Fairmont State

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I said the same thing basically on another thread. You can't draw conclusions from two exhibition games or early in the season when there are so many new pieces in place and players taking on expanded roles for the first time.

This team will be a work in progress. Probably see different starting line ups and different combinations on the floor early on. Practices must be a war with so much playing time up for grabs. We will be much better at end of year then we are at beginning.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

You have as much choice as you have money, so the saying goes.

Absolutely!!!

 

[JackBauer151]

Jack understand your point completely. What I expect out of the program has already been delivered. Mick is recruiting student athletes. I'm really not interested in one and doners. He holds his kids accountable both on and off the court. What you and L-T say is true ,he needs NBA type players to bring home a Championship. Something that hasn't been done since the early 60's. It would mean much more for me if he did it with student atheletes rather then kids who had no interest in going to school for the education. I wouldn't buy a ticket or watch a game if Calipari was coaching UC. Just my opinion.

That is a nice sentiment but that simply is not going to happen in today's landscape of college basketball. I also dont want a team full of one and doners and Mick is never going to have a team the resembles Kentucky. Mick believes in getting good kids and developing them for when they are juniors and seniors. That will always be his foundation. However, continuous first weekend exits are not acceptable at Cincinnati. At least not to me. Everything is in place for UC to take that big step up the mountain. He needs to have a mixture of those good solid kids who develop and those who are headed to the NBA. Needs to land the Kemba Walker's, Trey Burke's, AJ Hammond's, and Rawle Alkins of the world. I think Jermaine Lawrence, Gary Clark, and Jacob Evans are the product of that direction. If that direction stays consistent I'm very confident we will see teams that can consistently be in the conversation for the later weekends in March.

 

[L-T]

I think this is a key point. I think Mick has done a fine job up until this point with recruiting. It's been an uphill battle with the rebuilding of the program. Had to get players that could win while not being able to get top talent. Mission accomplished. Now that he has won consistently the recruits are starting to get better. Three straight classes with at least two 4 star prospects in them. Much more offensive minded players. But the point that he hasnt sent anyone to the NBA (Aside from Lance which is an outlier) is an important one. Top kids want to play in the NBA and want to play for coaches and in systems that send them there. You are not going to play in many final fours if you dont have kids on your roster that are going to the NBA. This is the next step Mick has to take. He needs to start getting players like Huggs and Pitino got while he was their assistant. I know its a different time and different leagues. However his program has went to the dance 4 years in a row, been in the top 25 at one point 5 years in a row, top 10 the last two years, has media exposure because of ESPN deal with AAC, getting new locker rooms, getting a new arena, developed a first team all american, and was coach of the year in the conference that produced the national champion. There is enough to sell top kids on to get them to Cincinnati. Now is the time to take the big step forward we have been waiting for.

I agree totally. Now is the time for "big" steps, not baby steps. Three years ago, we went to the Sweet 16. The last two years we lost in the opening round. Many are calling this year a rebuilding year, which implies the possibility of not even making the dance, If we're taking baby steps, that history says the steps are going backward. There have been some accomplishments within these seasons where our tournament performance hasn't been good, like a league championship, all-american, coach of the year, etc., but you're judged on what you do when it counts in March. That's what the seasons are designed to do...prepare you for March. Getting consistently to the second weekend, or having some occasional long runs to the elite 8 or final 4 is what it's all about. That's what attracts better players, and better leagues. If we become a fanbase, or a program, where we are just happy making the tournament, then we have settled very nicely into mid-majordom and the AAC is where we belong. The tradition of this program suggests that we should expect more than just being happy with being somewhere in the top 68 and getting an invite to the dance so that an Ivy League school or a Missouri Valley school can take us to the woodshed.

10 years of baby steps is enough for me. It's time for big steps, better performance in March, and bigger and better leagues and players. It's pretty sad if anyone thinks this program can't accomplish that.

