The Classic

[david aka the TYZ]

Ughhhh, I hate losing to Xavier. I had to read the game thread before going to bed so I wouldn't have to relive it tomorrow. It was a frustrating game to say the least. We should be embarrassed. This team simply does not have the balls to step up their games when it matters. I know Xavier hit their shots at a ridiculous clip tonight, part of that is luck, but part of that is stepping up your game when it matters. This is a heated rivalry, we came out timid and they came out confident. They made their shots, we didn't. I was defending our team after the game (to UC fans) saying we aren't as bad as we played tonight and I really don't think we are, but once again we are faced with no inside presence and that results in a jump shooting team. And jump shooting teams get hot and cold. We couldn't miss vs. USC Upstate, tonight we couldn't hit anything, including free throws. We fought hard, which we always do, we just are inept on offense and when you play a team that can't miss from the field you are going to be in trouble. Tonight was the perfect storm for us to be whallopped. And of course it happened vs. Xavier. I hate losing to Xavier, it just makes their fans more self-righteous and lets them gloat. The season is not lost. We definitely need to go out Tuesday and get a W. It's as close to a must win as you can have in the early part of a season. And for God's sake make your free throws. We missed the front end of every one-and-one except one. I'm afraid to look at the box score, but if I had to guess I'd say we shot what, 40% on free throws and maybe 25% from the field? And I'm sure X hit well over 50% from the field. I know their 3-point shooting had to be about 75%. Just an ugly game to witness. At least I didn't get any crap from X fans at the arena or at the bar afterwards.

We have two ways to go from here. Get dejected and down on ourselves or know we got embarrassed and make sure it doesn't happen again. We need to attack the basket more. This is our best hope. Parker needs to get in there and toughen Thomas up. He needs to quit the streetball and get to the line. He's more worried about getting his shot off than drawing contact. I single him out because he has the talent. Lawrence needs to learn this, too. I'll give him a year to toughen up and learn the game before I harp on him too much, though. Caupain, Johnson, Killa and Guyn understand this. They know they can put their head down, drive and get to the line. Rubles, too. Jackson is 50-50, he smart enought to draw a foul he just can't be trusted to dribble the ball. I'm as frustrated as everybody else on here, but I know we aren't going to face many teams this year that shot as well as X did tonight nor will we shoot as bad as we did tonight too often (hopefully). We got a long road ahead of us and some adjustments certainly need to be made. I was at least glad to see Cronin get fired up and throw his coat and draw a T. The refs certainly blew some calls early which didn't help us when we lost the game in the first ten minutes, but at the end of the day, X got called for a more fouls than we did and I can't say they really called the game unfairly. I'm not sure what Jackson's foul was to start the game, but calling an off the ball foul 14 seconds into the game? Really? For those that watched at home, was it that blatant a foul that it need to be whistled? I kind of knew at that moment, 14 seconds in and JJ gets an off-the ball foul that things weren't in the cards for us tonight.

 

[IDC]

Lets not forget Thomas air balling a FT to the side! I don't think I've ever seen that before.

They flat out didn't show up. I said at the start of the 2nd half, I would be ok with SK putting up 20 shots in the 2nd half if that meant no one else took a shot.

Sanders has the worst, slow, shot I have ever seen. I don't know what he brings, glad Thomas got the minutes tonight, despite some of his errors.

JJ and TR are really disappointing. 4 pts between them will not cut it.

Play Caupain 30+ minutes and play Johnson as much as possible (will be more difficult to get minutes behind SK)

Mick, please use JD3 scholly on a shooter. He's already playing unathletic guys like Sanders, so surely he can find a guy that can put the ball in the basket.

At least next year we'll have size, so hopefully our rebounding will improve. When you play solid D, you need to be able to rebound. That's another big reason why we suck so far.

I wasn't even mad after the game, I was actually laughing at their ineptitude.

 

[waterhead]

Really?! You wanna justify Sk. He falls short when we need him. End off story. Also, I am done justifying Cronin. Offensively he is done.

I'mm sorry but this is completely bogus. SK gets the business defensively when we play good opponents and we have nobody else who is capable of putting the team on their shoulders. That means SK is going to be the SOLE focal point of opposing D's. In two big games SK has still managed to agerage about 18 pts. Call him a volume shooter I don't care...he's basically all we got.

CAlling out SK is ridiculous. If we had ANY compliments to SK he would be much more effecient and you don't have to look much furterh than the first 7 games. We played against crap opponents which let the rest of our guys be more productive allowing SK to be more effecient.

