Rotation/Depth Chart

[waterhead]

the logic was starting both of our PG's would get us off to a better start and improve our offense. What happened was we still got off badly and TC ended the half with 3 fouls. I agree we should continue to start KJ. Morman could get minutes at 2 and 3 when needed if he gets his act together. Cobb can eat into KJ's minutes if his shot is falling and protect you against TC getting into foul trouble. People will say TC getting into foul trouble does not occur with TC but what they fail to realize is that is by design. No coach wants to have their PG saddled with 3 fouls in 1st half. Cobb is the no.1 sub at 2 spots. He is extremely valuable in that role.

We all understand Cobb is the only real sub we have at PG. I think you are failing to realize the point some others are making here. Caupain is RARELY in any kind of foul trouble and he generally sits (if you look at his fist half sub patterns as I have) for one small break right in the middle of the first half. They are not "managing" anything other than an OBVIOUSLY designed breather which mostly happens at the exact same time every game (on average if you look at his first half playing patterns). If it was about subbing to avoid foul trouble you would see Cobb coming in after 1 or 2 minutes every once in while if Troy picks up a quick one. It simply doesn't happen. Look at their sub patterns. If you need a link to them let me know.

The design is not about foul trouble. It's about getting Troy a breather in the middle of the half. Not starting Cobb so that he can come in while Troy is on his break is a POOR design...because they can start together and they can offset their breaks.

 

[Doogle]

No, it's not. Think about that for a second... 33% isn't very good, at all. If you shoot 20 more shots at a faster pace, likely so will your opponent. And if they shoot over 33%, you're just going to lose by more. You're not just getting a bonus 20 shots without your opponent getting a bunch more as well.

I do think we could move at a faster pace, but not too fast. I say, if you've got an open shot, shoot it. Who cares how much time is left on the shot clock. Run your plays, and if you're open, fire away. Position yourself to rebound at any point. I know it sounds simple, but I don't feel you need to either be very fast or very slow paced to win. Just take what the defense gives you.

I said if the efficiency was a constant. That goes for defense too. There's nothing that says if you get 20 extra shots a game, so will your opponent and they'll shoot it way better. That's a giant leap in logic.

If we want to get into the minutiae, using their current season #s (on points for and allowed per 100 possessions), with 20 more possessions per game on each side, UC would score 20.92 more ppg, and allow 18.54 more ppg. You say they'd allow more points than they average right now. Who's to say they wouldn't score more by being more aggressive and up tempo? Regardless, the point was that they need to be more aggressive with the possessions that they have.

 

[ucswais]

Total tangent about the foul discussion, it was great to see Davis not go autobench on TC with 2 fouls Saturday. Him being around and staying involved likely helped us and even when he picked up a 3rd foul, what do you know, the world didn't end and he still had a solid game.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

We all understand Cobb is the only real sub we have at PG. I think you are failing to realize the point some others are making here. Caupain is RARELY in any kind of foul trouble and he generally sits (if you look at his fist half sub patterns as I have) for one small break right in the middle of the first half. They are not "managing" anything other than an OBVIOUSLY designed breather which mostly happens at the exact same time every game (on average if you look at his first half playing patterns). If it was about subbing to avoid foul trouble you would see Cobb coming in after 1 or 2 minutes every once in while if Troy picks up a quick one. It simply doesn't happen. Look at their sub patterns. If you need a link to them let me know.

The design is not about foul trouble. It's about getting Troy a breather in the middle of the half. Not starting Cobb so that he can come in while Troy is on his break is a POOR design...because they can start together and they can offset their breaks.

waterhead, i'm not saying part of the rational is so he can get a breathier. I understand that. Last game Troy picked up 3 fouls in 1st half. To say I don't condsider a possiblity because it rarely happens is not how most coaches operate. Especially when there is a easy fix to make it fool proof. Last game TC was allowed to play in first half with 2 fouls. He picked up his 3rd. Cobb and KJ had to start the 2nd half in a game we were trailing. A loss in this game could have put us NIT bound. I'm not saying that we shuoldn't give more minutes to Cobb vs KJ. I'm saying do it so it doesn't expose us to a potential huge problem which was averted last game. At this point in seasion it only takes one bad loss. I would also be willing to bet the fact hs is our only PG back up would certainly be a big consideration for Mick and LD. Cobb was sat at the 3 minute mark 1st half last game.Did Cobb need a breathier? What was your theory on that??? TC didn't start the 2nd half last game WHY???He never fouls out.