Lastly, I'm not sure that dressing up the Shoe for $72 Million is the answer. If you put a dress on a pig, it's still a pig. That hideous upper deck is the problem and making it a little more comfortable for a fan to still have a horrible view isn't the answer. Putting chairback seats in the endzones doesn't make a lot of sense either. The students don't sit anyway. Why not leave the bench seats and continue to get higher numbers of fans and more noise close to the court? If the angle of the upper deck isn't going to be modified, putting in chaiback seats will push fans who might currently sit in the middle of the upper deck towards the outside where the views really suck. If they could hang some big video screens from the rafters up there where the fans could watch the action there if they wanted, that might be the answer, but the fact that they will be chairback seats still wouldn't make me go way up there to watch a game.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

That is a nice sentiment but that simply is not going to happen in today's landscape of college basketball. I also dont want a team full of one and doners and Mick is never going to have a team the resembles Kentucky. Mick believes in getting good kids and developing them for when they are juniors and seniors. That will always be his foundation. However, continuous first weekend exits are not acceptable at Cincinnati. At least not to me. Everything is in place for UC to take that big step up the mountain. He needs to have a mixture of those good solid kids who develop and those who are headed to the NBA. Needs to land the Kemba Walker's, Trey Burke's, AJ Hammond's, and Rawle Alkins of the world. I think Jermaine Lawrence, Gary Clark, and Jacob Evans are the product of that direction. If that direction stays consistent I'm very confident we will see teams that can consistently be in the conversation for the later weekends in March.

Jack can't argue with your logic. But again for me it is about the student athlete. What is most important for me is winning while maintaining the true intent of the program. Provide entertainment and school pride while not compromising the true function of the university. Education!!! Nothing makes me happier then to see these kids walk away with a degree rather then be eaten up by professional athletics hidden under the disguise of a educational system. So tired of the Hipocracy of the NCAA.

 

[BearcatSpaniard513]

UConn gives me hope. How many times have we beat them in the past decade? If they can get hot at the right time, why can't we? I look at what UK is and it makes me sick. That program runs around $$$$$$$$. When you have a team full of McDonald's All-Americans is winning even fun any more? At that point it's win a championship or the season is a bust or if you do win it, the NCAA takes it away a decade later for recruiting violations... I would love to beat the top rated freshman with a team full of juniors and seniors that have put their time in and will graduate with a degree. I want those kids winning it and I believe Mick will get us there.

 

[L-T]

Jack understand your point completely. What I expect out of the program has already been delivered. Mick is recruiting student athletes. I'm really not interested in one and doners. He holds his kids accountable both on and off the court. What you and L-T say is true ,he needs NBA type players to bring home a Championship. Something that hasn't been done since the early 60's. It would mean much more for me if he did it with student atheletes rather then kids who had no interest in going to school for the education. I wouldn't buy a ticket or watch a game if Calipari was coaching UC. Just my opinion.

I think people are making assumptions that Mick has a different set of standards when it comes to recruiting, that he is somehow staying away from the one and doners because he believes in the student athletes that he can develop for 4 years. I believe Mick would jump at every one of Calipari's players in a heartbeat if he could get them. It was well known that Yancy Gates' plan was to play here for one year and leave for the NBA. Unfortunately, his attitude and lack of hustle kept him here for 4 years and he never played in the NBA. Mick also jumped all over Lance Stephenson when other programs backed off of him because of his baggage. Where were Mick's high standards for the student athlete then?

I have no answer as to why he can't attract the top players, but I don't believe for a second that he doesn't want them. The guy has a phenominal basketball IQ. You come away impressed with everything he says when you listen to him talk. He wins lots of games with inferior talent, which says he can bench coach with the best of them. He's beginning to get a little better talent each year and hopefully this is a trend that continues to improve. Some better runs in March may be the final piece to the puzzle.

 

[L-T]

UConn gives me hope. How many times have we beat them in the past decade? If they can get hot at the right time, why can't we? I look at what UK is and it makes me sick. That program runs around $$$$$$$$. When you have a team full of McDonald's All-Americans is winning even fun any more? At that point it's win a championship or the season is a bust or if you do win it, the NCAA takes it away a decade later for recruiting violations... I would love to beat the top rated freshman with a team full of juniors and seniors that have put their time in and will graduate with a degree. I want those kids winning it and I believe Mick will get us there.

Better yet, if George Mason, Butler, and Virginia Commonwealth can make the Final 4 and play for the national title (and put players in the NBA), why should we ever just be happy making the tournament? We have so much more going for us than those programs have ever had.

