UCF Round 2

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cincrulz11 said:
i only referenced rebounding because thats what brannen specifically references when he said he'd bench guys if he could.


when mika went into the backcourt to get that one loose ball and UCF won the battle and got a dunk/layup out of it. keith was the closest guy besides the 2 that went after the loose ball. and he just stood and watched as UCF ran down the court. if keith even jogs back, we get that loose ball.


that stuff just can't happen when you're fighting for your tournament life. there is no tomorrow.
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Yah I heard that from Brannen about rebounding but not boxing out is just one area of effort. As you mentioned...we aren't in a position to be dogging it on any play unless we are up 20 with a couple of minutes to go.

Coach needs to take some blame himself and then call some players out. I don't care if he calls them all out. Some of those plays were an absolutely embarrassing display of effort with tourney hopes still on the line.

And Keith will be one of our top 2 returning players if not the top. And Vogt is not a good rebounder. That's probably going to be a developmental year with frosh getting a lot of minutes to get them ready
 
cincrulz11 said:
we can go back and forth on that but i think its pretty clear they never practice zone defense. and when they do its a gimmicky 1-3-1.


the defense has gone from looking awful to getting a lot of stops in multiple games this season. without changing anything. effort went up and defense got much better.


just "switching something" does not guarantee a better outcome. there seems to be the assumption that it does.


we gave up 13 points the last 10 minutes of regulation. its not likely any other defense gives up less points than that, and we likely don't even get to OT by switching things up.
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I agree it's a 40 minute effort thing...we can get stops when we want. If it is due to fatigue we need a new plan. We need to stop these stupid pre-scheduled breaks to bring in the bench and start giving individual breathers (only when a player is tired). As soon as the player catches their breath put them back in immediately...but mandate max effort with no exceptions. I don't care if they need 3 breaks per half at 1-2 minutes each.

Tre really doesn't need many breaks...he is still better tired than any bench player. Hell I would probably let him go 40 minutes actually. Jarron gets lazy and careless when he's tired and Keith looks like he just finished a marathon at times. We have 4 decent guards to rotate
 
Not everybody can be a great rebounder, but a lot of guys on this team can be better than they are. Last year 6'2" Logan Johnson averaged more rebounds (per 40 minutes in conference) than anybody on the team not named Scott or Diarra has averaged per 40 in conference. And even if you can't grab the rebound, you can still box out.

I don't think anybody doubts that this team can play well. But they have to give 40 minutes effort and it's on the coach to find a way to get them to. It was something Cronin had nearly mastered (and why we very rarely lost games we shouldn't lose) and something Brannen still needs to work on.

Brannen's substitution patterns are some of the most ridiculous of any coach. Putting 3/4 subs in at one scheduled time in the first half, rather than sub guys in and out as they need a rest. And then in the second half he seems to dislike subbing anyone in or out besides Cumberland/MAW.

Give guys breaks when they need them and the coach should be the one judging if they need one, rather than the player. I didn't like the Cronin method of subbing a guy out after one mistake, but if a guy is not giving effort, he needs to come out.

We have 9/10 guys who are capable of playing, at least for short stretches. They need to know that if they aren't in there giving maximum effort, they are coming out. Especially the subs, there's no reason for guys like Davenport and Harvey to be averaging under 2.5 rebounds/40 minutes in conference. If they can't get it done, maybe you play Rob Banks for a while just to make a point.

As for switching things up, maybe it wouldn't lead to a win. But I feel the same way I felt when we lost the game to BGSU because McNeal couldn't make a free throw. I'd rather try something different and have it fail and lose, then watch us do the same thing over and over and fail and lose.
 
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cincrulz11 said:
we can go back and forth on that but i think its pretty clear they never practice zone defense. and when they do its a gimmicky 1-3-1.


the defense has gone from looking awful to getting a lot of stops in multiple games this season. without changing anything. effort went up and defense got much better.


just "switching something" does not guarantee a better outcome. there seems to be the assumption that it does.


we gave up 13 points the last 10 minutes of regulation. its not likely any other defense gives up less points than that, and we likely don't even get to OT by switching things up.
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Nothing guarantees better outcomes. Still have to try. Doing the same thing that isn’t working over and over is definitely not a good strategy for success
 
The problem with the defense is that it only works in spurts.