Here is a example for you. Cummins for Temple was allowed to get 3 fouls in 1st half in a game they lost yesterday. He played 23 minutes in a huge game for them and was their leading scorer with 15. he was 5-7 from fields and 5-7 from line. He ended up with 4 fouls. His PT was severely impacted by this situation and he was their best player. That coach left him in the game trailing by 4 points in first half with under 2 minutes and he picked up his third. Dumbest thing I have seen all year.To say managing your players fouls isn't a concern because he hasn't had much issue this year is not a good decision. JMHO!!!I want my best players on the floor at the most critical moments. Cobb is one of our most valuable players not just because he hits a few jumpers but because he plays multiple positions very well.

 

[kskenyon4]

waterhead, i'm not saying part of the rational is so he can get a breathier. I understand that. Last game Troy picked up 3 fouls in 1st half. To say I don't condsider a possiblity because it rarely happens is not how most coaches operate. Especially when there is a easy fix to make it fool proof. Last game TC was allowed to play in first half with 2 fouls. He picked up his 3rd. Cobb and KJ had to start the 2nd half in a game we were trailing. A loss in this game could have put us NIT bound. I'm not saying that we shuoldn't give more minutes to Cobb vs KJ. I'm saying do it so it doesn't expose us to a potential huge problem which was averted last game. At this point in seasion it only takes one bad loss. I would also be willing to bet the fact hs is our only PG back up would certainly be a big consideration for Mick and LD. Cobb was sat at the 3 minute mark 1st half last game.Did Cobb need a breathier? What was your theory on that??? TC didn't start the 2nd half last game WHY???He never fouls out.

I'm 'thinking' the starting second half line up was who LD thought could get most out of the full court pressure since he did mention that was a focal point once they knew Rose was out at half time.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Total tangent about the foul discussion, it was great to see Davis not go autobench on TC with 2 fouls Saturday. Him being around and staying involved likely helped us and even when he picked up a 3rd foul, what do you know, the world didn't end and he still had a solid game.

He didn't start the 2nd half because he had 3 fouls. We were trailing in the game.

 

[ucswais]

He didn't start the 2nd half because he had 3 fouls. We were trailing in the game.

Yes, that was stupid. I'm just saying I will take what I can get with the ridiculous group think with college coaches and foul trouble.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

I'm 'thinking' the starting second half line up was who LD thought could get most out of the full court pressure since he did mention that was a focal point once they knew Rose was out at half time.

Not saying that didn't enter into his thinking but having 3 fouls is the big reason he didn't start TC in a game we were trailing.

 

[#BearcatNation]

I said if the efficiency was a constant. That goes for defense too. There's nothing that says if you get 20 extra shots a game, so will your opponent and they'll shoot it way better. That's a giant leap in logic.

If we want to get into the minutiae, using their current season #s (on points for and allowed per 100 possessions), with 20 more possessions per game on each side, UC would score 20.92 more ppg, and allow 18.54 more ppg. You say they'd allow more points than they average right now. Who's to say they wouldn't score more by being more aggressive and up tempo? Regardless, the point was that they need to be more aggressive with the possessions that they have.

I get what you're saying. It makes a lot more sense when you use our points per possession offense/defense, rather than saying if you're shooting 33%, just shoot more, because that often translates into getting annihilated 86-62. Unless you get a TON of offensive rebounds, though, if you go fast-paced and shoot a lot, the likelihood is that your opponent will as well.

I think if you know you're way better than your opponent, especially athletically, you should work quickly. You will likely be able to blow them out. But when facing a very tough opponent, I like a slow-pace, because it makes a blowout very unlikely, and you're always in the game.

 

[nkywestside]

He didn't start the 2nd half because he had 3 fouls. We were trailing in the game.

