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[dp3113]

I wont say the kid is going to be unstoppable, but at 6'10 and more athletic than most guys that size in college, i think he can def help this team. Lets not forget he is only gong to be a sophomore.

I remember the Cats had a guy named Aaron Ace McGee who avg about 3ppg as a fresh and saw minimal time. He transferred to a juco and became an all american at Oklahoma. Lets not give up on Kelvin yet, patience

my point isn't to say give up on him- its just that saying a guy could be unstoppable versus saying that they can contribute is huge difference.

also, ace mcghee had a lot of polish to his game even when he got to uc. he was a skilled big who could shoot and just couldn't get on the floor at uc because he was behind martin, tate, fletcher, etc. he left to get time and open a scholarship for dermarr johnson. his skill level versus kelvin's are two different worlds.

 

[ready2go]

my point isn't to say give up on him- its just that saying a guy could be unstoppable versus saying that they can contribute is huge difference.

also, ace mcghee had a lot of polish to his game even when he got to uc. he was a skilled big who could shoot and just couldn't get on the floor at uc because he was behind martin, tate, fletcher, etc. he left to get time and open a scholarship for dermarr johnson. his skill level versus kelvin's are two different worlds.

True

There also arent too many 6'10 guys with the athletacism that Kelvin possesses

 

[Gnomey]

this still doesn't explain how a 6'10 guy who cannot see the floor on a team that had minimal depth last year could be "unstoppable.

Yes, it does. His build, strength, length and athleticism, could render him unstoppable. Unfortunately he lacks the skills. I really don't see what you don't get.
His not seeing the floor, is explained by him not having skills. It has nothing to do with his body, athleticism or anything else. He's simply not a basketball player at this point. If you're 5'6, 120lbs and have a ten inch verticle, no matter your skill set, you shouldn't need me to explain why you can't be unstoppable in the post.
Likewise, if you have the physical gifts that Kelvin Gaines does, you shouldn't need me to explain why you can be. It's just obvious.


I really can't explain it any clearer than that. If someone doesn't understand the position, there's no point in my explaining it any further anyway. He has everything you want in a post player, just not the skills.

" how many uc players in our lifetime in college hoops have been unstoppable? 3? fortson, martin, and logan?

I must have forgotten when Steve Logan was an unstoppable post presence. Steve Logan was a great guard. Guards are typical though, 6'10 dudes, with Gaines' explosiveness, speed and leaping ability, don't grow on trees.
Sheesh. Fortson was an anomally. He wouldn't be unstoppable in todays game and that's why his NBA career only went so far. He was too short and largely unathletic. As for UC, I'm not sure why you think that's relevant to the conversation anyway. My point was about the man's physical gifts, the school doesn't change that.

i love enthusiasm. i think this will be the best uc team since 2002, but to say gaines could be unstoppable is just absurd.

I'm not saying he'll get there this freaking year!!!!
I'm not saying he'll get there at all. I'm just saying, if he develops that basketball side of things, he already has the frame, foot speed, leaping ability and strength required to be a damn tank in the post.
If you don't see that, I question if you've seen the man at all.

As for this year's team, I don't think anyone can know how good or bad they'll be yet.
I'm not trying to play psychic.

basketball is a lot more than having physical tools.

Indeed. It's also skills. Which I acknowledge he lacks. Unfortunately, at this level of basketball, if you don't have the physical tools, you CAN'T play center.
If you're 6'0 tall, you will not be a dominant division 1 center; if you're Kelvin Gaines, you could be.

That's all I'm saying...

 

[Thegreatone]

Gaines will never be more than a rebound and block shots type of big man. If he averages 10 PPG ever I would be shocked.

 

[Gnomey]

Gaines will never be more than a rebound and block shots type of big man. If he averages 10 PPG ever I would be shocked.

If that's all he becomes, scholarship wasted imo.
Of course, I kind of feel that way about Justin Jackson at times.
blocks are over-valued. A big who can produce, that's all I want.
The difference is, JJ isn't built for the low post. Gaines is. His offense could be nothing more than dunks and a hook shot and he could easily get 10 points a game.
His positioning and footwork is a mess.

 

[JasonS]

If that's all he becomes, scholarship wasted imo.
Of course, I kind of feel that way about Justin Jackson at times.
blocks are over-valued. A big who can produce, that's all I want.
The difference is, JJ isn't built for the low post. Gaines is. His offense could be nothing more than dunks and a hook shot and he could easily get 10 points a game.
His positioning and footwork is a mess.

