Temple

[L-T]

disagree. He is a 5th year senior and plays like a frosh 50% of the game. His turnovers are horrible, he is a terrible passer, still a bad outside shooter, and a subpar defender. His spacing sucks and when he gets the ball he looks like he is about to have a spasm. I'd love to know what he does well on this team. I know that sounds bad and Shaq seems like a great person, but on the court he has been a huge disappointment in every way possible.

I think he has played well. We don't agree on this one obviously. Not great....but solid. I still cringe when he goes up to shoot.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Shaq is what Shaq is...not a perfect player. But on this roster, no one coming off the bench deserves more minutes than him imo.

 

[waterhead]

disagree. He is a 5th year senior and plays like a frosh 50% of the game. His turnovers are horrible, he is a terrible passer, still a bad outside shooter, and a subpar defender. His spacing sucks and when he gets the ball he looks like he is about to have a spasm. I'd love to know what he does well on this team. I know that sounds bad and Shaq seems like a great person, but on the court he has been a huge disappointment in every way possible.

Also his passing...he's 3rd on the team compared to the point guards in assists. That's right...next to PG's he's the best in assists.

Subpar defender is inaccurate...he gets subbed all the time for D only. Horrible passer is also inaccurate (assists are up). Looks like he's about to have a spasm is actually accurate. Turnovers could be better but not worse than last year. Rebounding is not bad up from last year. Shooting is MUCH better than last year!

EVERY WAY POSSIBLE...WORSE??? What "eye test" are we using?

 

[jds513]

Waterhead, I know you love your stats, and I think they are valuable too, but they aren't everything. Stats are like skirts: they look good but they hide the essentials. Stats are much better in other sports like baseball where it isn't as much a team sport. They are still very good in basketball but not everything.

Example: On the play I described earlier where Ellis simply let the guy score on him, that doesn't show up in the stat sheet. You cite rebounds often but if a player gets 50% of his rebounds from a missed FT, that does nothing to show that he did or did not do a good job on the glass or provided good effort. Hopefully you understand how stats don't tell the whole story.

Stats can also be manipulated very easily to make a point. Yes Shaq was 2-4 from 3 today but his career averages are terrible and if he was 2-2 at that point then there is high probably that his next shots will be misses to bring him closer to his averages. I wonder if Shaq has ever made three 3 pointers in a game?

Technically, if Shaq is 2-2, and takes a third shot, he is no more likely to miss the third because of the result of the first two. Each shot is its own independent event. Statistics, folks.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Technically, if Shaq is 2-2, and takes a third shot, he is no more likely to miss the third because of the result of the first two. Each shot is its own independent event. Statistics, folks.

Wait, so if I'm at the roulette table and it has been 3 reds in a row, the next isn't guaranteed to be black!?!?

 

[L-T]

Also his passing...he's 3rd on the team compared to the point guards in assists. That's right...next to PG's he's the best in assists.

Subpar defender is inaccurate...he gets subbed all the time for D only. Horrible passer is also inaccurate (assists are up). Looks like he's about to have a spasm is actually accurate. Turnovers could be better but not worse than last year. Rebounding is not bad up from last year. Shooting is MUCH better than last year!

EVERY WAY POSSIBLE???

WH, these guys are playing the eyetest card on me. I'm having trouble shooting down something as solid as the eyetest. I'm trying to stay away from the stats. Maybe longhaul and UCbearcats' personal vision stats have deteriorated....possibly dropping from 20-20 to 20-80 or something. Do we need to expand the stats analysis into that realm to explain why they are not seeing accurately?

 

[waterhead]

WH, these guys are playing the eyetest card on me. I'm having trouble shooting down something as solid as the eyetest. I'm trying to stay away from the stats. Maybe longhaul and UCbearcats' personal vision stats have deteriorated....possibly dropping from 20-20 to 20-80 or something. Do we need to expand the stats analysis into that realm to explain why they are not seeing accurately?

