UCF Round 2

[waterhead]

And I think he got about what he was looking for with Gabe. Harvey fell in his lap but it was a nice bonus

 

[justinhub2003]

Y’all can make jokes but Keith and Zach Harvey aren’t at all the same kinda athlete.

Nate Hinton and Keith are the same.
Quentin rose and Keith are similar

Keith Williams is an off the charts athlete. He’s like the kid that went to Kentucky diallo.


Zach is smooth athlete who is good at everything but amazing at none. He was top 50 because he had a well rounded game.

 

[TheLongHaul]

Yup, we see the same themes we saw early in the season. It's not like Dawkins invented some brand new way of beating our defense. It's the same way it's been all season; pull Vogt away from the basket with a big who can shoot threes, have other guys drive to the basket, get easy layups because we don't play help defense. Blame Vogt, blame the guys for getting beat off the dribble, but in the end you have to blame Brannen for refusing to adjust. It seems the only player we really focus on providing help to defensively is Vogt.

The other thing I complained about early in the season is also coming back to bite. Failing to develop our depth. We played multiple early season Q3/Q4 games where we won by 10+ and our starters played 30+ minutes.

Brannen's substitution patterns are also terrible. He puts in 3/4 subs sround the 14 minute mark of the first half and gives them 4/5 minutes, then plays the starters basically the entire second half. In addition our press and faster pace don't give guys the time to rest that Cronin's offense/defense did. I know we got mad at Cronin for pulling guys too quickly, but he at least gave the backups minutes and rested the starters. With our current rotation we aren't going anywhere in the tournament.

Yes Diarra makes mistakes, but he also makes some good plays and I'd guess his +- was close to even. Same is true for Davenport. Vogt on the other hand has been nullified on offense (it seems like teams have taken a page out of the Houston playbook of a quick, hard double and Vogt doesn't handle it well), doesn't rebound well and doesn't defend well, but Brannen gives him every minute he can.

You have to give Diarra, Harvey or Davenport minutes to give the other guys a rest.

If/when we lose another game (will be to WSU if we continue to play like we have lately), it's probably worth cutting way back on starters minutes and giving Davenport, Diarra and Harvey 15-20 minutes per game. At that point our only hope to make the NCAA tournament will be winning the AAC tournament anyway and to do that we need to develop our depth as much as possible. And if we don't make the NCAA tournament at least we will be getting guys ready for next year.

Look, I'm rooting for Diarra, and he has had a few games where he looked promising but he was horrid last night on both ends of the floor and sucked the life right out of the game when he was in. His errors completely changed the game in the first half.

Vogt wasn't good defending the ball last night but frankly he was better than Scott. Trevon reverted back to his earlier days trying to defend the white dude from OSU and X. He got blown by on just about every possession.

Granted, I do completely agree that Brannen should have switched to a zone. No idea why he didn't. I'm really high on Brannen, but that was a big mistake.

 

[justinhub2003]

Look, I'm rooting for Diarra, and he has had a few games where he looked promising but he was horrid last night on both ends of the floor and sucked the life right out of the game when he was in. His errors completely changed the game in the first half.

Vogt wasn't good defending the ball last night but frankly he was better than Scott. Trevon reverted back to his earlier days trying to defend the white dude from OSU and X. He got blown by on just about every possession.

Granted, I do completely agree that Brannen should have switched to a zone. No idea why he didn't. I'm really high on Brannen, but that was a big mistake.

He said from the beginning that the offense molds to the personnel but the defense always stays the same.

He literally meant every word of that. He believes In his defensive system. I’m just not sure how.

A zone defense would straight up dominate this league bc we shoot so poor

 

[TheLongHaul]

He said from the beginning that the offense molds to the personnel but the defense always stays the same.

He literally meant every word of that. He believes In his defensive system. I’m just not sure how.

A zone defense would straight up dominate this league bc we shoot so poor

But he has literally switched to zone many times, especially since about the mid-point in the season. He hasn't really been that stubborn about zone, but for whatever reason he was last night. I don't think he clings to man like Cronin clinged to his matchup zone.

 

[justinhub2003]

But he has literally switched to zone many times, especially since about the mid-point in the season. He hasn't really been that stubborn about zone, but for whatever reason he was last night. I don't think he clings to man like Cronin clinged to his matchup zone.

Sorry I should be more specific

A 2-3 zone


Not a 1-3-1

To me a 1-3-1 is a desperate gimmicky defense. It works a few possessions but is not a real viable option


And even then, my guess is we’ve less then 15 possessions of zone all season

 

[justinhub2003]

Actually I looked it up in synergy.

We’ve played just 60+ possessions of 1-3-1 all season.

