlando Sanchez as well as Jakarr Sampson and Chris Obekpa and return a very solid God's Gift Achiuwa in the post who double-doubled aghast UK last year. That's not to mention several other talented freshmen like Felix Balamou, Darrick Wood, Marco Bourgault.

Lots of depth, but I read a lot of lofty talk here about Cincy's team and how much better. I don't see it just yet. I still see a lot of holes in the frontcourt for Cincy to fill. Nobody back statistically that is filling Dion's nor Yancy's role. No doubt some will step up but nobody in the frontcourt that's statistically dominating entering the season either. I see ur rosters matching up pretty closely which is my point, and not the mismatch some Cincy fans here making it out to be.

We'll have to respectfully disagree about Kilpatrick vs Harrison. Doesn't Jay Billas always use the phrase "reasonable minds can differ" when he's debating with the other analyists...I would view this in that category. We'll see as the season unfolds.

I like the upperclassman toughness that the Cats have and think it should serve them well in conference play. I think our depth will allows us to play more up-tempo and we can feature multiple looks. I think St. John's getting Sanchez could be a total steal. I wanted then Cat's to get him. In that regard, I think we got a steal in Titus Rubbles.

Both teams have talent. I want the Big East to dominate the other conferences and both our teams being talented helps that cause. When the Cats play you, clearly I want a crushing win for the Cats. I would expect you to want the opposite. If you ever play Xavier, I will root as hard as I can for you.

 

[TheLongHaul]

Those 6 guys of no value, all freshmen, managed to split games with Cincy last year. 5/6 are back this year.

You keep referencing the split series like it means something. First, if you want to use head to head as some sort of indicator, I guess Northeastern was much better than SJU's and must have had better recruiting classes, correct? SJU lost by 14 to Northeastern. Your season sucked last year. You lost by 20 to Pitt, and Pitt sucked last year. Second, UC played one of it's worst games of the year and lost on a last second shot. The next time UC played SJU's, UC won by 22 points. Yep, that's right, 22 points....So keep talking about the "split" all you want, the fact of the matter is UC was a 6 seed in the NCAA's, went to the finals of the BET and finished 4th in the league. SJU's sucked. Blame it on the fact that they only had 6 guys all you want, but that was Lavin's fault for recruiting those guys. Everyone in the world knew that Sampson wasn't going to qualify yet Lavin was the one coach that would take him.

You may very well be good next year. There is pretty good talent there but last year you weren't and the 2011 recruiting class was just average.

 

[SJUBall]

We'll have to respectfully disagree about Kilpatrick vs Harrison. Doesn't Jay Billas always use the phrase "reasonable minds can differ" when he's debating with the other analyists...I would view this in that category. We'll see as the season unfolds.

I like the upperclassman toughness that the Cats have and think it should serve them well in conference play. I think our depth will allows us to play more up-tempo and we can feature multiple looks. I think St. John's getting Sanchez could be a total steal. I wanted then Cat's to get him. In that regard, I think we got a steal in Titus Rubbles.

Both teams have talent. I want the Big East to dominate the other conferences and both our teams being talented helps that cause. When the Cats play you, clearly I want a crushing win for the Cats. I would expect you to want the opposite. If you ever play Xavier, I will root as hard as I can for you.

All well-said. The Kilpatrick vs Harrison thing is certainly debatable but both at the top level in this league and both have similar numbers... With D'Lo leading

 

[SJUBall]

You keep referencing the split series like it means something. First, if you want to use head to head as some sort of indicator, I guess Northeastern was much better than SJU's and must have had better recruiting classes, correct? SJU lost by 14 to Northeastern. Your season sucked last year. You lost by 20 to Pitt, and Pitt sucked last year. Second, UC played one of it's worst games of the year and lost on a last second shot. The next time UC played SJU's, UC won by 22 points. Yep, that's right, 22 points....So keep talking about the "split" all you want, the fact of the matter is UC was a 6 seed in the NCAA's, went to the finals of the BET and finished 4th in the league. SJU's sucked. Blame it on the fact that they only had 6 guys all you want, but that was Lavin's fault for recruiting those guys. Everyone in the world knew that Sampson wasn't going to qualify yet Lavin was the one coach that would take him.

You may very well be good next year. There is pretty good talent there but last year you weren't and the 2011 recruiting class was just average.

That 2011 class of all freshmen almost beat Duke at Cameron. "average" it was not. SJU unfortunate to have a few kids declared ineligible and some others leave. Oh, and Lavin to get cancer. Last year was a top to bottom rebuild. Mick knows what rebuilding is all about too, trust me.

 

[BearcatMick]

Sju is a terrible bottom feeder mid major team that lucked into a legit conference.

They are on par with depaul and will be lucky to make the nit this year.

Uc is a top 10 caliber team and has a great shot at a national championship. I would be shocked if sju keeps their loss(es) vs uc next year within 15 points

 

[Doogle]

I think we see 2 programs going about their business differently, and only occasionally crossing paths for players. Both programs have gotten players for various reasons. Someone said Jermaine Sanders went to UC because SJU wouldn't/couldn't sign him. OK. It appears Obekpa swung towards SJU because Mick got tired of his act and backed away from him. SJU fans are convinced Lavin simply turned up the juice and snatched him away. Who really knows? Reasonable minds can see the same thing differently.

The difference between UC and SJU early, at least on paper, is that by and large the Bearcat players have been together for 2-3 years and have defined roles on the team, know how to complement one another on the court, etc. The big key will be Shaq Thomas and Rubles at the 3/4 spot. There's so much versatility on the wings that the 5 spot is significant only at the back of the defense and rebounding on both ends. Of course we'd like to have a dominant shot blocker but we certainly don't need Yancy Gates type production with the kind of style Mick wants to play.

