Good breakdown, and I agree, I was surprised and embarrassed that game only drew 7k. The sad truth is so many fans aren't impressed with an opponent unless there's a little number next to their name. A couple more wins and we should have one of our own and that always helps with perception locally and nationally.
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upstate game thread
- Thread starter UCalum08
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Good breakdown, and I agree, I was surprised and embarrassed that game only drew 7k. The sad truth is so many fans aren't impressed with an opponent unless there's a little number next to their name. A couple more wins and we should have one of our own and that always helps with perception locally and nationally.
Patrick Bateman
Well-known member
Good breakdown, and I agree, I was surprised and embarrassed that game only drew 7k. The sad truth is so many fans aren't impressed with an opponent unless there's a little number next to their name. A couple more wins and we should have one of our own and that always helps with perception locally and nationally.
Keep in mind for TV and ESPN purposes that game was at 5 pm on a Tuesday.
And keep in mind when talking about X and their conference being superior to ours that they are not on ESPN all season, we are on 11 times I think. That will have a huge affect going forward.
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Robert
Well-known member
Keep in mind for TV and ESPN purposes that game was at 5 pm on a Tuesday.
Exactly. Put that game on a Saturday and you're looking at 9,000, easily. Still not great, but the time and day definitely had a negative effect.
JackBauer151
Well-known member
Keep in mind for TV and ESPN purposes that game was at 5 pm on a Tuesday.
And keep in mind when talking about X and their conference being superior to ours that they are not on ESPN all season, we are on 11 times I think. That will have a huge affect going forward.
I never said they were in a superior conference. I said they were winning conference titles and going deep into the tournament. The ESPN deal is the saving grace of us getting kicked out of the OLD Beast. The new Beast is not even remotely close to what we left. God I cant wait to beat the dog shit out of those mouseketeers.
CaptDale
Well-known member
Blocks are blocks. They don't differentiate them in the stats. You think JJ only blocks players his own size or bigger? Space eater? For a freshman he moved pretty well. I suppose you like Big Dave? Mick needs to come up with a game plan to defend Kirk. It going to have to go beyond the swarming defense. Whatever he comes up with will lay the groundwork for future encounters with competent bigs.... His two blocks were against shorter opponents. As for his boards, he's a space eater. To be expected. As far as New Mexico goes, they just survived UAB. They're not the team we faced last year.
So many things wrong with this post. First off you have no idea what the circumstances were behind Mick not calling Pitino. So saying he dropped the ball when you have no earthly idea what went on is making a quick assumption. Again I agree with your point about scheduling better OOC mid majors. Im not even going to respond to the AK nonsense again. Stupid on all levels. Mick's first 5 years here were a disaster. Who would want to play us? While that was going on Xavier was winning conference titles and going to the sweet 16. With schedules being made years out in advance is it really surprising that X is able to get better games than we are? No. The reasons for the shitty schedule are pretty identifiable. This is not a video game where you can just pick who you want to play. You have to make the right decision for your program and it has to coincide with a plethora of other factors. The schedule is getting better (And has to) with us losing the Beast conference. Also keep in mind a lot of the great games played in OOC are early season tournaments. Most can only take one team from a conference. When we were in the BEAST its tough to get those games because the tournaments have so many good teams to chose from. I agree Mick has to do a better job at a lot of areas but he takes much more heat on this subject than he deserves. Also way to go UC fans for the NC State game. That team had multiple McDonalds All Americans on it and we managed just over 7,000 fans. Need to do our part too.
You have no idea what went on between Mick and Pitino either. So, in absence of the facts, we can only take Pitino at his word, which is a direct quote, and the quote says, "If Mick had asked first, he would have been on the schedule." It's hard to argue the only fact we have been presented, and it came out of the mouth of a Hall of Fame coach who is Mick's friend. No reason for him to lie.