 

[BearcatSpaniard513]

I think people are making assumptions that Mick has a different set of standards when it comes to recruiting, that he is somehow staying away from the one and doners because he believes in the student athletes that he can develop for 4 years. I believe Mick would jump at every one of Calipari's players in a heartbeat if he could get them. It was well known that Yancy Gates' plan was to play here for one year and leave for the NBA. Unfortunately, his attitude and lack of hustle kept him here for 4 years and he never played in the NBA. Mick also jumped all over Lance Stephenson when other programs backed off of him because of his baggage. Where were Mick's high standards for the student athlete then?

I have no answer as to why he can't attract the top players, but I don't believe for a second that he doesn't want them. The guy has a phenominal basketball IQ. You come away impressed with everything he says when you listen to him talk. He wins lots of games with inferior talent, which says he can bench coach with the best of them. He's beginning to get a little better talent each year and hopefully this is a trend that continues to improve. Some better runs in March may be the final piece to the puzzle.

Right it's not that he doesn't want them. He goes after the players he can realistically sign. There are only so many minutes in a day and he doesn't waste them blowing up guys that have offers from UK, KU, Duke, Arizona. We will get some every once in a while (Yancy, Lance, Lawrence), but this team will consist of great talent that was over looked. There are only so many one and done players and right now in the generation of instant gratification, these kids are all going where they can get an instant championship.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I think people are making assumptions that Mick has a different set of standards when it comes to recruiting, that he is somehow staying away from the one and doners because he believes in the student athletes that he can develop for 4 years. I believe Mick would jump at every one of Calipari's players in a heartbeat if he could get them. It was well known that Yancy Gates' plan was to play here for one year and leave for the NBA. Unfortunately, his attitude and lack of hustle kept him here for 4 years and he never played in the NBA. Mick also jumped all over Lance Stephenson when other programs backed off of him because of his baggage. Where were Mick's high standards for the student athlete then?

I have no answer as to why he can't attract the top players, but I don't believe for a second that he doesn't want them. The guy has a phenominal basketball IQ. You come away impressed with everything he says when you listen to him talk. He wins lots of games with inferior talent, which says he can bench coach with the best of them. He's beginning to get a little better talent each year and hopefully this is a trend that continues to improve. Some better runs in March may be the final piece to the puzzle.

L-T your missing the point. I could careless how or why he gets them. I only want student athlete's. If it is by Mick's design that he gets them or that he can't get them so he settles, I don't care. I am satified with the program and how it is being run. It also could be your making assumptions of Micks intent on how or why he recruits certain players. He may land some one and doners. If a player has the ability to depart for big time dollars after a year I have know issue with that. It is the present system. I don't fault the kid I might point out the tradition this program was built on required freshman to sit out there first year. There also wasn't a early entry rule in place. We have not won a championship since those days in the 60's. I perfer the days when athletes were students. If I want to watch pro's play I can watch the NBA. I have know idea why these kids can't jump straight from High School to the pro's. If you think it is for the benefit of the player I have a bridge to sell you.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

L-T your missing the point. I could careless how or why he gets them. I only want student athlete's. If it is by Mick's design that he gets them or that he can't get them so he settles, I don't care. I am satified with the program and how it is being run. It also could be your making assumptions of Micks intent on how or why he recruits certain players. He may land some one and doners. If a player has the ability to depart for big time dollars after a year I have know issue with that. It is the present system. I don't fault the kid I might point out the tradition this program was built on required freshman to sit out there first year. There also wasn't a early entry rule in place. We have not won a championship since those days in the 60's. I perfer the days when athletes were students. If I want to watch pro's play I can watch the NBA. I have know idea why these kids can't jump straight from High School to the pro's. If you think it is for the benefit of the player I have a bridge to sell you.

I agree Waite. I love the diraction our program is going. Our caliber of recruits has been boosted since our Sweet 16 team too, we just haven't seen the full benefits of it yet since the 2013 kids are just starting their 2nd year. We will have a great chance to advance in March with our core group of youngsters and with the 2015 class added into the mix. 3 and 4 year players make it easier to build a program on a solid foundation. And with the guys we are continuing to bring in, I think this year will be the last time we can call a year a "rebuilding" year. With multiple 4 stars per year and past tournament experience, we can reload rather than rebuild. I think we are continuing to move in the right direction. Obviously I want Final 4s and championships too, but not having an issue with the way things are currently going does not equal a mid-major point of view.