Guys have made careers in the NBA being a rebounder, defender, and shot blocker. Dennis Rodman comes to mind (yes he actually was a scorer in college). Tyson Chandler comes to mind now.

I am not saying Gaines is going to be a professional basketball player. All I am saying is that there is a place on a roster for this type of player. If Gaines can play good defense, rebound the basketball, and score 6-8 points a game on put backs, then I think he would be a valuable member of this team.

As for JJ, if you can't see his offensive upside, then you must be blind. The kid is athletically gifted and showed an expanding low post game last year. College is a time for most kids to learn and perfect their craft. JJ isn't a finished product and I think you will see a much better offensive player this year. He is already a terrific passer and if he can get comfortable putting the ball on the floor from the high post and develop a consistent 15-17 foot jumper, he will be lethal against a team playing a 2-3 zone. This team is not going to feature JJ offensively because of Cash, SK, and Jaquon (and maybe Thomas) but look for him to stuff the stat sheet.

 

[Gnomey]

Guys have made careers in the NBA being a rebounder, defender, and shot blocker.
Dennis Rodman comes to mind (yes he actually was a scorer in college). Tyson Chandler comes to mind now.
I am not saying Gaines is going to be a professional basketball player. All I am saying is that there is a place on a roster for this type of player. If Gaines can play good defense, rebound the basketball, and score 6-8 points a game on put backs, then I think he would be a valuable member of this team.

Rodman wasn't just a good rebounder, he was an amazing rebounder. The man's a hall of famer. Both of those guys could put up more than 10 pts a game at this level. Both those guys had great footwork, could play defense and do a myriad of other things than block and rebound. I couldn't care less about blocks. Sorry, but I prefer people who can actually defend every posession not just get the occasional block on sports center.
If you defend and get the ball back, who cares if you block it or not?
Blocks and dunks are great highlight moments but a dunk is worth no more than any other shot on the floor and getting the ball back is getting the ball back.
As for Gaines, we're at a point as a program, where we need to compete.
Role players are for mid-majors. Recruiting needs to step up. I'm waiting on Gaines, because if he realizes his potential, he'll be something special. Don't know that I'd be satisfied with another Ibrihima Thomas going forward.

As for JJ, if you can't see his offensive upside, then you must be blind. The kid is athletically gifted and showed an expanding low post game last year. College is a time for most kids to learn and perfect their craft. JJ isn't a finished product and I think you will see a much better offensive player this year. He is already a terrific passer and if he can get comfortable putting the ball on the floor from the high post and develop a consistent 15-17 foot jumper, he will be lethal against a team playing a 2-3 zone. This team is not going to feature JJ offensively because of Cash, SK, and Jaquon (and maybe Thomas) but look for him to stuff the stat sheet.

He has potential, but I'm unimpressed with his 5 points a game and non-existent post presence against big teams like FSU. His fouls are ridiculous, his decision making is awful and his scoring is inconsistent. He has flashes, I'm willing to wait, just not willing to presume he'll be great.
Again though, we're talking "upside".
Wouldn't it be nice to get someone inside who's simply good?

 

[JasonS]

Rodman wasn't just a good rebounder, he was an amazing rebounder. The man's a hall of famer. Both of those guys could put up more than 10 pts a game at this level. Both those guys had great footwork, could play defense and do a myriad of other things than block and rebound. I couldn't care less about blocks. Sorry, but I prefer people who can actually defend every posession not just get the occasional block on sports center.
If you defend and get the ball back, who cares if you block it or not?
Blocks and dunks are great highlight moments but a dunk is worth no more than any other shot on the floor and getting the ball back is getting the ball back.
As for Gaines, we're at a point as a program, where we need to compete.
Role players are for mid-majors. Recruiting needs to step up. I'm waiting on Gaines, because if he realizes his potential, he'll be something special. Don't know that I'd be satisfied with another Ibrihima Thomas going forward.





He has potential, but I'm unimpressed with his 5 points a game and non-existent post presence against big teams like FSU. His fouls are ridiculous, his decision making is awful and his scoring is inconsistent. He has flashes, I'm willing to wait, just not willing to presume he'll be great.
Again though, we're talking "upside".
Wouldn't it be nice to get someone inside who's simply good?