You accuse me of nonsense when your post is full of more nonsense than you accuse me of......for instance....."the schedule is getting better." Maybe you didn't read my earlier post. Our schedule strngth today in Kenpom is 348 of 351. Now, unless last year was 351, 350, or 349, it's pretty hard to say our schedule is getting better. Then you say..."Mick's first 5 years here were a disaster. Who would want to play us?" Well, after 50-some years, Ohio State jumped right on board to play us immediately for the easy win. For every reason you guys say Mick can't schedule anyone good, I can counter with reasons why we should have had our pick of good opponents. i.e....Let's get Cincinnati while they are down. It's a high profile program that suddenly sucks. They have name recognition, so there's a huge upside. It looks like a far better win and comes with little or no risk. Ohio State obviously thought so.
On this site, hearsay, conjecture, and assumptions will always trump facts. The facts say Mick is a really good Xs and Os coach. He does a lot with a little. But, the job is a lot bigger than Xs and Os. The head coach is the face of the program and is the frontman in selling it to fans and recruits and I don't think he has done well in this area. The trend line is still going up, but at a slow pace. I'll say it again.....he's a damn good coach, but he needs to improve in some of the other areas of his job to reach elite status, or to get this program to elite status.
charlie hustle
Well-known member
Do you think they'll be able to find me seats equal to as good as mine? I'm in section 213 halfway up right now, which aren't amazing seats, but I don't want to move to upper corner seats and pay the same price just to be on UC's side.
i actually had to take slightly worse seats (was in the 100 section in the corner, still ended up in the 100 section but one section further behind the backboard), so i don't have any positive feedback for you there.
but it couldn't hurt to call and ask. plus if i could have done it over again, i would have asked them to refund my "convenience" fee since it wasn't very convenient for me to (A) not know which side is which, (B) have to call them back to get DIFFERENT seats, and (C) end up with worse seats for the same price.
damn...
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Patrick Bateman
Well-known member
Blocks are blocks. They don't differentiate them in the stats. You think JJ only blocks players his own size or bigger? Space eater? For a freshman he moved pretty well. I suppose you like Big Dave? Mick needs to come up with a game plan to defend Kirk. It going to have to go beyond the swarming defense. Whatever he comes up with will lay the groundwork for future encounters with competent bigs.
He moved pretty well? Not from what I saw. At least twice they fed him in the post and he couldn't even bend down to get the entry pass and it went out of bounds. He was extremely immobile and slow. There is a reason that when he was in the game Mick put Big Dave in.
We may try to take the ball at Kirk and try to get him in foul trouble. I am looking forward to the test.
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Patrick Bateman
Well-known member
Again.....Rick Pitino's quote....not mine.....“Mick’s a very close friend and ex-colleague of mine, but Memphis asked first,” Pitino said earlier this week. “Had Mick asked first it would have been him on the schedule rather than Memphis, but Memphis asked first.”
Louisville is an absolute no brainer annual game and Mick dropped the ball. There are 350 potential opponents. I don't believe for a minute that he can't schedule teams that at least bring our schedule strength under 200. Today, it is a robust 348 of 351 teams. Not a single coach gave us a vote in the coach's poll. Only 8 gave us votes in the AP. You don't think our schedule has a lot to do with that? I don't care how good USC Upstate and NC Central are. The whole world believes they are patsies no matter how high they are ranked in Kenpom (which today is 128 and 108). Even though their rank would suggest they are a mid-major, nobody views them as mid-major. One is in the America Sun and the other is in the MEAC...not mid-major conferences. Those are low major.
Until Mick signs some top recruits, plays the best competition, has the program consistently in the Top 20, makes some long runs in the NCAA, etc., the fans just won't embrace him or the program. We've been to the NCAA tournament 3 straight years and have played in the top conference in the world. To offer up some lame excuse why he can't take down the Andy Kennedy team in average attendance is just that...an excuse. Bottom line, there is no excuse for our attendance. There are only facts. He hasn't been a great recruiter like we all thought he would be, and his OOC schedule has been pathetic. In the first 17 years of the Shoe, playing only in a Mid-major conference, we only drew under 10,000 fans per game twice....in the 1st year and in the Andy Kennedy year. There were only two other years where we drew under 12,000 fans per game...in Huggs last year and in 1998. Playing in the #1 conference in the world under Mick, we haven't had a single season that supassed any of the previous 17.
