Rotation/Depth Chart

[Doogle]

I get what you're saying. It makes a lot more sense when you use our points per possession offense/defense, rather than saying if you're shooting 33%, just shoot more, because that often translates into getting annihilated 86-62. Unless you get a TON of offensive rebounds, though, if you go fast-paced and shoot a lot, the likelihood is that your opponent will as well.

I think if you know you're way better than your opponent, especially athletically, you should work quickly. You will likely be able to blow them out. But when facing a very tough opponent, I like a slow-pace, because it makes a blowout very unlikely, and you're always in the game.

For sure. The only issue is with how they play against inferior opponents. The pace and efficiency doesn't change. They play down to the opposition to some extent because their defense against a pretty good offense (Xavier) looked as good if not better than the D they've played against ECU and others.

If you look at the build of the roster and what's coming, it seems obvious that Mick is trying to create a team that can play big or small, fast or slow. You have lanky open court players (Ellis, Shaq), stockier half court guys (DeBerry, Sanders) and hybrid guards. Not to beat a dead horse, but what we're not seeing is a desire to recruit specialists that can knock down 3s. Not sure why, because again, you can't convince me there aren't a few guys out there hitting 40% that wouldn't kill to come to UC.

 

[jacobkdoyle]

For sure. The only issue is with how they play against inferior opponents. The pace and efficiency doesn't change. They play down to the opposition to some extent because their defense against a pretty good offense (Xavier) looked as good if not better than the D they've played against ECU and others.

If you look at the build of the roster and what's coming, it seems obvious that Mick is trying to create a team that can play big or small, fast or slow. You have lanky open court players (Ellis, Shaq), stockier half court guys (DeBerry, Sanders) and hybrid guards. Not to beat a dead horse, but what we're not seeing is a desire to recruit specialists that can knock down 3s. Not sure why, because again, you can't convince me there aren't a few guys out there hitting 40% that wouldn't kill to come to UC.

I could get on board with using our last scholarship on the 3 pt shooter. It is interesting, I was listening to a podcast with an interview with Rick Carlisle, and he was talking about the "pace and space" trend in the League. In response to their approach he said, "The way the game is now, would you rather flick the wrist and get 3 points? Or throw it in, take a lot of time, get guys cutting, and have to grind vs 2 or 3 players to get 2 points?" Obviously the NBA is different, but it does seem like a premium is being placed on 3 pt shooting around basketball these days. With 13 scholarships, it sure wouldn't hurt to use one on a guy that can be a specialist from deep.

 

[nkywestside]

It was the first time because the coaches hardly ever do it not because he is skilled at not picking up a 3rd foul. You seem like a knowledgeable fan who played some hoop. If you were playing in a game and one of the other players who was a very good player had just picked up his second foul in the first half and was still on the floor would you not give the ball to who he was guarding and tell him to try and get a third on him. At worst the player with the fouls would not be able to guard as well while trying not to foul. Wouldn't you agree. I would and so would many other coaches. It happens all the time. Your also leaving yourself open to the judgement of the official to make the right call. Lots of risk. Not nearly as simple as leave him in and he is smart enough to avoid some fouls. That is why many coaches don't subscribe to this thought priocess.

As far as why I keep debating this is because it is a good discussion where people have to think about there answer and employ there knowledge of the game.

Some coaches don't subscribe to my theory and I understand it completely. The system is conservative and set up to work that way. Pick up 2? Go have a drink and relax.. Personally, I have found that if you understand your players tendencies alot of them can still play without fouling. I have gone after guys with fouls and teams have come after us with guys with fouls, I still find it overrated and statistically irrelevant. As a matter of fact I can't recall keeping in a kid with 2 fouls in the first half ever fouling out later. But that's the thing. Foulouts are extremely rare. 4 fouls on a guy about 25%. Most players end the game with 3 or less fouls. Whether you sat them for long stretches or not. Troy would have been a good example but he obviously picked up his 3rd so he had to go sit. I believe he ended up with 3 which is about right statistically speaking. Guys find ways. Atleast certain ones. Not to foul out. You make good points though and they are definately relevant in today's game.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

Some coaches don't subscribe to my theory and I understand it completely. The system is conservative and set up to work that way. Pick up 2? Go have a drink and relax.. Personally, I have found that if you understand your players tendencies alot of them can still play without fouling. I have gone after guys with fouls and teams have come after us with guys with fouls, I still find it overrated and statistically irrelevant. As a matter of fact I can't recall keeping in a kid with 2 fouls in the first half ever fouling out later. But that's the thing. Foulouts are extremely rare. 4 fouls on a guy about 25%. Most players end the game with 3 or less fouls. Whether you sat them for long stretches or not. Troy would have been a good example but he obviously picked up his 3rd so he had to go sit. I believe he ended up with 3 which is about right statistically speaking. Guys find ways. Atleast certain ones. Not to foul out. You make good points though and they are definately relevant in today's game.