You have to use stats when you are right

 

[rogerOH]

I like Shaq but for a 6'7 world class athlete and 5 years in the program what does he do well , free throws - shot selection -rebound- close out defense-create for others- leadership, nothing that I see.

 

[jds513]

Wait, so if I'm at the roulette table and it has been 3 reds in a row, the next isn't guaranteed to be black!?!?

I think that would mean there is a definite chance that the next 3 will all be black! So bet on black! Always black!

 

[waterhead]

I like Shaq but for a 6'7 world class athlete and 5 years in the program what does he do well , free throws - shot selection -rebound- close out defense-create for others- leadership, nothing that I see.

I'm not sure the best question is what does someone do well but what can others do better. He plays D...he rebounds ok...he shoots ok this year...he's assisting well this year.

I'm not saying he's the answer but he's not the biggest problem by far.

 

[L-T]

I'm not sure the best question is what does someone do well but what can others do better. He plays D...he rebounds ok...he shoots ok this year...he's assisting well this year.

I'm not saying he's the answer but he's not the biggest problem by far.

He epitomizes the Mick era recruit. We're always trying to find the lesser of the evils.

 

[Robert]

Technically, if Shaq is 2-2, and takes a third shot, he is no more likely to miss the third because of the result of the first two. Each shot is its own independent event. Statistics, folks.

That's true in coin flips and roulette, but to play devil's advocate... if you are 2-2 in a game, you're probably feeling it and I would argue you do have a slightly better chance of hitting the next than if you were 0-2. I don't know how that discussion started and I'm sure what I'm saying is irrelevant... just wanted to add.

 

[jds513]

That's true in coin flips and roulette, but to play devil's advocate... if you are 2-2 in a game, you're probably feeling it and I would argue you do have a slightly better chance of hitting the next than if you were 0-2. I don't know how that discussion started and I'm sure what I'm saying is irrelevant... just wanted to add.

You're also more likely to take a bad shot. A heat check if you will. This is a supporting argument for why many people believe that there is no such thing as momentum in sports. Countless articles about it out there on the Internet.

 

[waterhead]

He epitomizes the Mick era recruit. We're always trying to find the lesser of the evils.

We've had two guys in the Cronin era that averaged more than 13.5 points. Vaughn and SK. If this team had SK we would be ready to make a serious run in March.

Troy is starting to step up his game. Hopefully Evans will continue to improve because we will need a couple of guys out there who can make something happen. It would be extremely hard to make a run in March with no go to players.

It would also be nice to see Gary Clark get mean!! I think he could be the other key for us if he asserts his will. I don't know if that will happen this year. Next year we add another pure scorer in Cumberland and get all of these players back...but right now I'm worried about this year.

 

[the_one_32]

I've defended Mick Cronin a lot but right now I'm being tested because with the talent on this team we should be playing a whole lot better. This team should be 10-1 period end of story no excuses. Evans should be starting over Shaq and you can eye test me and stats me all day but fact is Evans is just a better player than Shaq. Capuain is a good scorer and more consistent than Cobb so he needs to play off the ball a little more with Jenifer running the point. Need more short jumpers from Ellis and Clark and better entry passes to the post from guards. Defense is leaving too many open shooters, Mick needs to use his athletes and their length and go to a straight up man to man. The fact we allowed temple to outrebound us the way they did is a joke. There are a lot of problems with this team and it's coaching and it needs to get solved or we will be watching the NIT.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

We've had two guys in the Cronin era that averaged more than 13.5 points. Vaughn and SK. If this team had SK we would be ready to make a serious run in March.

Troy is starting to step up his game. Hopefully Evans will continue to improve because we will need a couple of guys out there who can make something happen. It would be extremely hard to make a run in March with no go to players.

It would also be nice to see Gary Clark get mean!! I think he could be the other key for us if he asserts his will. I don't know if that will happen this year. Next year we add another pure scorer in Cumberland and get all of these players back...but right now I'm worried about this year.