Under Mick's watch, Xavier has supassed us in attendance and in conference affiliation. Oh by the way, Xavier can somehow play an OOC schedule that includes....Tennessee twice, Morehead St., Miami, Iowa, Southern Cal, Bowling Green, Evansville, Cincinnati, Alabama, Wake Forest, etc. Amazing how teams are dying to play in Cintas with a capacity of 3,000 less than the Shoe, but Mick somehow scares all of them away.
This is what I was referring to JB151
JackBauer151
Well-known member
This is what I was referring to JB151
Thanks for the clarification.
Blocks are blocks. They don't differentiate them in the stats. You think JJ only blocks players his own size or bigger? Space eater? For a freshman he moved pretty well. I suppose you like Big Dave? Mick needs to come up with a game plan to defend Kirk. It going to have to go beyond the swarming defense. Whatever he comes up with will lay the groundwork for future encounters with competent bigs.
Kirk isn't representitive of the prototypical center. He shoots a lot of jump shots, some from beyond the arc. I don't think there is another big we'll meet this year quite like him. Euro-style bigs are actually pretty rare in the college game.
As for the rest, I'm sorry but blocks are not just blocks. Some require a 6'11 guy to simply put his hand up to a 6'1-6'3 guard driving the ball. You think Buchanon would last long jumping out of the gym like Jackson for his?
A space eater isn't inherently a stiff, he moved okay but his rebounds weren't out of his area or anything. He got those boards on virtue of his size. Kid wasn't crazy athletic or pulling acrobatic feats to get them.
JackBauer151
Well-known member
You have no idea what went on between Mick and Pitino either. So, in absence of the facts, we can only take Pitino at his word, which is a direct quote, and the quote says, "If Mick had asked first, he would have been on the schedule." It's hard to argue the only fact we have been presented, and it came out of the mouth of a Hall of Fame coach who is Mick's friend. No reason for him to lie.
You accuse me of nonsense when your post is full of more nonsense than you accuse me of......for instance....."the schedule is getting better." Maybe you didn't read my earlier post. Our schedule strngth today in Kenpom is 348 of 351. Now, unless last year was 351, 350, or 349, it's pretty hard to say our schedule is getting better. Then you say..."Mick's first 5 years here were a disaster. Who would want to play us?" Well, after 50-some years, Ohio State jumped right on board to play us immediately for the easy win. For every reason you guys say Mick can't schedule anyone good, I can counter with reasons why we should have had our pick of good opponents. i.e....Let's get Cincinnati while they are down. It's a high profile program that suddenly sucks. They have name recognition, so there's a huge upside. It looks like a far better win and comes with little or no risk. Ohio State obviously thought so.
On this site, hearsay, conjecture, and assumptions will always trump facts. The facts say Mick is a really good Xs and Os coach. He does a lot with a little. But, the job is a lot bigger than Xs and Os. The head coach is the face of the program and is the frontman in selling it to fans and recruits and I don't think he has done well in this area. The trend line is still going up, but at a slow pace. I'll say it again.....he's a damn good coach, but he needs to improve in some of the other areas of his job to reach elite status, or to get this program to elite status.