Waite, I think you have made your point on your obsession with fouls. You have had this going on now for a couple of weeks. You have made your point clear that coaches subscribe to your theory also in regards to this. However, there is another way of skinning this cat and others have chimed in. Personally, I find it highly overrated to bench a kid with 2 fouls for a remainder of a half if he is not prone to foul trouble to begin with. In Troy's case this was the first time it's happened this year. Somebody like Justin Jackson with 2 fouls would probably be a good candidate to let sit so he doesn't pick up his 3rd because he had a penchant of foul trouble anyway. Most guards never foul out so personally I wouldn't get too caught up in it by systematically always subbing someone out because they have 2 on them. To me it's foolish. What if your best player picks up his second before the 1st or 2nd TV timeout? You going to sit him 12-16 minutes because of this? I never would and I never have. Smart players will still find a way to play aggressively without fouling.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

waterhead, i'm not saying part of the rational is so he can get a breathier. I understand that. Last game Troy picked up 3 fouls in 1st half. To say I don't condsider a possiblity because it rarely happens is not how most coaches operate. Especially when there is a easy fix to make it fool proof. Last game TC was allowed to play in first half with 2 fouls. He picked up his 3rd. Cobb and KJ had to start the 2nd half in a game we were trailing. A loss in this game could have put us NIT bound. I'm not saying that we shuoldn't give more minutes to Cobb vs KJ. I'm saying do it so it doesn't expose us to a potential huge problem which was averted last game. At this point in seasion it only takes one bad loss. I would also be willing to bet the fact hs is our only PG back up would certainly be a big consideration for Mick and LD. Cobb was sat at the 3 minute mark 1st half last game.Did Cobb need a breathier? What was your theory on that??? TC didn't start the 2nd half last game WHY???He never fouls out.

Here is a example for you. Cummins for Temple was allowed to get 3 fouls in 1st half in a game they lost yesterday. He played 23 minutes in a huge game for them and was their leading scorer with 15. he was 5-7 from fields and 5-7 from line. He ended up with 4 fouls. His PT was severely impacted by this situation and he was their best player. That coach left him in the game trailing by 4 points in first half with under 2 minutes and he picked up his third. Dumbest thing I have seen all year.To say managing your players fouls isn't a concern because he hasn't had much issue this year is not a good decision. JMHO!!!I want my best players on the floor at the most critical moments. Cobb is one of our most valuable players not just because he hits a few jumpers but because he plays multiple positions very well.

Temple was getting nothing done without Cummings yesterday. Dunphy knew that and took a risk. You say no coaches ever do it, but 2 did in our own conference just this weekend. You also acknowledge that the 3 fouls rarely happen AND that we averted disaster after it did happen. So consider our end result.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I get what you're saying. It makes a lot more sense when you use our points per possession offense/defense, rather than saying if you're shooting 33%, just shoot more, because that often translates into getting annihilated 86-62. Unless you get a TON of offensive rebounds, though, if you go fast-paced and shoot a lot, the likelihood is that your opponent will as well.

I think if you know you're way better than your opponent, especially athletically, you should work quickly. You will likely be able to blow them out. But when facing a very tough opponent, I like a slow-pace, because it makes a blowout very unlikely, and you're always in the game.

I'm 100% with you on this.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Temple was getting nothing done without Cummings yesterday. Dunphy knew that and took a risk. You say no coaches ever do it, but 2 did in our own conference just this weekend. You also acknowledge that the 3 fouls rarely happen AND that we averted disaster after it did happen. So consider our end result.

Temple was down 4 points at halftime. Hardly out of the game. There best player was limited to 21 minutes in the game. We were trailing at halftime and we didn't start TC in second half. In a huge game. AGAIN it rarely happens not because guys don't foul out its because coaches sit them rather then pick up a 3 foul in the half so they are available in the 2nd half and don't foul out. In both cases two of the best players on there respective teams were limited to 21 minutes. So in your mind its ok to get 3 fouls in 1st half under some circumstances. If TC picked up his second foul at the 10 min mark of 1st half would you sit him?

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Waite, I think you have made your point on your obsession with fouls. You have had this going on now for a couple of weeks. You have made your point clear that coaches subscribe to your theory also in regards to this. However, there is another way of skinning this cat and others have chimed in. Personally, I find it highly overrated to bench a kid with 2 fouls for a remainder of a half if he is not prone to foul trouble to begin with. In Troy's case this was the first time it's happened this year. Somebody like Justin Jackson with 2 fouls would probably be a good candidate to let sit so he doesn't pick up his 3rd because he had a penchant of foul trouble anyway. Most guards never foul out so personally I wouldn't get too caught up in it by systematically always subbing someone out because they have 2 on them. To me it's foolish. What if your best player picks up his second before the 1st or 2nd TV timeout? You going to sit him 12-16 minutes because of this? I never would and I never have. Smart players will still find a way to play aggressively without fouling.

