What have we learned?

[waterhead]

For all those fans who suggest we are a horrible shooting team because we have had some awful nights from 3 pt land...I am curious what you feel about our 5 best games.

34 of 78 (43.5%)

How do we have 50% of our games average out to that number if we don't have the talent to do it? Anomaly?

To be fair our 5 worst games are beyond awful...I'm just sayin...clearly we have the ability to shoot, at the very least, "serviceable" from beyond the arc.

 

[waterhead]

Lol. Not a blind guess. I just recall going 2-13, 2-14, and like 2-19 or something. And didn't realize we shot 22 3s in that Cobb game. I just don't care enough to look stuff like that up. Thank you for researching that though. I'm glad you took that all into account before posting it. I stand corrected. Just to be clear though, starting a post with "not sure" isn't exactly an assertion.

LOL...I understand. I get it. But this is how I am wired. Objective numbers rather than subjective opinion. I am also geared mostly to find subjective pessimism that isn't based in objective reality...but I will call out the optimist as well

 

[L-T]

You probably should have researched that before just blindly guessing and then making assertions on top of it. They shot 78 attempts on the five best and five worst nights. Exactly equal.

You are proving my point that some fans would rather not look at things objectively...they just go with their gut feel about things which is often wrong. Gut feel after a bad game is going to be worse than reality (especially for the pessimist) and gut feel after a good game is going to be better than reality (especially for the optimist).

Lol, I am one of the few who researches everything, provides endless stats to support my argument, attends every single game, have been invested in the program over a half century, understands every single facet of the program, has good friends who attend every practice, has 2 sons and a daughter-in-law employed within the athletic department, and yet I'm supposedly the most irrational on here....lol. On this forum, it doesn't matter how rational and objective you are, if you don't love Mick Cronin, you're irrational......bottom line.

 

[JackBauer151]

Lol, I am one of the few who researches everything, provides endless stats to support my argument, attends every single game, have been invested in the program over a half century, understands every single facet of the program, has good friends who attend every practice, has 2 sons and a daughter-in-law employed within the athletic department, and yet I'm supposedly the most irrational on here....lol. On this forum, it doesn't matter how rational and objective you are, if you don't love Mick Cronin, you're irrational......bottom line.

That is utter bullshit and you know it. You have every right to dislike the coach. Just as those of us who stand behind him and his vision for the program have every right to defend him. I think you've made some very valid points about Mick's short comings as a coach so far. You do, at times, pile it on though. You do short change what has been accomplished. You say it's because you have "higher" expectations than the rest of us. That is really my only problem with your approach to the program. I look at the results and progress of the program in conjunction with what resources are being given to the program. The entirety of Mick's tenure the program has been behind the 8 ball. Death penalty, underfunded, second rate facilities, fractured fan base, shitty recruiting budget, and three different presidents and AD's. I feel he has overachieved with what he has been given. I want the program to be where you want it to be. However in the current state I'm not sure its capable of that. Get a new arena, increase the budget, get mick a plane, improve fan experience to get the casual fan back, and get the program into a power 5 conference and I'm right there with you. It matches what Louisville has been able to do and we should expect what louisville fans expect. Until those things change Mick is doing what he has to do with less to try to win. So far those results are better than they should be in my opinion and it's why I defend him.

 

[L-T]

For all those fans who suggest we are a horrible shooting team because we have had some awful nights from 3 pt land...I am curious what you feel about our 5 best games.

34 of 78 (43.5%)

How do we have 50% of our games average out to that number if we don't have the talent to do it? Anomaly?

To be fair our 5 worst games are beyond awful...I'm just sayin...clearly we have the ability to shoot, at the very least, "serviceable" from beyond the arc.

WH, we've played 4 teams that really mean anything.....Mississippi, Nebraska, SDSU, and Virginia Commonwealth. In those 4 games we're 12-62 or 19%. If we shot lights out against the Little Sisters of the Poor, whoopee!. The teams on the remainder of the schedule (outside of Wagner) are more like the 4 above.