I never claimed I did know. You are the one making assumptions Im saying I dont know. Very convenient you use a stat that talks about today being 348 out 351. Lets see how that stat looks after the next 3 OOC games we play. Overall schedule is getting better not just the snap shot you just offered. For the 3rd friggin time I agree UC needs to do a better job of getting better cupcakes. All of those counter arguments are nice but they dont line up with reality. Teams dont schedule other teams because of what it looks like or a chance to kick a good program while they are down. It is all about building your resume and protecting the interest of your program. OSU knew we were cupcakes and the dynamic has always been us bitching about them never playing us. They killed two birds with one stone. That dynamic didnt exist with any other high major. Also from Mick's perspective why would he bring in all these high majors (If they actually wanted to come in and play) when his team is absolute shit. He was trying to rebuild something. Need as many wins as you can get to reassemble the perception of the program. Now that has been rebuilt and we are getting better games. I hope that trend continues but its still an argument that doesnt carry weight when you claim its all Micks fault for things that are out of his control. I do actually agree with you about him not being that good of a salesman. He definitely needs to be better at that. And the very last line in your post I have said in my previous ones.
I find this whole schedule argument stupid. We can't change anything so no need to get worked up over it. Only thing we can control is attendance. Go to the games no matter who we play. Go watch OUR team - not our opponent. Yea, some games are flat out terrible to watch at times, and I would love for the powerhouse teams to come to Fifth Third too, but it isn't going to happen like many want. With the way this team plays defense and hustles, they deserve more fans to show up. If you can't appreciate just watching our team play I don't know what to tell you, regardless of opponent.
Everyone that wants us to play more local small schools are assuming those teams want to come here and play or have open spots on their schedule. Nobody here knows what goes on behind the scenes when putting the schedule together. I'm sure Mick isn't telling OU, Kent State, or WKU thanks but no thanks. And please, adding NKU, Bowling Green, Evansville, etc. isn't going to add thousands to our attendance or create any more buzz. There are only a handful of mid-majors that could do that.
You also have to remember that some of those MAC-type schools would want a 2 for 1 series. Off the top of my head I know we had to play at Wright State, UAB, Miami, Marshall and Toledo in recent years. Not saying we are above everyone else and should refuse to play those teams on the road, but what would people say if we lost to one of those teams on the road? I'd guess a lot would question why we played them at their arena in the first place.
Yes we will need to schedule tougher with the new conference, especially next year without Louisville, but like Jack said, this isn't a video game where you can play any team, anywhere, on any date at any time. Money, TV, location, arena availability, calendar date, and more things have to add up.
Everyone that wants us to play more local small schools are assuming those teams want to come here and play or have open spots on their schedule. Nobody here knows what goes on behind the scenes when putting the schedule together. I'm sure Mick isn't telling OU, Kent State, or WKU thanks but no thanks. And please, adding NKU, Bowling Green, Evansville, etc. isn't going to add thousands to our attendance or create any more buzz. There are only a handful of mid-majors that could do that.
You also have to remember that some of those MAC-type schools would want a 2 for 1 series. Off the top of my head I know we had to play at Wright State, UAB, Miami, Marshall and Toledo in recent years. Not saying we are above everyone else and should refuse to play those teams on the road, but what would people say if we lost to one of those teams on the road? I'd guess a lot would question why we played them at their arena in the first place.
Yes we will need to schedule tougher with the new conference, especially next year without Louisville, but like Jack said, this isn't a video game where you can play any team, anywhere, on any date at any time. Money, TV, location, arena availability, calendar date, and more things have to add up.
JackBauer151
Well-known member
I find this whole schedule argument stupid. We can't change anything so no need to get worked up over it. Only thing we can control is attendance. Go to the games no matter who we play. Go watch OUR team - not our opponent. Yea, some games are flat out terrible to watch at times, and I would love for the powerhouse teams to come to Fifth Third too, but it isn't going to happen like many want. With the way this team plays defense and hustles, they deserve more fans to show up. If you can't appreciate just watching our team play I don't know what to tell you, regardless of opponent.
Everyone that wants us to play more local small schools are assuming those teams want to come here and play or have open spots on their schedule. Nobody here knows what goes on behind the scenes when putting the schedule together. I'm sure Mick isn't telling OU, Kent State, or WKU thanks but no thanks. And please, adding NKU, Bowling Green, Evansville, etc. isn't going to add thousands to our attendance or create any more buzz. There are only a handful of mid-majors that could do that.