I hate to say it but unless we play Pitt well...I am looking 2 years down the road.

 

[waterhead]

The leader is Cronin, and it's on him. Year after year it's the same damn thing. Add in wasted scholarships and this is what you get.

I agree...ultimately it is on Cronin. As the eternal optimist, who claims to be a realist, I still look to the last two recruiting classes with hope. If the next 4 years don't pan out I will be calling for a Cronin firing. But...BUT...in the mean time we do have what looks to be SOME offensive players coming in at most positions.

At the post we will have Strickland, Debarry, and maybe Moore who are all more offensive than they are defensive.

At the PF we will have Lawrence, Moore and maybe Clark. Mostly offensive player but a couple of good defenders here.

At the wing...Thomas and Clark...some decent offense and defense.

At the SG. KJ and DM...again decent offense but great defense.

At PG...TC looks to be a comptetent player on offense. We will need to get one more PG in the next two classes.


It's not all doom and gloom just yet for me...but if we don't get anywhere in 4 years it will be. Cronin has a job for the forseeable future but in 4 years with no improvement his job will be on the line.

 

[bearcat jeff]

This team needs a couple guys who can knock down open shots. Be that long range or mid-range you have to make teams pay when they leave you open.

 

[#BearcatNation]

I was at the game and can't even begin to describe how bummed out I was, so I'm not even going to dive into the performance on the court.

I did think, though, that US Bank Arena would be a really cool home arena for UC. I was in the upper deck courtside and my seats seemed FAR better than that spot at FTA. They were comfy, soft chairs (not a bench without a back), and the rafters didn't hang low. If they were to lower the court a little (below sitting on the hockey rink where it was last night) so the lower baseline seats weren't flat chairs, I think everybody has a great view. Now, I don't know if it'd be good for our students or our fanbase, but I think moving it down there with a revamp of the arena seriously improves the viewing of the game aspect. Hell, US Bank in its current state trumps FTA if you ask me.

 

[Robert]

I was at the game and can't even begin to describe how bummed out I was, so I'm not even going to dive into the performance on the court.

I did think, though, that US Bank Arena would be a really cool home arena for UC. I was in the upper deck courtside and my seats seemed FAR better than that spot at FTA. They were comfy, soft chairs (not a bench without a back), and the rafters didn't hang low. If they were to lower the court a little (below sitting on the hockey rink where it was last night) so the lower baseline seats weren't flat chairs, I think everybody has a great view. Now, I don't know if it'd be good for our students or our fanbase, but I think moving it down there with a revamp of the arena seriously improves the viewing of the game aspect. Hell, US Bank in its current state trumps FTA if you ask me.

Problem with US Bank is that it's a hockey arena... I don't like how the end seats are so far from the court and the sideline seats on the ends don't point anywhere near the court.

 

[L-T]

I agree...ultimately it is on Cronin. As the eternal optimist, who claims to be a realist, I still look to the last two recruiting classes with hope. If the next 4 years don't pan out I will be calling for a Cronin firing. But...BUT...in the mean time we do have what looks to be SOME offensive players coming in at most positions.

At the post we will have Strickland, Debarry, and maybe Moore who are all more offensive than they are defensive.

At the PF we will have Lawrence, Moore and maybe Clark. Mostly offensive player but a couple of good defenders here.

At the wing...Thomas and Clark...some decent offense and defense.

At the SG. KJ and DM...again decent offense but great defense.

At PG...TC looks to be a comptetent player on offense. We will need to get one more PG in the next two classes.


It's not all doom and gloom just yet for me...but if we don't get anywhere in 4 years it will be. Cronin has a job for the forseeable future but in 4 years with no improvement his job will be on the line.

4 more years? Are you kidding? We've already been relagated to mid-major status. Our fanbase is fractured. Xavier is embarrassing us after struggling to beat Evansville at home. He has put one single player in the NBA and that is the guy who left after playing a single year before Mick could mess with his offensive skills. He hasn't recruited a single great shooter in 9 recruiting classes. His big guys have been an embarrassment. His players never improve substantially. No All-Americans. We've rarely been ranked. We've gotten zero high seeds in the NCAA. No elite 8s. No Final 4s. Patsy schedules. Half full arenas. No top 10 recruiting clsses. Five years ago, everyone said he should get 6 years. We're in year 8 with year 9 looking no better. You really want 4 more years of this?

 

[#BearcatNation]

Problem with US Bank is that it's a hockey arena... I don't like how the end seats are so far from the court and the sideline seats on the ends don't point anywhere near the court.

