Drake

[waterhead]

Last night was fun to watch.

And it shows how much functional depth we have.


it shows you how good OSU defended us and rarely made mistakes which is what this offensive depends on.
Drake didn't provide much resistance at all. They didn't gamble. But still to execute your offense in a live game is great for getting better.


But I do think it remains to be seen how this style of offense works against teams like Xavier, Tennessee and even Iowa. We know it works at the mid major level. But how it functions against good defense is still something Im curious about. \

Regardless, it was fun.. we should have an even easier ride on Thursday against Alabama A&M

I didn't think it (offense) worked too bad against OSU. We just didn't make shots. Of course we could tally that up to a better D but some of that is just missing shots. So far so good IMO. Had we beat OSU I would be dreaming of really big things. But right now...with players not having a full grasp on the new system...I think we might just be ahead of the curve. Especially considering we don't have more than half of the offense installed yet.

 

[sedziobs]

I am more worried about his offense in this system. He is perfect for the top of the key passing that Vogt and Sorolla are getting right now. He would be great in pick and roll. But he has to be one of the perimeter guys because Vogt and Sorolla can't shoot. If Diara could play it would alleviate all of that stuff but it doesn't look like that will be the case. Scott will suffer a bit unless we play small ball. He's the guy we need at the top of the key.

This offense doesn't really have "perimeter" guys. Or rather, everyone is a perimeter guy. The offense also doesn't have any one player designated for the top of the key. We're playing a 5 out motion. That means the standard position for every player is outside the 3 point line. One or two players at a time will cut or dribble to the interior, and the others will rotate but stay outside. This process repeats until a shot goes up. The top of the key is generally only used for reversals. Most entries and screens occur on the wings. This video shows some simple schemes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQML3kogLPo

It's way different than the high ball screen sets we used to run with Cronin. Scott just needs to learn where to run and pass to with quicker decisions. I think he'll get there. Jarron seems a bit behind too. It's ok that Vogt and Sorolla can't shoot - they just need to crash hard when someone drives so they'll be able to take a pass if their man helps.

 

[sedziobs]

this is the 2nd game in a row Scott looked bad on defense. It appears he just might not be a good man defender.

Lol, this has been clear to me since the middle of last season!

I'm beginning to think we need to stop switching all screens. It's pretty clear at this point that Scott cannot play perimeter defense.

 

[cincrulz11]

Lol, this has been clear to me since the middle of last season!

so he can't play the perimeter, he's getting destroyed inside. what do you do with him.



for me scott was a guy i didn't think to worry about because we had so many other things to worry about. he's so out of place on both ends of the floor. hopefully with more time he'll get it figured out.

 

[sedziobs]

so he can't play the perimeter, he's getting destroyed inside. what do you do with him.

I don't know, but this is why I don't think we're going small very often. Scott can't replace the roles that a big 5 man plays in Brannen's system. He's going to have to learn how to cut and pass like all of the other players. I still don't have a great grasp of what Brannen is doing on defense yet. Hopefully Scott can learn to fit those schemes too.

 

[cincrulz11]

I don't know, but this is why I don't think we're going small very often. Scott can't replace the roles that a big 5 man plays in Brannen's system. He's going to have to learn how to cut and pass like all of the other players. I still don't have a great grasp of what Brannen is doing on defense yet. Hopefully Scott can learn to fit those schemes too.

Yeah I was really over estimating scotts ability to play the 5 in a small ball lineup.


I will say on the positive for Scott, at the very least he looked less hesitant to shoot the 3 ball when he did shoot it last night. Thats a step in the right direction.

 

[waterhead]

Lol, this has been clear to me since the middle of last season!

Okay so what do we hope for? Justin Jackson or Titus Rubles? Both were absolute superior defenders but neither could shoot a basketball to save their life. Gary Clark was one of the only 4's in the Cronin era that could do a little of both and that didn't really happen till he was JR.

Tre is mobile. Tre can shoot just a little. He can use some coaching on D but this isn't the Cronin era anymore. We won't be seeing much of CJB recruiting JJ or Rubles anymore. Tre is a pretty decent transition guy. Let's not compare him to what we are used to in Cronin's game plan.

 

[TheLivingLegend]

Okay so what do we hope for? Justin Jackson or Titus Rubles? Both were absolute superior defenders but neither could shoot a basketball to save their life. Gary Clark was one of the only 4's in the Cronin era that could do a little of both and that didn't really happen till he was JR.

Tre is mobile. Tre can shoot just a little. He can use some coaching on D but this isn't the Cronin era anymore. We won't be seeing much of CJB recruiting JJ or Rubles anymore. Tre is a pretty decent transition guy. Let's not compare him to what we are used to in Cronin's game plan.

Id take Justin Jackson on this team in a heartbeat....

Tre has one job. Rebound. He will get minutes if he can get 10+ boards a night.

 

[waterhead]

Okay so what do we hope for? Justin Jackson or Titus Rubles? Both were absolute superior defenders but neither could shoot a basketball to save their life. Gary Clark was one of the only 4's in the Cronin era that could do a little of both and that didn't really happen till he was JR.

Tre is mobile. Tre can shoot just a little. He can use some coaching on D but this isn't the Cronin era anymore. We won't be seeing much of CJB recruiting JJ or Rubles anymore. Tre is a pretty decent transition guy. Let's not compare him to what we are used to in Cronin's game plan.