UCF had 23 points at the roughly 10 minute mark in the first half, it put them on Pace for 92 points, but we buckled down, finished the half strong, then we just let it get worse and worse as the games progresses.


I mean, I've never seen a team play such good defense for 25 seconds, only to break down in the last seconds and allow an uncontested layup.

The defense isn't confusing. It doesn't require you to think. Its basically relying on one on one defense and in basketball, everyone wants that match.


Houston has a gimmick. They have great shot blockers. Yet they double every post touch. It doesn't matter if you're Chris Vogt, Tacko Fall or frickin Jay Sorolla. IF you catch it in the post against Houston, they immediately double.

It causes the big to over think his next move. And its why they are the best team in the league.


And until Kelvin Sampson either leaves or takes another job, I can't see him a scenario where UC is king of the league again.


Its funny that John Brannen noted his idea player was Keith Williams. And yet, has even tried to recruit a player like Keith to cincinnati?
 
cincyguy13 said:
Nothing guarantees better outcomes. Still have to try. Doing the same thing that isn’t working over and over is definitely not a good strategy for success
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If we gave the 2-3 Zone or even a matchup a true effort and it failed, I'd never bring it up again.


The thing about the Bearcats defense of old is they wouldn't let you do what you wanted to do.

But it was Clear what UCF wanted to do. They wanted to spread us way out, until the paint was wide open and then drive us one on one.

Like the objective was clear as day. And it worked. we did nothing to stop it.



Then, on the other end, UCF made it feel like there were 30 guys in the paint protecting it for them.

Lets just run whatever defense they run. protect the paint.




THERE ARE 32 CONFERENCES. THE AAC IS 29TH IN 3PT%


EVERY ONE IN THIS LEAGUE SHOULD ZONE EACH OTHER.
 
justinhub2003 said:
If we gave the 2-3 Zone or even a matchup a true effort and it failed, I'd never bring it up again.


The thing about the Bearcats defense of old is they wouldn't let you do what you wanted to do.

But it was Clear what UCF wanted to do. They wanted to spread us way out, until the paint was wide open and then drive us one on one.

Like the objective was clear as day. And it worked. we did nothing to stop it.



Then, on the other end, UCF made it feel like there were 30 guys in the paint protecting it for them.

Lets just run whatever defense they run. protect the paint.




THERE ARE 32 CONFERENCES. THE AAC IS 29TH IN 3PT%


EVERY ONE IN THIS LEAGUE SHOULD ZONE EACH OTHER.
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We will most likely never have a cronin defense. Which I’m fine with. Cronin got guys that could only play defense. Which is also fine. There are many ways to win, but you’re right, you have to try different ways to win. If something isn’t working.
 
justinhub2003 said:
The problem with the defense is that it only works in spurts.

UCF had 23 points at the roughly 10 minute mark in the first half, it put them on Pace for 92 points, but we buckled down, finished the half strong, then we just let it get worse and worse as the games progresses.


I mean, I've never seen a team play such good defense for 25 seconds, only to break down in the last seconds and allow an uncontested layup.

The defense isn't confusing. It doesn't require you to think. Its basically relying on one on one defense and in basketball, everyone wants that match.


Houston has a gimmick. They have great shot blockers. Yet they double every post touch. It doesn't matter if you're Chris Vogt, Tacko Fall or frickin Jay Sorolla. IF you catch it in the post against Houston, they immediately double.

It causes the big to over think his next move. And its why they are the best team in the league.


And until Kelvin Sampson either leaves or takes another job, I can't see him a scenario where UC is king of the league again.