I tend to agree with you though that we'll get better. I still believe we've got some players with a much higher ceiling than what we're presently witnessing. It's a little mind-boggeling to watch what's going on now. Quadri Moore will be a great shooter and the sooner he finds the rest of his game, the better. His ability to shoot is sorely needed on this team and he needs to do whatever it takes to earn more playing time. I still believe there's a huge issue in general with recruiting.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

People (for the most part) on here aren't just being pessimistic bc of losing games. It is HOW we are losing games. I personally was encouraged after the Ole Miss game bc of how we fought back from being down 20+. But we just haven't shown any growth. I asked the other day to name an area where we have improved and got nothing. This is a results oriented business and simply put, I have expectations for this program and they are not being met. And as far as I'm concerned, any alleged reason given for the lackluster play is no more than an excuse. There is no excuse for ever losing to Nebraska and there is no excuse for ever being blown out at home. Something's gotta give. Running the same guys out there game after game at this point isn't enough to change anything. It has been pointed out many times that the 2011 class is killing us. Well if those guys can't get it done, then why are we still running them out there? If that class is that bad (which it is) then you definitely can't answer that question with "bc we have no one else" unless you are admitting that the subsequent classes have been just as poor. If we are going to lose games that we as a program have no business losing, then we might as well let guys like Quadri start playing 20 minutes per game. At least the hopes of him having a bright future here haven't been completely dashed.

 

[L-T]

That is utter bullshit and you know it. You have every right to dislike the coach. Just as those of us who stand behind him and his vision for the program have every right to defend him. I think you've made some very valid points about Mick's short comings as a coach so far. You do, at times, pile it on though. You do short change what has been accomplished. You say it's because you have "higher" expectations than the rest of us. That is really my only problem with your approach to the program. I look at the results and progress of the program in conjunction with what resources are being given to the program. The entirety of Mick's tenure the program has been behind the 8 ball. Death penalty, underfunded, second rate facilities, fractured fan base, shitty recruiting budget, and three different presidents and AD's. I feel he has overachieved with what he has been given. I want the program to be where you want it to be. However in the current state I'm not sure its capable of that. Get a new arena, increase the budget, get mick a plane, improve fan experience to get the casual fan back, and get the program into a power 5 conference and I'm right there with you. It matches what Louisville has been able to do and we should expect what louisville fans expect. Until those things change Mick is doing what he has to do with less to try to win. So far those results are better than they should be in my opinion and it's why I defend him.

JB, you stated your case very well. I understand why you think the way you do. As far as me piling it on, I'm typically the lone ranger on my side of the argument. You guys can sit back and wait for others to pile on. I'm often going at it alone, so yes, I have to keep posting my responses. Lately, the tide has turned and more people are expressing frustrations. You and I want the same for the program. The difference is, you want to wait until the program gives Mick everything to help him, which might take forever. Some coaches can produce amazing results in spite of obstacles. Nine years is a fair length of time. We win, but we're sitting outside the elite programs and conferences with our nose pressed against the window hoping that someone will want us. I don't see the type of recruiting that will ever change this. We keep saying that recruiting is getting better, but the results on the floor don't reflect it. I'm pretty much numb to it all now. I just buy my tickets and go watch the games and wait and hope for things to get better. After Va. Commonwealth, better days seem a long way away.

 

[Weez1414]

I thought you said in another post you were done with UC. Go take your Harrell jersey and cry about some more things you can't change. You're the type of fans that make UC unenjoyable. Bye bye.

Typical yeah it's my fault. It's not that their football team outscores theres basketball team is it? Yes thats sarcasm. You cant possibly like the talent and offensive scheme. If you do your
expectations needs adjusted. Everyone and their brother talks about parody and talent everywhere. Where's it here. And IM not talking just cuz this loss it's the whole product. He has done good things but I think the ceilings hit

 

[Bulldog01]

Morman shot a corner three a few games ago, it went off the side of the backboard.

Lol. He shot a airball couple feet in from 3pt line in last game.