WH it will be just as hard to make a run without a defense stopper or a identity. Years past we had SK, Robles and JJ who could guard multiple positions. Go back and watch the rerun of the game and see how many times Ellis and Clark got caught in a switch and the smaller quicker player went around them for the score. watch how many times on the perimeter are guards went under the screen leaving wide open looks. Unless you plan to score 80 points against good teams I might add you will not be beating quality teams. We are scoring more and getting beat because we are not guarding or rebounding at the levels we have in the past.

 

[the_one_32]

WH it will be just as hard to make a run without a defense stopper or a identity. Years past we had SK, Robles and JJ who could guard multiple positions. Go back and watch the rerun of the game and see how many times Ellis and Clark got caught in a switch and the smaller quicker player went around them for the score. watch how many times on the perimeter are guards went under the screen leaving wide open looks. Unless you plan to score 80 points against good teams I might add you will not be beating quality teams. We are scoring more and getting beat because we are not guarding or rebounding at the levels we have in the past.

Agree 100% but I think some of that is what type of defense Mick is playing. He needs to go back on straight man to man and I think some of that will fix itself.

 

[waterhead]

WH it will be just as hard to make a run without a defense stopper or a identity. Years past we had SK, Robles and JJ who could guard multiple positions. Go back and watch the rerun of the game and see how many times Ellis and Clark got caught in a switch and the smaller quicker player went around them for the score. watch how many times on the perimeter are guards went under the screen leaving wide open looks. Unless you plan to score 80 points against good teams I might add you will not be beating quality teams. We are scoring more and getting beat because we are not guarding or rebounding at the levels we have in the past.

We had a pretty good D last year with the same players. I don't worry too much about them having that capability. What we didn't have last year were go to guys.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I've defended Mick Cronin a lot but right now I'm being tested because with the talent on this team we should be playing a whole lot better. This team should be 10-1 period end of story no excuses. Evans should be starting over Shaq and you can eye test me and stats me all day but fact is Evans is just a better player than Shaq. Capuain is a good scorer and more consistent than Cobb so he needs to play off the ball a little more with Jenifer running the point. Need more short jumpers from Ellis and Clark and better entry passes to the post from guards. Defense is leaving too many open shooters, Mick needs to use his athletes and their length and go to a straight up man to man. The fact we allowed temple to outrebound us the way they did is a joke. There are a lot of problems with this team and it's coaching and it needs to get solved or we will be watching the NIT.

Agree with a lot of what you said but would like to add a few things.

I do agree Evans should start over Shaq. Shaq is my role player. Defensive stopper and versatile enough to play the 3 and the 4 at times.

JJ is not going to help us defensively and if we do not get deflections and rebound better pushing the pace will be hard to do. I really do not know what to think of JJ because I have not seen him enough against good competition to know what he is capable of. I'll defer to Mick because he sees him against our guys everyday.

Coaching is a issue for me as well. Putting people in the right positions to excel is a big part of the job. Don't think Mick has accomplished that this year. One example is defining some roles for the guys.

 

[waterhead]

I've defended Mick Cronin a lot but right now I'm being tested because with the talent on this team we should be playing a whole lot better. This team should be 10-1 period end of story no excuses. Evans should be starting over Shaq and you can eye test me and stats me all day but fact is Evans is just a better player than Shaq. Capuain is a good scorer and more consistent than Cobb so he needs to play off the ball a little more with Jenifer running the point. Need more short jumpers from Ellis and Clark and better entry passes to the post from guards. Defense is leaving too many open shooters, Mick needs to use his athletes and their length and go to a straight up man to man. The fact we allowed temple to outrebound us the way they did is a joke. There are a lot of problems with this team and it's coaching and it needs to get solved or we will be watching the NIT.

I did fact check that and you're good on that one

Problem is Shaq is still very useful whether Evans starts or not. Right now KJ is not very useful. Moore is not useful right now. I think Jenifer CAN be but not right now.