Good points. Glad you added them to discussion

 

[Bulldog01]

TC gets criticism because he is our best player and his 2 biggest no shows this year coincided with 2 horrible losses. I don't really agree with you that he's been that consistent. I think he carries the offense in certain games and other times he is just a guy.

NOBODY carries offense

 

[Bulldog01]

I'm 'thinking' the starting second half line up was who LD thought could get most out of the full court pressure since he did mention that was a focal point once they knew Rose was out at half time.

Was he saying TC been slacking on D or just couldn't press with him?

 

[Bulldog01]

I'm 100% with you on this.

It's been basketball from beginning.

 

[Bulldog01]

It was the first time because the coaches hardly ever do it not because he is skilled at not picking up a 3rd foul. You seem like a knowledgeable fan who played some hoop. If you were playing in a game and one of the other players who was a very good player had just picked up his second foul in the first half and was still on the floor would you not give the ball to who he was guarding and tell him to try and get a third on him. At worst the player with the fouls would not be able to guard as well while trying not to foul. Wouldn't you agree. I would and so would many other coaches. It happens all the time. Your also leaving yourself open to the judgement of the official to make the right call. Lots of risk. Not nearly as simple as leave him in and he is smart enough to avoid some fouls. That is why many coaches don't subscribe to this thought priocess.

As far as why I keep debating this is because it is a good discussion where people have to think about there answer and employ there knowledge of the game.

We NEVER attacked the walk on. I doubt Houston attack tc. Dont reach if they do and you'll be fine. I don't think it was foul anyway

 

[bearcat jeff]

Was he saying TC been slacking on D or just couldn't press with him?

Okay, the TC is bad thing is getting a little old and repetitive. A) It's nonsense B) he has the best overall numbers on the team including first in steals per game, first in points, first in assist, 3 point shooting, and ft shooting, third leading rebounder. Move on.

 

[Doogle]

Been thinking about this TC thing quite a bit. We all want someone to take the reins badly, and he's really the only guy on this year's team capable of doing it. But does that mean he should be expected to do it, or excoriated for not doing it? I think back to some of our best teams in terms of guard play. Where would Troy's minutes come from on a team with Logan and Satterfield? Logan and I-Mac? Both of those guys struggled at times early in their careers - remember the whole "Satterfield can't make a big shot" debate? But never were any of those guys on and island unto themselves like Caupain is.

It was insightful to be at the game the other night. Troy is always talking - to players, to coaches - in a very assertive way. Shaq was really engaged and into the game while he was on the floor. Whatever we want to say about those 2 kids, I don't think what's happening is due to lack of desire or willingness to do what's asked of them. And while it's often frustrating to watch and I'll continue to advocate for things I'd like to see changed, I'm never going to question the effort of those two.

In the end, TC is doing his best at a position he's not necessarily suited for. I appreciate what he does for the team.

 

[Bulldog01]

Okay, the TC is bad thing is getting a little old and repetitive. A) It's nonsense B) he has the best overall numbers on the team including first in steals per game, first in points, first in assist, 3 point shooting, and ft shooting, third leading rebounder. Move on.

last 5 games we're not even top 150 teammates

 

[Bulldog01]

TC wouldn't even get recruited back on them teams. Satt was all American and started on #1 ranked team. Best pure pg in huggs era. Satt was throwing martin and tate lobs from half court.

 

[waterhead]

waterhead, i'm not saying part of the rational is so he can get a breathier. I understand that. Last game Troy picked up 3 fouls in 1st half. To say I don't condsider a possiblity because it rarely happens is not how most coaches operate. Especially when there is a easy fix to make it fool proof. Last game TC was allowed to play in first half with 2 fouls. He picked up his 3rd. Cobb and KJ had to start the 2nd half in a game we were trailing. A loss in this game could have put us NIT bound. I'm not saying that we shuoldn't give more minutes to Cobb vs KJ. I'm saying do it so it doesn't expose us to a potential huge problem which was averted last game. At this point in seasion it only takes one bad loss. I would also be willing to bet the fact hs is our only PG back up would certainly be a big consideration for Mick and LD. Cobb was sat at the 3 minute mark 1st half last game.Did Cobb need a breathier? What was your theory on that??? TC didn't start the 2nd half last game WHY???He never fouls out.