 

[Bulldog01]

For all those fans who suggest we are a horrible shooting team because we have had some awful nights from 3 pt land...I am curious what you feel about our 5 best games.

34 of 78 (43.5%)

How do we have 50% of our games average out to that number if we don't have the talent to do it? Anomaly?

To be fair our 5 worst games are beyond awful...I'm just sayin...clearly we have the ability to shoot, at the very least, "serviceable" from beyond the arc.

who were 5 best shooting games against?

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

What I have learned is we still need a PG. While I think TC and Cobb are adequate both are more off guard then PG.

Shaq while having some physical capabilities, we really don't have the PG neccessary to take full advantage of his strenghts which can only come into play when pushing the pace. At this time i would rather have Sanders positioned on the wing setting up for a three then Shaq.

Clark and Ellis are nice inside pieces but both need minutes and time to improve. Both have their moments but they need to be more cosistent and having a PG who can get them the ball would be helpful.

Moore and Morman are very interesting players. One only plays offense and the other only plays defense. Hopefully both will improve their short comings.

KJ is a mess right now. He has confidence and TO issues. Lots of talent but needs to work on mental side of game.

DeBerry is very interesting. Really haven't seen enough to know what he brings other then insurance against Ellis being in foul trouble.

At the end of the day we lost much of our offense from last year and a huge chunck of our defense. Still think the team gets better but with Mick facing significant time off I have my doubts.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Waite, you bring up an interesting observation about Morman and Moore. The fact that Morman plays more minutes than Quadri unfortunately tells me all I need to know. Jack has pointed out that Mick has recruited more offensive minded players. That may be true but there is still a big problem...we don't give those guys a chance to flourish unless/until they conform to a defensive style. I'm afraid we are at serious risk of stunting Moore's growth. He is already at the point where he is passing up wide open looks bc he is so damn worried about what it takes just to get on the floor that he doesn't have the confidence to play his natural game. I may be borrowing trouble, but I can see him being just like KJ next year with his confidence. Then some will try to explain it away by saying things like "he doesn't have a lot of experience yet". Well let's nip that potential problem in the bud right now, play through the pain and put the kid on the floor. If we're ever going to make a serious run, he will be more of a reason why than Guyn, Sanders or Shaq. I was against Clark playing the 3 this year, but screw it, we need to make we shots. And Quadri can make shots. I'd rather have a guy out there that doesn't live up to Mick's defensive standards than a guy who doesn't live up to ANYONE's offensive standards.

 

[L-T]

Waite, you bring up an interesting observation about Morman and Moore. The fact that Morman plays more minutes than Quadri unfortunately tells me all I need to know. Jack has pointed out that Mick has recruited more offensive minded players. That may be true but there is still a big problem...we don't give those guys a chance to flourish unless/until they conform to a defensive style. I'm afraid we are at serious risk of stunting Moore's growth. He is already at the point where he is passing up wide open looks bc he is so damn worried about what it takes just to get on the floor that he doesn't have the confidence to play his natural game. I may be borrowing trouble, but I can see him being just like KJ next year with his confidence. Then some will try to explain it away by saying things like "he doesn't have a lot of experience yet". Well let's nip that potential problem in the bud right now, play through the pain and put the kid on the floor. If we're ever going to make a serious run, he will be more of a reason why than Guyn, Sanders or Shaq. I was against Clark playing the 3 this year, but screw it, we need to make we shots. And Quadri can make shots. I'd rather have a guy out there that doesn't live up to Mick's defensive standards than a guy who doesn't live up to ANYONE's offensive standards.