 

[Bearcat_NTS]

The 2011 class being a relative bust along with the 2012 class only containing one recruit is why progress has stalled a bit (though last year regular season was fantastic)...

 

[L-T]

L-T your missing the point. I could careless how or why he gets them. I only want student athlete's. If it is by Mick's design that he gets them or that he can't get them so he settles, I don't care. I am satified with the program and how it is being run. It also could be your making assumptions of Micks intent on how or why he recruits certain players. He may land some one and doners. If a player has the ability to depart for big time dollars after a year I have know issue with that. It is the present system. I don't fault the kid I might point out the tradition this program was built on required freshman to sit out there first year. There also wasn't a early entry rule in place. We have not won a championship since those days in the 60's. I perfer the days when athletes were students. If I want to watch pro's play I can watch the NBA. I have know idea why these kids can't jump straight from High School to the pro's. If you think it is for the benefit of the player I have a bridge to sell you.

Waite, you've admitted that you're not a graduate of the university. Your kids attended (or are attending) OSU and you're a big fan of that program as well. You've become a fan of this program at some point. I'm a graduate of this university. My mom worked at the university for over 30 years until she died. All four of my kids graduated from (or are attending) this university. As a young kid, I was in a packed to the rafters Armory Fieldhouse welcoming our National Championship teams back with the trophies. You and I found our way to this program from vastly different paths, which probably explains our vastly different expectations.

In a perfect world, yes I want every player to take school seriously and graduate. However, the university treats this like a professional team in that it expects huge donations just to give you the right to purchase a seat. During Huggs' years, the success was so high and the demand for tickets was so huge, that they forced all of us to purchase football season tickets if we wanted basketball tickets....and we did it! The only reason all of this happened is because we were winning big, making some long runs in the NCAA Tournament, and all our games were televised nationally. Our C-Paw brand was huge, and we were one of the few programs in the nation wearing the Michael Jordan brand uniforms. That success eventually led us to getting added to the best basketball conference in the world. It's important to win within the rules and have a stellar reputation, and to graduate players, but the 1990s showed that it is more about winning when it comes to producing revenue and fans. Today, we've got student athletes, we're graduating players, and our reputation is stellar. But, last year attendance dropped by almost 1000 fans per game. If you don't do something big occasionally, the fans will not come and the program's stature will decline, and thus, we're now in a mid-major conference sitting on the outside of the nation's elite programs and conferences.

Football is another great example. We're doing a $100 Million renovation to the stadium. We're a half game out of first place and playing a team in two days that has been in the Top 25 all season. Flip over to the football forum and you'll find zero posts about our program or team since November 1st. The only posts since Nov. 1st is some guy advertising that he has started an AAC blog, and a thread that was started about the Bengals. That more than anything demonstrates the level of apathy surrounding our sports programs. It was just a few years ago that we were going bonkers over two trips to the BCS Bowls.

If we're so apathetic that we've become happy with just graduating stident athletes and being one of sixty-eight teams invited to a tournament in March, well then, we're right where we should be. When this fanbase so easily jumped off the football bandwagon, and when it chose to come out in smaller numbers last year to watch a top 10 team with a 1st team all-american, well, that says it all. My roots in this program are much deeper than yours and I have a very difficult time co-existing with our present day fanbase. My butt will be in my seats on Thursday freezing my arse off rooting for our football team to win! And, on Friday, I'll be at the game rooting for our basketball team to beat the Little Sisters of the Poor. I'm paying my money to see a winner. If the vision and mission of our program becomes graduation first and winning second, I'll save myself a lot of money because I won't attend. I'll watch on TV! It wasn't long ago that our mission was communicated very clearly. It was to win championships! The goal was to win a championship in every single sport within 5 years. My how times have changed if your vision is now the norm.