Here is a example for you. Cummins for Temple was allowed to get 3 fouls in 1st half in a game they lost yesterday. He played 23 minutes in a huge game for them and was their leading scorer with 15. he was 5-7 from fields and 5-7 from line. He ended up with 4 fouls. His PT was severely impacted by this situation and he was their best player. That coach left him in the game trailing by 4 points in first half with under 2 minutes and he picked up his third. Dumbest thing I have seen all year.To say managing your players fouls isn't a concern because he hasn't had much issue this year is not a good decision. JMHO!!!I want my best players on the floor at the most critical moments. Cobb is one of our most valuable players not just because he hits a few jumpers but because he plays multiple positions very well.

If you noticed in my earlier posts I am not a fan of leaving Troy in to get his 3rd in the first half. If you hold onto that foul you can play him the ENTIRE second half which he has done about 8 or 9 times already. Once you understand you have the ability to play Troy the entire half (which also means you can sit Cobb for much of the second half if you want)...then you understand why Cobb can get as many as 3 fouls in the first half (which he hasn't had more than 3 in a game all year). Then you understand why it's nonsense to not start him. Then you understand why it would be next to impossible for them both to be in foul trouble.

It's very simple. If Troy gets to 2 fouls you sit him in the first half. I would play Cobb with 2 because I know Troy can play the whole second half and because Cobb has never had more than 3.

We ALL understand the importance of managing foul trouble for critical players! What some of us disagree with is completely OVERmanaging the situation.

 

[WAITE HOYT 2]

If you noticed in my earlier posts I am not a fan of leaving Troy in to get his 3rd in the first half. If you hold onto that foul you can play him the ENTIRE second half which he has done about 8 or 9 times already. Once you understand you have the ability to play Troy the entire half (which also means you can sit Cobb for much of the second half if you want)...then you understand why Cobb can get as many as 3 fouls in the first half (which he hasn't had more than 3 in a game all year). Then you understand why it's nonsense to not start him. Then you understand why it would be next to impossible for them both to be in foul trouble.

It's very simple. If Troy gets to 2 fouls you sit him in the first half. I would play Cobb with 2 because I know Troy can play the whole second half and because Cobb has never had more than 3.

We ALL understand the importance of managing foul trouble for critical players! What some of us disagree with is completely OVERmanaging the situation.

WaterHead we are in two different time zones when it comes to this. We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[coachpipe]

I cant believe we are on 10 pages and most revolve around the best player on this team not being good? These are basically the same things happening with the Reds. Oh the reds arent doing well, lets go blame the best player on the Team in Votto. Forget about the holes in 4 of the 8 positions. Lets blame the best player on the team

 

[jacobkdoyle]

I cant believe we are on 10 pages and most revolve around the best player on this team not being good? These are basically the same things happening with the Reds. Oh the reds arent doing well, lets go blame the best player on the Team in Votto. Forget about the holes in 4 of the 8 positions. Lets blame the best player on the team

Haha well I guess it comes with the territory. Troy was a hero after UConn, but when we go through a stretch like we have recently, he's just the easiest one to blame. We saw him score 20 once, why isn't he doing it every game!?!? (And I like Votto too, I just hate when he's hurt)

 

[TheLongHaul]

I cant believe we are on 10 pages and most revolve around the best player on this team not being good? These are basically the same things happening with the Reds. Oh the reds arent doing well, lets go blame the best player on the Team in Votto. Forget about the holes in 4 of the 8 positions. Lets blame the best player on the team

I don't think people are blaming him (well there might be one individual). Others are just saying he needs to step it up, which is true. Frankly they all do, but Caupain has higher expectations.

 

[L-T]

I believe Cobb should start with TC.....period. The goal is a better start to the game. Would rather be out front with this group, than playing from behind. If foul trouble rears its ugly head, oh well. We'll just deal with it. The only reason Troy came back into the game the other night is because we were about 10 down, then Ellis got ejected, and things were about to get dire. LD did the right thing to stop the bleeding. It was an extreme situation. In most cases, he would have never been brought back in. On a veteran team, with lots of talented parts, you can afford to let better players come off of the bench, but not on this team. With no veterans and no leaders, I think it is more important to try to get a good start and get out front and play with the lead, rather than trying to play catch-up.

 

[bearcat jeff]

I don't think people are blaming him (well there might be one individual). Others are just saying he needs to step it up, which is true. Frankly they all do, but Caupain has higher expectations.

This i can agree with. A bad stretch brings the trolls out.

 

[Bulldog01]

I cant believe we are on 10 pages and most revolve around the best player on this team not being good? These are basically the same things happening with the Reds. Oh the reds arent doing well, lets go blame the best player on the Team in Votto. Forget about the holes in 4 of the 8 positions. Lets blame the best player on the team

You don't blame cozart for having bad games when guys around him makes 25x more money isn't producing. Votto gets paid to be better than his teammates. Sane with TC, if you think he's good then I expect him to do alot more to win games. TC main job is to run offense and get others involved. Until I see him take next step in development he's just another player out there. BtW, clark is better.