It was the first time because the coaches hardly ever do it not because he is skilled at not picking up a 3rd foul. You seem like a knowledgeable fan who played some hoop. If you were playing in a game and one of the other players who was a very good player had just picked up his second foul in the first half and was still on the floor would you not give the ball to who he was guarding and tell him to try and get a third on him. At worst the player with the fouls would not be able to guard as well while trying not to foul. Wouldn't you agree. I would and so would many other coaches. It happens all the time. Your also leaving yourself open to the judgement of the official to make the right call. Lots of risk. Not nearly as simple as leave him in and he is smart enough to avoid some fouls. That is why many coaches don't subscribe to this thought priocess.

As far as why I keep debating this is because it is a good discussion where people have to think about there answer and employ there knowledge of the game.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

Temple was down 4 points at halftime. Hardly out of the game. There best player was limited to 21 minutes in the game. We were trailing at halftime and we didn't start TC in second half. In a huge game. AGAIN it rarely happens not because guys don't foul out its because coaches sit them rather then pick up a 3 foul in the half so they are available in the 2nd half and don't foul out. In both cases two of the best players on there respective teams were limited to 21 minutes. So in your mind its ok to get 3 fouls in 1st half under some circumstances. If TC picked up his second foul at the 10 min mark of 1st half would you sit him?

Cummings had his 2nd foul 5 minutes into the game. Your way he sits for the final 15 minutes in the first half...so his max is 25 minutes if he played the entire 2nd half. Dunphy took a gamble bc Temple only scored 9 points in the 10 minutes Cummings sat. Not everyone subscribes to your philosophy, please accept that it isn't always so cut and dry. Certain players, certain game situations and certain environments dictate what a coach will do.
Also, Caupain could've played more but he sat at least the first 5 minutes of the 2nd half bc we were on a run. So your doomsday scenario happened with Caupain, and we outscored the other team by 13 on the road in the 2nd half. And on top of that, Caupain was fresh to play the rest of the game if needed. As someone said earlier, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Caummings had his 2nd foul 5 minutes into the game. Your way he sits for the final 15 minutes in the first half...so his max is 25 minutes if he played the entire 2nd half. Dunphy took a gamble bc Temple only scored 9 points in the 10 minutes Cummings sat. Not everyone subscribes to your philosophy, please accept that it isn't always so cut and dry. Certain players, certain game situations and certain environments dictate what a coach will do.
Also, Caupain could've played more but he sat at least the first 5 minutes of the 2nd half bc we were on a run. So your doomsday scenario happened with Caupain, and we outscored the other team by 13 on the road in the 2nd half. And on top of that, Caupain was fresh to play the rest of the game if needed. As someone said earlier, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I'm aware it isn't so cut and dry. The whole point of the discussion was why we didn't start Cobb and TC together. LD didn't start TC in the second half because he didn't want him to pick up his 4th early in half. Certainly risky because he left him in to get his 3 in the 1st half.Many think Cobb should start because he is better offensively. If he starts and only plays 28 minutes a game and if he subs creating flexiblity for the coach in case TC gets in foul trouble and still plays 28 minutes a game what is the difference? Why did LD sub for Cobb at the 3 min mark of the first half?

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I'm aware it isn't so cut and dry. The whole point of the discussion was why we didn't start Cobb and TC together. LD didn't start TC in the second half because he didn't want him to pick up his 4th early in half. Certainly risky because he left him in to get his 3 in the 1st half.Many think Cobb should start because he is better offensively. If he starts and only plays 28 minutes a game and if he subs creating flexiblity for the coach in case TC gets in foul trouble and still plays 28 minutes a game what is the difference? Why did LD sub for Cobb at the 3 min mark of the first half?

Please move on. We can't keep having this same conversation over and over again. Everyone has shared how they feel about it, and at this point no one is changing anyone's mind. You sit players with 2 fouls regardless of anything, others don't. You don't think Cobb should start, others do. Just leave it at that.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Please move on. We can't keep having this same conversation over and over again. Everyone has shared how they feel about it, and at this point no one is changing anyone's mind. You sit players with 2 fouls regardless of anything, others don't. You don't think Cobb should start, others do. Just leave it at that.

I can move on but are you sure you want me to. You've responded to everyone of my post. I thought yo were enjoying the conversation.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I can move on but are you sure you want me to. You've responded to everyone of my post. I thought yo were enjoying the conversation.

It's getting very repetitive.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

It's getting very repetitive.

well then lets move on.