Undoubtedly St. John's will be improved, but with so many new players who knows how team chemistry will develop, how many guys will stay or transfer, be eligible, etc. This isn't a knock on SJU but just a fact for any program trying to restock a roster in 1 season. There's bound to be attrition and turnover. I remember "UC's Fab Five" back in the '90s with Dontonio Wingfield, Damon Flint, Darnell Burton, Jackson Julson, and some dude named Wolf. Wingfield dominated at times, sat the bench others, gone after one season. Wolf was a nobody. Flint was a versatile wing but safe to say he never lived up to potential. Julson was a fine role player. Only Darnell Burton really shined for 4 years in my opinion.

Again, not trying to throw cold water on St. John's. Enjoy the recruiting resurgence, it's better than the alternative. If everything breaks perfectly for them, it could be a season to remember. Hope for the best, prepare for something different when it comes to recruits living up to the hype is all I'm saying. For all I know, Shaq Thomas could be a total bust. We'll just have to see.

 

[DLo3Lo]

Are you stupid or dumb

Cincy has a good front court that's it. We have dangelo Harrison and Jamal branch. We have better big men than you and we will out rebound you every time we play. Cincy might have a better year because they are older but STJohns is more talented and has a better coach. Cincy a top 10 team? Cincy will be lucky to be in the 15-25 range. You think because you make one sweet 16 it makes you a top 10 team. Ohio made the sweet 16 and no ones saying they are a top 10 team. Cincy is not as good as yall think. Your over rating them. I cant wait to see you all get disappointed when Cincy is struggling to get into the top25.

 

[DLo3Lo]

*Only have a good backcourt

 

[TheLongHaul]

Cincy has a good front court that's it. We have dangelo Harrison and Jamal branch. We have better big men than you and we will out rebound you every time we play. Cincy might have a better year because they are older but STJohns is more talented and has a better coach. Cincy a top 10 team? Cincy will be lucky to be in the 15-25 range. You think because you make one sweet 16 it makes you a top 10 team. Ohio made the sweet 16 and no ones saying they are a top 10 team. Cincy is not as good as yall think. Your over rating them. I cant wait to see you all get disappointed when Cincy is struggling to get into the top25.

The only person that said UC was a top 10 team was BearcatMick and he is the village idiot. IMO Cincy will be a borderline top 25 team. Though the "UC may be better but SJU is more talented" is hysterical. Who gives a damn why a team would be better. If they are better b/c they are older than there isn't anyone to blame but Lavin. He could have built his team and recruited differently.

As for the better coach, only one has gotten fired from their previous coaching job. Hint: it wasn't UC's coach.

 

[Scheids21]

Has lavin proven he can coach? I missed that

 

[Thegreatone]

That's why this site continues to get worse and worse. Rather than getting rid of idiot SJU posters, or idiot posters from other programs, you decide to devote a thread to them. Brilliant. You are correct that you are not a typical moderator. Most of them have common sense and are not morons.

Why chase out some potentially good posters? If they follow the rules they will be fine. Why did you click on this thread after knowing exactly what it was. All the St Johns talk was taking over so I now have it contained.

I am not clear why when you read the first post saying this is all about st johns and if you do not want to read it then move on to the other numerous bearcat threads.

But you are going to get upset with me because you chose to read this thread?

I hope you stay on the board because I think you can bring some good points. I certainly welcome all feedback and I am willing to make adjustments to my style to make the site work. I dont give a shit if you think I am a moron. I am not gonna get upset or ban people for it.

If you dont like or understand our style and you keep coming back I cant help you.

 

[JasonS]

I'd take Mick Cronin over Lavin any day of the week and it isn't even close. Only Lavin could find a way to get fired with all the talent he had at UCLA.

 

[bearcat18]

1. From here on out, UC will pretty much always have the "older" advantage because of Mick's system. Mick has taken the Jamie Dixon approach of having balanced classes of hard-nosed guys that learn how to win as they get older. As with our recent 2013 commits, Mick loves the "under the radar" guys who have a chip on they're shoulder. They're still talented, but they play with that mentality like they're pissed off. I don't care if you think you have more talent. Guess what? Talent doesn't always win.

2. Fantastic forwards in Amir Garret and SirDominic Pointer? What exactly makes them fantastic? The fact that they can dunk a basketball? Neither of them can shoot at all. Maybe they will improve next year but I want to see it happen before they're called fantastic. Averaging 6-7 points when you play 30 mpg isn't that impressive.

3. The Harrison vs. Kilpatrick debate is tough. Both are great players, but you realize why Harrison averaged more points, right? SK played 5 more games than Harrison, and SK only took 11 more shots. Harrison averaged two more shots a game; even though it may not seem like much, it adds up when you get to 32 games.

* Also SK averaged more rebounds, less turnovers, more assists, and more blocks. Harrison's only advantages were points (free throws a big factor - give Harrison credit) and steals. Not sure why you think it's so clear cut Harrison is better besides the homer effect.

4. Branch was a good recruit, but to say he is comparable to Cashmere Wright right now is laughable. Cash will be a starting PG for the fourth year in a row. Let's be serious.

5. I loved Dion Dixon. Love what he did for the program. He made some huge plays in his career. But his stats were so misleading. Just because he was 2nd on the team in scoring doesn't mean he was our 2nd best player. Honestly, replacing him won't be too difficult. He strayed away from his strengths too often and lacked intensity at times.