That’s not a ton when spread over 26 games

 

[justinhub2003]

Looking at the synergy numbers we are poor in these aspects defensively:

Transition
Isolation
Spot up jumpers
Offensive rebound putbacks


Looking at synergy, which is likely what Dawkins used to scout UC, it’s clear he saw his biggest advantage was to isolate and drive. And it worked.

 

[Lefty]

UCF round 2

Jarron has made a lot of plays at the end of games, the majority seemingly last year. It's almost like someone has gotten together & said "we can't let that kid keep bullying his way to the basket and bailing him out with foul calls". No conspiracy theory intended. He has to adjust & hasnt.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing him go to the basket with Keith or MAW (or both) spotting up for the win. I think they both shoot well enough.
Thoughts ?

 

[JoeRunner89]

Jarron has made a lot of plays at the end of games, the majority seemingly last year. It's almost like someone has gotten together & said "we can't let that kid keep bullying his way to the basket and bailing him out with foul calls". No conspiracy theory intended. He has to adjust & hasnt.
Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing him go to the basket with Keith or MAW (or both) spotting up for the win. I think they both shoot well enough.
Thoughts ?

I wouldn't mind seeing keith get more looks, and take it to the rack more. Gotta have the legs tho. Tre and jarron been playing pretty well putting the team in position for a bid, practically saving the season im not really understanding the questioning of them as much as why in the hell are we playing so many overtime games this yr?.. Jc 2 for what 9 10 from 3? Seems to be pretty gassd right now he still put up something in the stat book, but you can def book it we gone def miss him next yr. Probably not gonna hit me we not in the tournament until them brackets are complete its ashame, was really excited about this yrs original team would of dominated this conf could of been top 10. College ball is down this yr more wide open than its been. Scoring used to be the only problem at times but yea, that davenport kid is certainly a lot of spunk and intensity but im just not seeing much there. Probably would rather have hardnett

 

[cincyguy13]

I wouldn't mind seeing keith get more looks, and take it to the rack more. Gotta have the legs tho. Tre and jarron been playing pretty well putting the team in position for a bid, practically saving the season im not really understanding the questioning of them as much as why in the hell are we playing so many overtime games this yr?.. Jc 2 for what 9 10 from 3? Seems to be pretty gassd right now he still put up something in the stat book, but you can def book it we gone def miss him next yr. Probably not gonna hit me we not in the tournament until them brackets are complete its ashame, was really excited about this yrs original team would of dominated this conf could of been top 10. College ball is down this yr more wide open than its been. Scoring used to be the only problem at times but yea, that davenport kid is certainly a lot of spunk and intensity but im just not seeing much there. Probably would rather have hardnett

Hardnett didn’t leave because of Davenport, they have nothing to do with each other. He left because of Harvey. A top 60 talent. You make that trade every time. Still confusing why people long for Logan and Hardnett. They aren’t good. At least right now. And if they are an improvement to this roster, it’s minimal at best.

 

[cincyguy13]

Looking at the synergy numbers we are poor in these aspects defensively:

Transition
Isolation
Spot up jumpers
Offensive rebound putbacks


Looking at synergy, which is likely what Dawkins used to scout UC, it’s clear he saw his biggest advantage was to isolate and drive. And it worked.

What did Dawkins do that was that original. I’ve seen you say he out coached brannen, which could very well be true but he didn’t do anything groundbreaking. He switch to a zone every couple possessions and ran a pick and roll the whole game. Wow. It’s more of brannen didn’t do anything to counter. Dawkins wasn’t amazing

 

[cincyguy13]

Brannen, mick, and any other coach knows 100 times more about basketball than anyone on here. But they aren’t perfect and each have their own philosophy. The hope is you can get the right players to run and understand that philosophy. The first year of brannen has been went downhill for some reason. Hopefully he can turn it around because if we have to get a new coach in a couple years, that’s now good for anyone. People on here will be able to say they were right but that would mean the program is in a bad place.

Having said that, I don’t know why he wouldn’t run a 2-3 zone. 2-3 is something you start running in 3rd grade and something that everyone knows. It’s not complicated. It’s basically saying, we are going to let you shoot and we dare you to make it. It would also give the guys a bit of a break. Someone should ask him at the radio show or press conference. Interested in what he’s say

 

[cincrulz11]

Having said that, I don’t know why he wouldn’t run a 2-3 zone. 2-3 is something you start running in 3rd grade and something that everyone knows. It’s not complicated. It’s basically saying, we are going to let you shoot and we dare you to make it. It would also give the guys a bit of a break. Someone should ask him at the radio show or press conference. Interested in what he’s say

2 great 3 point shooters. that might have had something to do with it. now he probably wouldn't have gone to a 2-3, but he didn't even try to 1-3-1, and its probably because they have 2 great 3 point shooters.


imagine having 2 jaevins, but 2 shooters better than jaevin. thats what ucf has.