Its funny that John Brannen noted his idea player was Keith Williams. And yet, has even tried to recruit a player like Keith to cincinnati?
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I think a lot of people misquote what Brannen was saying about Keith. I believe it was more along the lines of "If I had to draw a player up he would look like Keith". I think Harvey and Gabe are more along the same lines of Keith's body and skill type than they are Cumberland. They are kind of long and lanky with slashing ability and some ball skills. Brannen wants his wing players to catch the ball in the motion offense and do something with it right away...shoot, pass, or put the ball on the ground and go make a play.

One of those two will be playing along side Keith on the wing and they are all three 6'5" and can handle the rock a little, can shoot a little, can slash a little. Keith may have a little more in terms of raw athleticism but they are pretty close in many other aspects. It's not like you can just go out and get a clone. Gabe will be a better shooter and play maker IMO before it's all over.

So not only has he recruited them...he has landed two of them
 
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justinhub2003 said:
Zach Harvey was never scouted to be an uber athletic guy.


He is a smooth athlete but nothing like Keith Williams
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We are good on guards and wings. We have Keith for another year, we have maw, pretty athletic. We have guards coming in. And brannen hasn’t even had the job for a year. Not much need to get another Keith Williams right now. We need bigs
 
skyblade said:
Yup, we see the same themes we saw early in the season. It's not like Dawkins invented some brand new way of beating our defense. It's the same way it's been all season; pull Vogt away from the basket with a big who can shoot threes, have other guys drive to the basket, get easy layups because we don't play help defense. Blame Vogt, blame the guys for getting beat off the dribble, but in the end you have to blame Brannen for refusing to adjust. It seems the only player we really focus on providing help to defensively is Vogt.

The other thing I complained about early in the season is also coming back to bite. Failing to develop our depth. We played multiple early season Q3/Q4 games where we won by 10+ and our starters played 30+ minutes.

Brannen's substitution patterns are also terrible. He puts in 3/4 subs sround the 14 minute mark of the first half and gives them 4/5 minutes, then plays the starters basically the entire second half. In addition our press and faster pace don't give guys the time to rest that Cronin's offense/defense did. I know we got mad at Cronin for pulling guys too quickly, but he at least gave the backups minutes and rested the starters. With our current rotation we aren't going anywhere in the tournament.

Yes Diarra makes mistakes, but he also makes some good plays and I'd guess his +- was close to even. Same is true for Davenport. Vogt on the other hand has been nullified on offense (it seems like teams have taken a page out of the Houston playbook of a quick, hard double and Vogt doesn't handle it well), doesn't rebound well and doesn't defend well, but Brannen gives him every minute he can.

You have to give Diarra, Harvey or Davenport minutes to give the other guys a rest.

If/when we lose another game (will be to WSU if we continue to play like we have lately), it's probably worth cutting way back on starters minutes and giving Davenport, Diarra and Harvey 15-20 minutes per game. At that point our only hope to make the NCAA tournament will be winning the AAC tournament anyway and to do that we need to develop our depth as much as possible. And if we don't make the NCAA tournament at least we will be getting guys ready for next year.
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So much of that happened without Vogt in the game. He got beat plenty on help D, but again, far more to do with the other guys
 
waterhead said:
Haha...

Will they be required to score? I am working on a list for CJB.
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obviously the ideal player im sure is keith athleticism with jaevin shooting.


im not really sure which way he wants to lean since that type of player is an extreme rarity.


im betting he would settle on a little less athletic than keith but a better shooter.


he probably wants what dayton has now. 3 guys between 6'1 and 6'5 all shooting 37% or better from 3. i have to believe that is the ideal guard/wing for john brannen.
 
cincrulz11 said:
obviously the ideal player im sure is keith athleticism with jaevin shooting.


im not really sure which way he wants to lean since that type of player is an extreme rarity.


im betting he would settle on a little less athletic than keith but a better shooter.


he probably wants what dayton has now. 3 guys between 6'1 and 6'5 all shooting 37% or better from 3. i have to believe that is the ideal guard/wing for john brannen.
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I was going to suggest Uber skilled vs uber athletic would be his choice if he had to pick. Obviously he needs a little of both on the wing.
 

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