 

[BearcatSpaniard513]

Waite, you've admitted that you're not a graduate of the university. Your kids attended (or are attending) OSU and you're a big fan of that program as well. You've become a fan of this program at some point. I'm a graduate of this university. My mom worked at the university for over 30 years until she died. All four of my kids graduated from (or are attending) this university. As a young kid, I was in a packed to the rafters Armory Fieldhouse welcoming our National Championship teams back with the trophies. You and I found our way to this program from vastly different paths, which probably explains our vastly different expectations.

In a perfect world, yes I want every player to take school seriously and graduate. However, the university treats this like a professional team in that it expects huge donations just to give you the right to purchase a seat. During Huggs' years, the success was so high and the demand for tickets was so huge, that they forced all of us to purchase football season tickets if we wanted basketball tickets....and we did it! The only reason all of this happened is because we were winning big, making some long runs in the NCAA Tournament, and all our games were televised nationally. Our C-Paw brand was huge, and we were one of the few programs in the nation wearing the Michael Jordan brand uniforms. That success eventually led us to getting added to the best basketball conference in the world. It's important to win within the rules and have a stellar reputation, and to graduate players, but the 1990s showed that it is more about winning when it comes to producing revenue and fans. Today, we've got student athletes, we're graduating players, and our reputation is stellar. But, last year attendance dropped by almost 1000 fans per game. If you don't do something big occasionally, the fans will not come and the program's stature will decline, and thus, we're now in a mid-major conference sitting on the outside of the nation's elite programs and conferences.

Football is another great example. We're doing a $100 Million renovation to the stadium. We're a half game out of first place and playing a team in two days that has been in the Top 25 all season. Flip over to the football forum and you'll find zero posts about our program or team since November 1st. The only posts since Nov. 1st is some guy advertising that he has started an AAC blog, and a thread that was started about the Bengals. That more than anything demonstrates the level of apathy surrounding our sports programs. It was just a few years ago that we were going bonkers over two trips to the BCS Bowls.

If we're so apathetic that we've become happy with just graduating stident athletes and being one of sixty-eight teams invited to a tournament in March, well then, we're right where we should be. When this fanbase so easily jumped off the football bandwagon, and when it chose to come out in smaller numbers last year to watch a top 10 team with a 1st team all-american, well, that says it all. My roots in this program are much deeper than yours and I have a very difficult time co-existing with our present day fanbase. My butt will be in my seats on Thursday freezing my arse off rooting for our football team to win! And, on Friday, I'll be at the game rooting for our basketball team to beat the Little Sisters of the Poor. I'm paying my money to see a winner. If the vision and mission of our program becomes graduation first and winning second, I'll save myself a lot of money because I won't attend. I'll watch on TV! It wasn't long ago that our mission was communicated very clearly. It was to win championships! The goal was to win a championship in every single sport within 5 years. My how times have changed if your vision is now the norm.

Bravo sir, bravo!

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Huggins didn't have that many long tournament runs. And we are still one of the Adidas schools that gets special postseason uniforms. In the last 3 years Mick has produced a Sweet 16, a Big East tournament finals, a 5 seed, a 27 win season, a conference regular season championship, a 1st team AA, a conference defensive poy, and no less than 2 4 star players per recruiting class (including 2015 already). If some fans aren't offering the same support as under Huggins, that's their problem. It isn't possible to expect any more from Mick at this point. He has done a great job of getting us back in the national picture. Last year I got comments all over Chicago everytime I wore my UC gear. That hadn't ever happened before.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

If we make the tournament this year, that'd be 5 in a row. There are currently only 11 schools that have made 5 straight tournaments.

 

[UCalum08]

Huggins didn't have that many long tournament runs. And we are still one of the Adidas schools that gets special postseason uniforms. In the last 3 years Mick has produced a Sweet 16, a Big East tournament finals, a 5 seed, a 27 win season, a conference regular season championship, a 1st team AA, a conference defensive poy, and no less than 2 4 star players per recruiting class (including 2015 already). If some fans aren't offering the same support as under Huggins, that's their problem. It isn't possible to expect any more from Mick at this point. He has done a great job of getting us back in the national picture. Last year I got comments all over Chicago everytime I wore my UC gear. That hadn't ever happened before.

Also a good add on to L-T's statement. We are moving in the right direction but we must keep our foot on the gas.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Also a good add on to L-T's statement. We are moving in the right direction but we must keep our foot on the gas.

When UC was added to the Big East Tranghese stated it was because of Football and our market.