What else does Tyson Chandler do besides rebound, and block shots? He can make layups and dunks. Wonderful. Blocks are more important than you give credit for. A great shot blocker can change a game on the defensive end. Their blocks can lead to transition buckets. They can also cause players to miss open shots because they rush shots. When guys get into the lane and don't have to worry about a shot blocker, their shot percentage increases. Kenyon was the king of getting in other teams' heads by blocking shots. Shoot, he would goaltend a shot early in the game just to get in their heads if he had to. Having an intimidator inside is important. Of course, blocking shots out of bounds isn't nearly as good as blocking a shot to a teammate to start a fast break. There is an art to shot blocking.

As for dunks only being worth 2 points, technically that is true but when playing in front of the home crowd, a dunk can get the crowd going which can really be more valuable than just 2 points.

By the way, there are very few polished big men on the offensive end coming out of HS each year and EVERY school is looking for them.

 

[mdchick]

Blocks are huge in todays game because kids will do anything to not get there shot blocked... they would rather throw up an air ball to be blocked by a shot, it is definitely the most embarrassing thing(other than maybe breaking your ankles) that can happen to you on a basketball court.

Mutumbo comes to mind for me...

 

[Gnomey]

What else does Tyson Chandler do besides rebound, and block shots?

He plays good D in general. He doesn't have to block to alter peoples path to the basket.

Blocks are more important than you give credit for. A great shot blocker can change a game on the defensive end. Their blocks can lead to transition buckets. They can also cause players to miss open shots because they rush shots. When guys get into the lane and don't have to worry about a shot blocker, their shot percentage increases.

When guys have to worry about a physical presence in general, it alters their percentage. If I asked you to quantifiably, distinguish between bigs who had the ability to block as opposed to bigs who defended well without blocking, there is no real metric for that. It's my opinion that blocks are over-valued. If yours differs, so be it.
Jason Maxiell gets lots of blocks, he's still not a great defender, by any stretch.

Kenyon was the king of getting in other teams' heads by blocking shots. Shoot, he would goaltend a shot early in the game just to get in their heads if he had to.

Yeah, but tbh, the benefit of having Kenyon Martin wasn't his blocking ability. He was versatile, he could defend any position 1-5(in college). I thought that was his most impressive defensive attribute.

As for dunks only being worth 2 points, technically that is true but when playing in front of the home crowd, a dunk can get the crowd going which can really be more valuable than just 2 points.

By the way, there are very few polished big men on the offensive end coming out of HS each year and EVERY school is looking for them.

Mick is paid well enough to get a few of them. We don't get anywhere by making excuses for him.

 

[handwaver]

Blocks are huge in todays game because kids will do anything to not get there shot blocked... they would rather throw up an air ball to be blocked by a shot, it is definitely the most embarrassing thing(other than maybe breaking your ankles) that can happen to you on a basketball court.

Mutumbo comes to mind for me...

Blocks are huge...UC's final four team was able to press and double team because they had Corie Blount backing them up if the press was broken.

 

[BearcatMick]

Gaines is not mutumbo or Kenyon or Tyson chandler. We need to cool it with the ridiculous comparisons.

I like Gaines and think he will be a solid contributor when it's all said and done but lets not compare him to athletic freaks who have had great nba careers. It's not fair to kg

 

[JasonS]

Gaines is not mutumbo or Kenyon or Tyson chandler. We need to cool it with the ridiculous comparisons.

I like Gaines and think he will be a solid contributor when it's all said and done but lets not compare him to athletic freaks who have had great nba careers. It's not fair to kg

Try again. No one said he was Mutumbo, Kenyon, or Chandler. The point was made that players develop and that there is a spot on a roster for players who rebound, defend, and block shots. Kenyon is a perfect example of a player who developed over 4 years in college and Chandler is a perfect example of a player who helps change games through his defensive presence and shot blocking. Thanks for playing.

 

[dp3113]

Try again. No one said he was Mutumbo, Kenyon, or Chandler. The point was made that players develop and that there is a spot on a roster for players who rebound, defend, and block shots. Kenyon is a perfect example of a player who developed over 4 years in college and Chandler is a perfect example of a player who helps change games through his defensive presence and shot blocking. Thanks for playing.

fair...but gaines is not a good rebounder, nor is a he a good defender.