Seems like an unfair excuse IMO. There's countless arenas throughout the country that play hockey and basketball in the same arena. The court is just lowered, so the baseline and courtside seats right by the court can be pulled out and make up the ground that you see when the court is placed right on the rink. I'm sure they can architecturally make it look good.

 

[JackBauer151]

4 more years? Are you kidding? We've already been relagated to mid-major status. Our fanbase is fractured. Xavier is embarrassing us after struggling to beat Evansville at home. He has put one single player in the NBA and that is the guy who left after playing a single year before Mick could mess with his offensive skills. He hasn't recruited a single great shooter in 9 recruiting classes. His big guys have been an embarrassment. His players never improve substantially. No All-Americans. We've rarely been ranked. We've gotten zero high seeds in the NCAA. No elite 8s. No Final 4s. Patsy schedules. Half full arenas. No top 10 recruiting clsses. Five years ago, everyone said he should get 6 years. We're in year 8 with year 9 looking no better. You really want 4 more years of this?

I understand your frustration. Im extremely frustrated too. Even though I think think your classification of UC being relegated to a mid major program is an extreme over dramafication compared to what reality is. (Ranked in the top 25 for 4 straight years, more wins than anybody in the country over ranked opponents two years ago, one of only 20 teams to make the NCAA tournament 3 straight years while doing it in the toughest conference in America, Sweet 16, went to big east championship, and so on and so on) All of those things arent traits of a "Mid Major" program. However there is no doubt Mick has a serious problem with the way his team plays offense. He can talk about toughness all he wants and defense but if your team can not score 60 let alone 70 points you just are going to lose a lot of close games and look ugly doing it. He needs to recruit better, which I think he has done in the last two classes, especially on offense. My question is who would UC be able to get to replace him? Who wants this job? The athletic department has no money to hire anybody that would have a better resume than Mick. Outdated arena, mediocre fan base, limited budget, new shitty league, and just fired a coach with this record: Mick Cronin's record at UC:

2006-08: 24-38
2008-10: 37-30
2010-now: 78-31

Like I said before I understand the frustration with this program and I feel it too. However the grass is not always greener on the other side. I just want Mick to do a better job. I think he has what it takes to get us to the next level we just need a few things to be tweaked. There is nothing wrong with high expectation which I think is what you are getting at. From where we came from when he took over I am grateful to be relevant. I know that's accepting something that is so called less than but I would rather be relevant with a guy who is still getting us to tournaments and getting better and better recruiting classes than take a chance and go back to the Tony Yates years. I understand where you are coming from but with the options being so limited I think getting rid of Cronin would be a major mistake.

 

[UCBearcats]

I don't agree that UC is mid-major status but every other fact that L-T just listed in his post is true. It's also true that Xavier is now a better program than us. Mick took over a crappy situation, but he hasn't elevated this program to a level where it needs to be.

The attitude that we should just keep him because you don't think we can do any better is stupid. I'm sure our AD, who has proven himself to be pretty capable so far, has a well thought out short list ready at all times. I'm also sure that anyone who says we don't have the money is full of crap. We have the money, we certainly had the money to go out and hire TT and make him the 14th highest paid coach in college football. We've got new revenue projected to being rolling into the program starting in 2014 and if there is one thing our AD and President have shown it's that they understand you have to spend money to make money. I'm not saying they will or would even consider it but believe me, if they made the decision to move on from Mick they'd have both the resources and the money to go out and get a guy they think will make an impact. There are up and coming coaches out there who would be chomping at the bit for their chance to coach at a program like UC.

 

[JackBauer151]

I dont disagree with a lot of what you said. However you assume an up and coming coach would stay. What if he does all these great things you expect and bolts for the newest gig that pays him more money. Then what? I like stability. I like winning. I like going to the tournament. I like being in the top 25 consistently. I like graduating players. I like knowing the coach is a UC grad who wants to win here. Im not going to apologize for supporting a guy who resurrected the program I love and has won a lot of games and represents it with class. No one is above criticism and he deserves every bit he is getting right now. However Im not willing to give up on a guy who has accomplished all the things I listed in the last post just to satisfy over reactionary fans after a loss to a crosstown rival. Also can we please stop with this XU has surpassed us as a program bullshit. They have played in a mickey mouse conference for years and as I remember they were in the NIT last year while we went dancing in the toughest conference in America.