When the Big East lost Miami, Boston College and Virginia Tech to the ACC in '03 and '04, Tranghese replaced them with Louisville, Cincinnati and South Florida—all of which had strong markets and promise in football. USF has been consistently good since joining, and Louisville and Cincinnati both have won the Big East.

http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-ba...etired-rather-than-deal-with-fragile-big-east

On other forums, there are several threads about TT's press conference today, potential bowl games and who is going to start at QB. This board is BB heavy, others are FB heavy.

The Jordan brand also is not as prestigious as one would think. Teams like Wichita State, Oakland and Fresno state have all worn the brand.

Huggins success led to his demise. Repeatedly taking chances on JUCO's with checkered pasts caught up with him. He won and won big, but in the end he and the university suffered.

 

[Robert]

Jack can't argue with your logic. But again for me it is about the student athlete. What is most important for me is winning while maintaining the true intent of the program. Provide entertainment and school pride while not compromising the true function of the university. Education!!! Nothing makes me happier then to see these kids walk away with a degree rather then be eaten up by professional athletics hidden under the disguise of a educational system. So tired of the Hipocracy of the NCAA.

The NCAA is hypocritical, yes, but you can't blame one-and-done players for doing what they do. If I have a chance to be an NBA first round pick after one season, you'd better believe I am skipping the degree and taking the millions. A college education is a wonderful thing, but you don't need a degree to put a ball in a hoop. If anything, blame the rule. 5-10 of these college freshmen making the jump to the NBA annually wouldn't have even spent a year in college if not for the asinine one-year rule.

If we are ever going to win another championship, Mick is going to have to recruit some of those types of players. Just look back at our 1999-2000 team that should have won the championship. Would that team be the best team in the country without the services of one-and-done Dermarr Johnson and two-and-done Kenny Satterfield? How good would last year's team had been if we had two impact freshmen like that?

The 99-2000 team had a great mix of guys -- you had Kenyon Martin having a breakout senior year, Pete Mickeal as an excellent JUCO transfer, young players like Steve Logan, Leonard Stokes, and Donald Little who would go on to have excellent 4-year careers, a hard-working vet in Ryan Fletcher, and a key transfer in Jermaine Tate. Kind of sounds a lot like our team last year when you think about it. But when you add a couple of superbly talented freshmen, you go from good to great.

I have no problem with guys who leave college early, so long as they are kids of high character who represent the university well during their stay here. You take the best players available, whether they are 4-year players, one-and-done players, JUCO transfers, Division I transfers, or whatever. I don't want a team full of one-and-dones, but I do like a mix of veterans, young stars, projects with potential, role players, transfers who come in and contribute right away, etc.

 

[L-T]

Huggins didn't have that many long tournament runs. And we are still one of the Adidas schools that gets special postseason uniforms. In the last 3 years Mick has produced a Sweet 16, a Big East tournament finals, a 5 seed, a 27 win season, a conference regular season championship, a 1st team AA, a conference defensive poy, and no less than 2 4 star players per recruiting class (including 2015 already). If some fans aren't offering the same support as under Huggins, that's their problem. It isn't possible to expect any more from Mick at this point. He has done a great job of getting us back in the national picture. Last year I got comments all over Chicago everytime I wore my UC gear. That hadn't ever happened before.

This is absolutely not about Huggins, but every accomplishment you listed in your post above has a multitude of corresponding accomplishments during the Huggs era that literally dwarf what you've listed above. A sweet 16, a league tournament final. A 5 seed. A 27 win season. A conference championship. A 1st team all-american. 2 years of 4 star recruits. Seriously???? Again, when fans are bragging and happy about this short list of accomplishments, how far have we sunk as a program and fanbase.

These are certainly nice accomplishments, but they are not good enough, and there are not enough of them. There is certainly no way to understand why the city of Chicago is suddenly excited about the Bearcats clothing, because once again, we're certainly not on national tv as much anymore and we're not exactly in a prestige conference. Also, 5 straight years to the tournament is a long way from 14, but we can't get to 14 without first getting to five.

In summary, you're bragging about the baby steps we're taking. But babys eventually grow up and start taking much bigger steps, and that is certainly what this program needs to do soon.