 

[BearcatMick]

Try again. No one said he was Mutumbo, Kenyon, or Chandler. The point was made that players develop and that there is a spot on a roster for players who rebound, defend, and block shots. Kenyon is a perfect example of a player who developed over 4 years in college and Chandler is a perfect example of a player who helps change games through his defensive presence and shot blocking. Thanks for playing.

Now you are stating that you aren't comparing him to Kenyon/chandler and then proceed to compare him to Kenyon/chandler

Kenyon Martin and Tyson chandler have elite level athleticism. They had nba level athleticism and potential from the get go. That helped them mask their deficiencies early in their careers and allowed them to focus on improving their offensive games. Because of that athleticism, they could still impact the game tremendously without scoring

I like Gaines and I think he'll have a good career at uc, but comparing him to nba veterans is a stretch. Your ad homonem attacks only weaken your argument

 

[Hicks' Guns]

What are all the Gaines supporters basing it on? Lay-up lines in warmups? In warm-ups, he looks...tall. There are plenty of tall guys who have been terrible.

He was redshirted 2 years ago and had minimal time last year. I just don't see where all the optimism is coming from.

Right now, I see this guy as Donald Little without any tendencies to torture his roommate. Is he dominating in the Devereoes league or something? Have people been going to open practices or something? Am I missing something?

 

[JasonS]

What are all the Gaines supporters basing it on? Lay-up lines in warmups? In warm-ups, he looks...tall. There are plenty of tall guys who have been terrible.

He was redshirted 2 years ago and had minimal time last year. I just don't see where all the optimism is coming from.

Right now, I see this guy as Donald Little without any tendencies to torture his roommate. Is he dominating in the Devereoes league or something? Have people been going to open practices or something? Am I missing something?

No I don't think you are missing anything. I think anyone who thinks he is going to be a great player are fooling themselves. I think most of us are hoping that he can give some quality minutes this year and maybe, MAYBE, develop enough in the next two years to start his senior year.

My only point with Gaines was that he can be a valuable member of this team if he can learn to play defense without fouling, block some shots, and most importantly rebound. He has the athletic ability to play the up tempo style Mick wants and if it ever does click for him, look out. That said, now is not the time to hold your breath.

 

[Hicks' Guns]

No I don't think you are missing anything. I think anyone who thinks he is going to be a great player are fooling themselves. I think most of us are hoping that he can give some quality minutes this year and maybe, MAYBE, develop enough in the next two years to start his senior year.

My only point with Gaines was that he can be a valuable member of this team if he can learn to play defense without fouling, block some shots, and most importantly rebound. He has the athletic ability to play the up tempo style Mick wants and if it ever does click for him, look out. That said, now is not the time to hold your breath.

Completely Agree. Based on (a) him being redshirted last year, (b) not being able to get on the court for meaningful minutes last year when we needed a big, and (c) Cronin's still luke-warm comments about him, I think this is the realistic hope. Like everyone on this board, I'd love for him to be a monster that averages a double-double. But expecting it does not seem realistic.

 

[ready2go]

What are all the Gaines supporters basing it on? Lay-up lines in warmups? In warm-ups, he looks...tall. There are plenty of tall guys who have been terrible.

He was redshirted 2 years ago and had minimal time last year. I just don't see where all the optimism is coming from.

Right now, I see this guy as Donald Little without any tendencies to torture his roommate. Is he dominating in the Devereoes league or something? Have people been going to open practices or something? Am I missing something?

I am basing it on the fact that you cant teach 6'10 with athleticism. Also the limited time he saw last season he did just that, IMO. He has blocked shots, was an intimidator in the paint and cleaned up boards with below avg footwork. A year later he has developed, if Mick did his job. May not have the offensive game, but thats why you have shotting guards and slashers. He needs to be a shot blocking presence and a rebounder to clean up missed shots by Cash and Killa and nothing more. At 6'10 and shreded, I believe he can do just that

 

[BearcatMick]

No I don't think you are missing anything. I think anyone who thinks he is going to be a great player are fooling themselves. I think most of us are hoping that he can give some quality minutes this year and maybe, MAYBE, develop enough in the next two years to start his senior year.

My only point with Gaines was that he can be a valuable member of this team if he can learn to play defense without fouling, block some shots, and most importantly rebound. He has the athletic ability to play the up tempo style Mick wants and if it ever does click for him, look out. That said, now is not the time to hold your breath.

Why didn't you just state this from the start instead of comparing him to kenyon, dikembe and chandler? Your statements above are accurate