 

[UCBearcats]

I dont disagree with a lot of what you said. However you assume an up and coming coach would stay. What if he does all these great things you expect and bolts for the newest gig that pays him more money. Then what? I like stability. I like winning. I like going to the tournament. I like being in the top 25 consistently. I like graduating players. I like knowing the coach is a UC grad who wants to win here. Im not going to apologize for supporting a guy who resurrected the program I love and has won a lot of games and represents it with class. No one is above criticism and he deserves every bit he is getting right now. However Im not willing to give up on a guy who has accomplished all the things I listed in the last post just to satisfy over reactionary fans after a loss to a crosstown rival. Also can we please stop with this XU has surpassed us as a program bullshit. They have played in a mickey mouse conference for years and as I remember they were in the NIT last year while we went dancing in the toughest conference in America.

I assume a coach would stay and you assume he would leave. So what??? Xavier had coaches leave and were able to come out on top. Lots of programs have dealt with coaches leaving and haven't fallen in irrelevancy like UC has. If your only reason for why Mick should keep his job is because we can't do better or the next guy would leave then that's just depressing.

Plus we aren't ranked in the Top 25 consistently. No one is asking you to apologize for supporting Mick, if you like him that's great. I think it's way past time for his supporters to stop acting like the guys who don't support him are crazy. It's been long enough, and UC basketball just isn't that good under Mick Cronin.

 

[JackBauer151]

I assume a coach would stay and you assume he would leave. So what??? Xavier had coaches leave and were able to come out on top. Lots of programs have dealt with coaches leaving and haven't fallen in irrelevancy like UC has. If your only reason for why Mick should keep his job is because we can't do better or the next guy would leave then that's just depressing.

Plus we aren't ranked in the Top 25 consistently. No one is asking you to apologize for supporting Mick, if you like him that's great. I think it's way past time for his supporters to stop acting like the guys who don't support him are crazy. It's been long enough, and UC basketball just isn't that good under Mick Cronin.

Well that is not my only argument. That's far from my only argument. All of the things I listed in my first post are my main arguments. How are they irrelevant??? You still have not given any facts. You just keep talking about your perception of the program. We have been ranked in the top 25 each year since Lance's freshman year. That would be 4 years in a row and we are only 9 games into this season. That sounds pretty consistent to me. One of only 20 some teams in the country has made the tournament the last 3 years. Sure doesnt sound irrelevant to me. Beat more ranked teams than anybody in the country just two years ago. Doesnt sound irrelevant to me. You are not crazy if that is not good enough for you. If you dont want to support the coach that is your choice and you have every right to feel that way. We disagree obviously and we all evaluate a person's performance against our own certain criteria. He obviously is not meeting yours. That's fine. I just get frustrated at the credit he doesnt get for the things he has accomplished. We just disagree that a change is needed or a good idea.

 

[UCBearcats]

Well that is not my only argument. That's far from my only argument. All of the things I listed in my first post are my main arguments. How are they irrelevant??? You still have not given any facts. You just keep talking about your perception of the program. We have been ranked in the top 25 each year since Lance's freshman year. That would be 4 years in a row and we are only 9 games into this season. That sounds pretty consistent to me. One of only 20 some teams in the country has made the tournament the last 3 years. Sure doesnt sound irrelevant to me. Beat more ranked teams than anybody in the country just two years ago. Doesnt sound irrelevant to me. You are not crazy if that is not good enough for you. If you dont want to support the coach that is your choice and you have every right to feel that way. We disagree obviously and we all evaluate a person's performance against our own certain criteria. He obviously is not meeting yours. That's fine. I just get frustrated at the credit he doesnt get for the things he has accomplished. We just disagree that a change is needed or a good idea.

That's fine man, none of what I've said has been directed at you. My origional post was to say that I agreed with the facts that LT posted other than us being a mid-major team so I'm not sure what facts you're looking for from me.

The things LT listed pretty much sum it up. I'm not saying Mick is a terrible coach or he's done the worst job ever, I'm just saying it's not good enough for me.

I gave this example the other day, but Arizona really feels comparable to me. We were very comparable programs when Olsen and Huggs were at the helm and both schools had rough transitions that put their programs bad situations. After a few years of the wrong hire and some decent teams Arizona made a bold move and it's paying off now. Don't be afraid to make a bold move.

Someone just posted in another thread about Bruce Pearl, you can laugh at that if you want but that would be the best move UC could ever make. We'd INSTANTLY improve this program. Sometimes you have to make a bold move and I hope UC does.