My point is how do you come up with a superior defending 4 and not sacrifice some offense or vice versa? It's fun to speculate about but we all know where those 4's are going. Duke, UK etc. We can get some guards easily by just paying attention. Good bigs are tough to come by. Everyone is paying attention. Gary Clark is the only guy Cronin ever recruited that was a solid 4 on both ends...and Cronin had over a decade to accomplish that feat.

 

[waterhead]

Id take Justin Jackson on this team in a heartbeat....

Tre has one job. Rebound. He will get minutes if he can get 10+ boards a night.

He is averaging 11.5 boards right now in limited minutes...

 

[waterhead]

He is averaging 11.5 boards right now in limited minutes...

There is nobody else on our team within 6 boards of him on avg.

 

[sedziobs]

Waterhead, read everything I wrote. I'm not asking for a superior defender. And I'm actually trying to dissuade everyone else from evaluating players according the Cronin system, including you (why are you bringing up other Cronin players?). There are no more "perimeter guys" and "inside guys". The new system requires quick decision making and precise passing on the perimeter by all players. Scott needs to learn how to do those things. I've already said we want players in the mold of Al Horford and Marc Gasol for the new system. Obviously college players will be worse than them, but players with their skillsets is what Brannen will be looking for. Consider that Sorolla is leading all regular players in assist rate.

Scott will find his place on this team. No one is suggesting to cut him. His rebounding numbers are good so far. Hopefully he can maintain that as he adjusts.

 

[justinhub2003]

Tre Scott has the 22nd highest offensive rebound rate in the country through 2 games.

And he had some lapses last night but guard smaller players is tough. It’s why Steph curry loved getting switched onto a big.

But even then when you look at the facts.... as in the synergy possession by possession facts, he is grading out as an “Excellent” defender through 2 games.

I have no concerns with Tre Scott on defense long term. How many 6’4 guys will he guard in the AAC?

My biggest issue with Tre is his offensive approach. I never want the ball in his hands too long. He either needs to catch it and shoot it, catch it and immediately drive the ball or catch it and pass. He isn’t a smart play maker, he looks nervous with the ball in his hands for too long

 

[justinhub2003]

Lol

Who in the world would have thought that after 2 games, our 2 highest usage players would be Jarron Cumberland & Chris Vogt

Vogt has a higher usage rate then Keith or Jaevin

 

[waterhead]

Waterhead, read everything I wrote. I'm not asking for a superior defender. And I'm actually trying to dissuade everyone else from evaluating players according the Cronin system, including you (why are you bringing up other Cronin players?). There are no more "perimeter guys" and "inside guys". The new system requires quick decision making and precise passing on the perimeter by all players. Scott needs to learn how to do those things. I've already said we want players in the mold of Al Horford and Marc Gasol for the new system. Obviously college players will be worse than them, but players with their skillsets is what Brannen will be looking for. Consider that Sorolla is leading all regular players in assist rate.

Scott will find his place on this team. No one is suggesting to cut him. His rebounding numbers are good so far. Hopefully he can maintain that as he adjusts.

My post had to do with his defense which was the subject i was responding to. I think he’s a decent defender but maybe not elite like jj or rubles. My point was if you have an elite defender who can guard 5 positions and also score the ball they are likely going to a blue blood program. Take your pick between offense or D...we likely aren’t getting both from a big.

 

[sedziobs]

I think I've been clear that we'll be looking for bigs who at minimum are good passers on the perimeter. Not elite defenders who can also score (we'd take it though), not JJ, not Rubles. There are many types of basketball players, not just "good at offense" and "good at defense."

 

[TheLivingLegend]

I think I've been clear that we'll be looking for bigs who at minimum are good passers on the perimeter. Not elite defenders who can also score (we'd take it though), not JJ, not Rubles. There are many types of basketball players, not just "good at offense" and "good at defense."

JJ was far better than ur giving him credit for.

 

[itsamemario]

JJ was far better than ur giving him credit for.

To be fair. He only had 1 good year.

Hes kind of like Jenifer. It took them 3 years to figure out what they needed to do. Jenifer finally learned that he needs time and space to take his shots and to not force things. Jackson finally learned to not shoot the ball and make his layups. Jackson scored 90% of his points his senior year from within 3 feet of the basket

 

[cincrulz11]

JJ was far better than ur giving him credit for.

he's just talking stylistically. he wants guys that can read the backdoor cut and actually make the pass. Sorolla is very good at this.



a big guy that can set screens, pass from the top of the key, and muscle his man under the hoop.

 

[sedziobs]

he's just talking stylistically. he wants guys that can read the backdoor cut and actually make the pass. Sorolla is very good at this.

a big guy that can set screens, pass from the top of the key, and muscle his man under the hoop.

Yes.

Everyone, I'm trying NOT to talk about ex-Cronin players. Waterhead brought up JJ and Rubles. I'm saying we need to move on from those kind of comparisons. We are playing a completely new style now. This conversation started because I said Scott needs work adjusting to the new style. That's really the whole argument. I'm not comparing him to older players or claiming that he should be benched.

I have always thought Scott is a bad perimeter defender, but even when I mentioned that last year my point was to stop switching him on screens, not to bench him. We're talking about college basketball players. They all have holes in their game. Pointing out flaws does not mean I think they suck or we have to replace them with a blue blood recruit or a great player from Bearcats history.