 

[cincyguy13]

2 great 3 point shooters. that might have had something to do with it. now he probably wouldn't have gone to a 2-3, but he didn't even try to 1-3-1, and its probably because they have 2 great 3 point shooters.


imagine having 2 jaevins, but 2 shooters better than jaevin. thats what ucf has.

They still have to make the shot. He hasn’t ran a 2-3 once this year. There is more to it than they have great shooters

 

[cincrulz11]

They still have to make the shot. He hasn’t ran a 2-3 once this year. There is more to it than they have great shooters

i mean yeah he hasn't ran the 2-3 at all.



but he probably didn't go to the only zone defense we do try because they had 2 great shooters.




and again lets not forget ucf scored 13 points the last 10 minutes of regulation. thats the only reason we even got it to OT.

 

[waterhead]

Y’all can make jokes but Keith and Zach Harvey aren’t at all the same kinda athlete.

Nate Hinton and Keith are the same.
Quentin rose and Keith are similar

Keith Williams is an off the charts athlete. He’s like the kid that went to Kentucky diallo.


Zach is smooth athlete who is good at everything but amazing at none. He was top 50 because he had a well rounded game.

Keith is amazing at one thing. Jumping. He should be an elite lock down defender but is not...he can be. He can fly to the rack but shows little judgement in doing so too often. Jarron Cumberland does a lot more with a lot less athleticism. Because he has more BB IQ. He understands how to get defenders off balance and take advantage of that...and he can shoot. If Gabe Madsen can do all the things Keith can do and shows higher BB IQ, better shooting etc...but lacks a little pop in his step...I will take that every day. SK was another limited athlete who just knew how to play the game. He nor Jarron had killer ball skills or could jump very high.

I love Keith and I would not trade him out...but elite hops only get you so far if you don't understand how to control your drives to the lane. He doesn't have an ankle breaker cross over...his one move is a straight line to the base line which is only open a fraction of the time because that is where the D is okay with him going. He uses the occasional step back but too often it's for a long 2 instead of a 3 or a short range 2.

In Keiths 3rd year he is still only the 3rd or 4th option on the team. Next year will likely be different but Jarron was POY in his junior year. Jarron can barely dunk a BB at 6'5". A slow mid major backup transfer center became the 2nd option. Tre has been making a solid case for 3rd option.

We can feature Keith next year but I am not sure how consistent he will be. I hope he kills it and gets to go to the league!

 

[cincrulz11]

Keith is amazing at one thing. Jumping. He should be an elite lock down defender but is not

keith isn't a lock down defender cause he has stiff hips. he's good in a straight line and explosive as a jumper. but he doesn't turn, which prevents him from being an elite lock down defender.



and its why a guy like harvey can be one. maybe not as explosive, but he's extremely fluid and can stay with guys.



the guys in the nba have keiths explosiveness and are fluid athletes.

 

[CareBat]

Keith is amazing at one thing. Jumping. He should be an elite lock down defender but is not...he can be. He can fly to the rack but shows little judgement in doing so too often. Jarron Cumberland does a lot more with a lot less athleticism. Because he has more BB IQ. He understands how to get defenders off balance and take advantage of that...and he can shoot. If Gabe Madsen can do all the things Keith can do and shows higher BB IQ, better shooting etc...but lacks a little pop in his step...I will take that every day. SK was another limited athlete who just knew how to play the game. He nor Jarron had killer ball skills or could jump very high.

I love Keith and I would not trade him out...but elite hops only get you so far if you don't understand how to control your drives to the lane. He doesn't have an ankle breaker cross over...his one move is a straight line to the base line which is only open a fraction of the time because that is where the D is okay with him going. He uses the occasional step back but too often it's for a long 2 instead of a 3 or a short range 2.

In Keiths 3rd year he is still only the 3rd or 4th option on the team. Next year will likely be different but Jarron was POY in his junior year. Jarron can barely dunk a BB at 6'5". A slow mid major backup transfer center became the 2nd option. Tre has been making a solid case for 3rd option.

We can feature Keith next year but I am not sure how consistent he will be. I hope he kills it and gets to go to the league!

Get ready for a lot more tie ups and Keith's layups getting blocked

 

[cincyguy13]

i mean yeah he hasn't ran the 2-3 at all.



but he probably didn't go to the only zone defense we do try because they had 2 great shooters.




and again lets not forget ucf scored 13 points the last 10 minutes of regulation. thats the only reason we even got it to OT.

So you’re whole strategy is to do something that hasn’t worked for 30 minutes and hope the players increase the effort? Your strategy is hope? As opposed to trying to change something? Just trying to get on the same page.