Good thoughts JKD. I agree.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Waite, you bring up an interesting observation about Morman and Moore. The fact that Morman plays more minutes than Quadri unfortunately tells me all I need to know. Jack has pointed out that Mick has recruited more offensive minded players. That may be true but there is still a big problem...we don't give those guys a chance to flourish unless/until they conform to a defensive style. I'm afraid we are at serious risk of stunting Moore's growth. He is already at the point where he is passing up wide open looks bc he is so damn worried about what it takes just to get on the floor that he doesn't have the confidence to play his natural game. I may be borrowing trouble, but I can see him being just like KJ next year with his confidence. Then some will try to explain it away by saying things like "he doesn't have a lot of experience yet". Well let's nip that potential problem in the bud right now, play through the pain and put the kid on the floor. If we're ever going to make a serious run, he will be more of a reason why than Guyn, Sanders or Shaq. I was against Clark playing the 3 this year, but screw it, we need to make we shots. And Quadri can make shots. I'd rather have a guy out there that doesn't live up to Mick's defensive standards than a guy who doesn't live up to ANYONE's offensive standards.

jacob this is a rebuilding year in my opinion. As i pointed out we lost a huge part of the team from last year. Would rather the kids learn their position and get better then forcing someone to play out of position especially when he needs work at the one he is playing.My expectation is the kids play both offense and defense. Moore is horrible defensively and needs work, Morman needs work offensively. This is big boy basketball. If confidence is going to be shattered because their playing time is based on performance they need to play at a lower level.Both are seeing the floor. They need to make the most of their opportunities just like everyone else.

 

[JackBauer151]

Waite, you bring up an interesting observation about Morman and Moore. The fact that Morman plays more minutes than Quadri unfortunately tells me all I need to know. Jack has pointed out that Mick has recruited more offensive minded players. That may be true but there is still a big problem...we don't give those guys a chance to flourish unless/until they conform to a defensive style. I'm afraid we are at serious risk of stunting Moore's growth. He is already at the point where he is passing up wide open looks bc he is so damn worried about what it takes just to get on the floor that he doesn't have the confidence to play his natural game. I may be borrowing trouble, but I can see him being just like KJ next year with his confidence. Then some will try to explain it away by saying things like "he doesn't have a lot of experience yet". Well let's nip that potential problem in the bud right now, play through the pain and put the kid on the floor. If we're ever going to make a serious run, he will be more of a reason why than Guyn, Sanders or Shaq. I was against Clark playing the 3 this year, but screw it, we need to make we shots. And Quadri can make shots. I'd rather have a guy out there that doesn't live up to Mick's defensive standards than a guy who doesn't live up to ANYONE's offensive standards.

This is a false comparison. Quadri and Morman do not play the same position. If they did I could see where you were coming from. You are saying you want the offense over the defense. I get that. But I think it will mean more losses than wins. This team is a long way from being a good offensive team because the guard play has been so bad. Not the stretch 4 position. Now you want to give the worst defensive player on the team more minutes because of his offensive potential. His potential to make buckets is irrelevant if we cant defend. We saw it on Saturday. If the other team scores on us we simply do not have the horses to overcome that on a regular basis. Who are you playing him over? Clark? No. Ellis? No. If the season goes down the drain and we have no shot at making the tournament then ok. This team has a long way to go before its season is defined. Simply put more minutes for Moore is waving the white flag too early.

 

[waterhead]

WH, we've played 4 teams that really mean anything.....Mississippi, Nebraska, SDSU, and Virginia Commonwealth. In those 4 games we're 12-62 or 19%. If we shot lights out against the Little Sisters of the Poor, whoopee!. The teams on the remainder of the schedule (outside of Wagner) are more like the 4 above.

I tend to agree with you though that we'll get better. I still believe we've got some players with a much higher ceiling than what we're presently witnessing. It's a little mind-boggeling to watch what's going on now. Quadri Moore will be a great shooter and the sooner he finds the rest of his game, the better. His ability to shoot is sorely needed on this team and he needs to do whatever it takes to earn more playing time. I still believe there's a huge issue in general with recruiting.

Listen...people want to have it both ways (not saying you). They want to be able to say we are getting open looks but we suck so bad at shooting that we can't even make them. Then when you point out that we CAN ACTUALLY MAKE THEM...they ask who was the competition as if we didn't have any open looks.

UH UH...the point I am making is that we can make open 3's and the team we are playing has no bearing on OPEN 3's. We have the talent to make open looks...the problem is MENTAL not physical. This is exactly why I say wait to see what happens as the season goes on. Comfort and confidence will grow.