 

[JackBauer151]

If they fired Mick Cronin tomorrow and hired Bruce Pearl I cant say I would have much of an argument or at least a problem with it. While Pearl made some dumb ass mistakes right in the middle of having that program humming he has proven to be a winner at the highest level. I dont see that happening though and think they would hire an unproven up and coming guy which at this point I am not willing to trade what we have for that risk. Pearl had some of the best facilities in the country at Tennessee and an unlimited budget. Im just worried about recruiting from UC's standpoint no matter who the coach is until we improve some key parts of our athletic program. You could definitely sell Pearl to me and Im guessing the fan base as a whole. Just think that is a long shot.

 

[waterhead]

4 more years? Are you kidding? We've already been relagated to mid-major status. Our fanbase is fractured. Xavier is embarrassing us after struggling to beat Evansville at home. He has put one single player in the NBA and that is the guy who left after playing a single year before Mick could mess with his offensive skills. He hasn't recruited a single great shooter in 9 recruiting classes. His big guys have been an embarrassment. His players never improve substantially. No All-Americans. We've rarely been ranked. We've gotten zero high seeds in the NCAA. No elite 8s. No Final 4s. Patsy schedules. Half full arenas. No top 10 recruiting clsses. Five years ago, everyone said he should get 6 years. We're in year 8 with year 9 looking no better. You really want 4 more years of this?

I don't want 4 more years of mediocrity. It would be real tough for the AD to fire him in the next two years because of recent success and NCAA appearances unless the wheels completely come off. He's the winningest coach in the country for his age.

What I would do is basically irrelevant. Provided he keeps his teams teetering around the top 25 I am willing to see what he can do with these last two classes because they seem more like the players he has been looking for.

 

[Bearcat04]

I gave this example the other day, but Arizona really feels comparable to me. We were very comparable programs when Olsen and Huggs were at the helm and both schools had rough transitions that put their programs bad situations. After a few years of the wrong hire and some decent teams Arizona made a bold move and it's paying off now. Don't be afraid to make a bold move.

The two programs are not comparable though. Arizona has a much bigger budget, great fan support, and a seat in a top conference. They are keeping up with the Joneses, while UC is not. Our fans have always had a champagne taste on a beer budget when it comes to basketball. I'm not even sure Marquette's recent success would be good enough to satisfy some around here... and they have a 40% larger budget and play in an NBA arena!

 

[XUArizona]

Welcome to where XU fans were last year after we lost. Except for the fire our coach part.

Recruiting matters, and most programs have one dud class of recruits. It's when you string 2-3 classes together you start to have problems. XU was there last year. Classes with Jeff Robinson, Martin/Canty/McKenzie/Latham, Wells/Davis, then last year's Christon/Farr. Mack's first 3 only saw Justin Martin (he is good and bad) and Dee Davis (good and bad times). We have either transfers or older players who are inconsistent.

You can't miss on 2-3 classes in a row. XU did and now UC has. Now XU has this years class Reynolds/Davis/Randolph/Richards and next years class London/Sumner/O'Mara/Macura/Blueitt. Those two even if we miss on a few recruits will give us a great punch for 2-4 years.

All UC has to do is hit on some of the kids in this years crop of Freshmen and hit on a few next year and your ship will be righted like XU's was.

Remember, when you rely on youth it will let you down to start with. Myles Davis, James Farr, Jalen Reynolds, and Brandon Randolph will all be good players in the next few years. As will Caupain, Lawrence, and Thomas.

 

[UCBearcats]

The two programs are not comparable though. Arizona has a much bigger budget, great fan support, and a seat in a top conference. They are keeping up with the Joneses, while UC is not. Our fans have always had a champagne taste on a beer budget when it comes to basketball. I'm not even sure Marquette's recent success would be good enough to satisfy some around here... and they have a 40% larger budget and play in an NBA arena!

I hate the budget argument especially when no one ever has any facts to back up their blanket statements. First of all UC has enough money to fund their programs and be competitive. Our bball program can and will make money if the fan base is energized by the product on display. You can't put a mediocre product on the floor and expect that the fans are going to give you tremendous support. Up until this season we were in a big conference too, so we should have been keeping up with the Jones' as well.

College BBall much like football is mostly about coaching and leadership. You can have a huge athletic budget and a poor team. A good coach is a good coach is a good coach. Bring excitement back to UC bball and you'll bring the fans back, regardless of the arena or anything else. Bring the fans back and you bring some dollars back into the program.

The money is there and the promise to earn more money is there. What's not there right now is the excitement or buy in from the fan base and that's because the level of success necessary to generate the buzz isn't there.

We're on the road to nowhere right now, so we can either continue down this path or make a bold move and change our future.