 

[waterhead]

who were 5 best shooting games against?

Doesn't matter...the point I am making is that we can make open shots. It's a mental block and not talent related. Are we the greatest outside shooters? No...but we aren't 10-20% bad

 

[waterhead]

Lol, I am one of the few who researches everything, provides endless stats to support my argument, attends every single game, have been invested in the program over a half century, understands every single facet of the program, has good friends who attend every practice, has 2 sons and a daughter-in-law employed within the athletic department, and yet I'm supposedly the most irrational on here....lol. On this forum, it doesn't matter how rational and objective you are, if you don't love Mick Cronin, you're irrational......bottom line.

You are probably right in a way. If you are negative about the team or coach you are going to take more flack than positive regardless of how long you have been a fan. I don't always agree with the optimists but I don't make as much effort to burst their bubble

If someone is being overly negative and exaggerating how bad we are...I tend to like calling that out (not that it's you) You are pretty good with using stats to back your "concerns".

 

[jacobkdoyle]

This is a false comparison. Quadri and Morman do not play the same position. If they did I could see where you were coming from. You are saying you want the offense over the defense. I get that. But I think it will mean more losses than wins. This team is a long way from being a good offensive team because the guard play has been so bad. Not the stretch 4 position. Now you want to give the worst defensive player on the team more minutes because of his offensive potential. His potential to make buckets is irrelevant if we cant defend. We saw it on Saturday. If the other team scores on us we simply do not have the horses to overcome that on a regular basis. Who are you playing him over? Clark? No. Ellis? No. If the season goes down the drain and we have no shot at making the tournament then ok. This team has a long way to go before its season is defined. Simply put more minutes for Moore is waving the white flag too early.

Jack, I agree that Morman to Moore is apples and oranges bc of their position. But to me it is an example of the bigger picture of what gets you on the floor here. Moore might give up 10 points in 20 minutes by not boxing out and closing out on his man, but I'll gladly trade that to get a better balance. I don't think he should play over Clark or Ellis, but that doesn't mean there aren't any minutes for him. He has played 6 minutes in the last 2 games combined. That's crap imo. If he gives up, say 10 points, like I gave in the example... and scores 8, that's something I can live with at this point. That's no different than a guy like Sanders or Shaq or Morman or KJ or Guyn being responsible for 3-6 points but allowing their man to get 1 or 2 baskets over the course of the game. So why are those guys entitled to more playing time? I guess I just tend to subscribe to the idea that it is easier to learn defense than offense. And I'm prepared to live with Moore's growing pains now, especially since Ellis is behind him protecting the rim.

 

[JackBauer151]

Jack, I agree that Morman to Moore is apples and oranges bc of their position. But to me it is an example of the bigger picture of what gets you on the floor here. Moore might give up 10 points in 20 minutes by not boxing out and closing out on his man, but I'll gladly trade that to get a better balance. I don't think he should play over Clark or Ellis, but that doesn't mean there aren't any minutes for him. He has played 6 minutes in the last 2 games combined. That's crap imo. If he gives up, say 10 points, like I gave in the example... and scores 8, that's something I can live with at this point. That's no different than a guy like Sanders or Shaq or Morman or KJ or Guyn being responsible for 3-6 points but allowing their man to get 1 or 2 baskets over the course of the game. So why are those guys entitled to more playing time?

Once again you arent subbing Moore for any of those guys. You are subbing him for Gary or Ellis. Those two are anchoring the team along with Troy. Them being off the floor more minutes for anyone is a bad idea. KJ or Morman or Guyn or Shaq playing more minutes than Moore means absolutely nothing because Moore cant take those minutes because he does not play that position. If those players were stretch 4's ok I guess. But they dont. If you want Moore to play more minutes you are going to have to take them away from Ellis, Clark, and Deberry. With how bad he has played on defense and with how bad he has rebounded the ball on both offense and defense I cant justify giving him minutes over the other 3. He has offensive talent no doubt but he hasnt consistently been productive on offense either when he has had his chances. Like most he has shown "flashes".