You also have to remember that some of those MAC-type schools would want a 2 for 1 series. Off the top of my head I know we had to play at Wright State, UAB, Miami, Marshall and Toledo in recent years. Not saying we are above everyone else and should refuse to play those teams on the road, but what would people say if we lost to one of those teams on the road? I'd guess a lot would question why we played them at their arena in the first place.
Yes we will need to schedule tougher with the new conference, especially next year without Louisville, but like Jack said, this isn't a video game where you can play any team, anywhere, on any date at any time. Money, TV, location, arena availability, calendar date, and more things have to add up.
Completely agree 100%
Patrick Bateman
Well-known member
I remember before the season even started and everyone was talking about the schedule saying that with a lot of fresh faces that the weak start would be just what the team needs. If the soft part of the schedule got the frosh's feet wet, and allowed some chemistry to take place than is it worth it? Especially if we play with the confidence and the smothering defense we did last night and get into the NCAA, the schedule could be useful. This is definitely the softest part of the schedule, it gets a lot tougher now. We still have about 25 games to play, it is definitely a marathon.
I remember before the season even started and everyone was talking about the schedule saying that with a lot of fresh faces that the weak start would be just what the team needs. If the soft part of the schedule got the frosh's feet wet, and allowed some chemistry to take place than is it worth it? Especially if we play with the confidence and the smothering defense we did last night and get into the NCAA, the schedule could be useful. This is definitely the softest part of the schedule, it gets a lot tougher now. We still have about 25 games to play, it is definitely a marathon.
This is also a great point. Not only was it helpful with the freshmen, but also with some older guys who have new and bigger roles this year. It has definitely helped Jackson, Titus and Ge'lawn. You can see them getting more comfortable each game. Throwing them into the fire right away could have been trouble. They might have learned from it, but their confidence levels are at an all time high right now. I like where we are as a team going into our tough OOC stretch coming up.
Robert
Well-known member
Well, I'm glad some of you are perfectly happy with watching crappy, no-name teams come to Fifth Third. There is nothing wrong with having some cupcakes on your schedule, and yes, it is good for the young guys. But this early stretch is ridiculous. The games against the North Carolina teams were a part of a pre-season tournament, so I understand that. It was a great 4-game stretch to get the young guys acclimated, with one respected opponent on national television sprinkled in there.
But if you want to see attendance rise, you can't follow that up with UMass-Lowell, Kennesaw State, and USC Upstate. I am CERTAIN that we can get teams like Miami and Ohio to play us at Fifth Third. If it is a 2 for 1, so be it. Playing Dayton would be good for RPI and great for both fan bases. It will put butts in the seats at both of our arenas. Are they not asking us to play? Then let's ask them! Be proactive. Replace 2 of those 3 garbage games with any combination of Miami, Ohio, NKY, Wright State, or Dayton and you're looking at much higher attendance and better RPI potential without making your schedule a murderer's row.
But if you want to see attendance rise, you can't follow that up with UMass-Lowell, Kennesaw State, and USC Upstate. I am CERTAIN that we can get teams like Miami and Ohio to play us at Fifth Third. If it is a 2 for 1, so be it. Playing Dayton would be good for RPI and great for both fan bases. It will put butts in the seats at both of our arenas. Are they not asking us to play? Then let's ask them! Be proactive. Replace 2 of those 3 garbage games with any combination of Miami, Ohio, NKY, Wright State, or Dayton and you're looking at much higher attendance and better RPI potential without making your schedule a murderer's row.
Robert
Well-known member
And I still think playing 7 straight games at home to open the season is silly. Spread the home games out a little more and you might see an increase in attendance.
Expected OOC SOS: 125
That's better than teams such as Louisville (184), Pitt (200), and Indiana (240) to name a few. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Sure, the schedule could improve, but this is far from a terrible OOC schedule.
That's better than teams such as Louisville (184), Pitt (200), and Indiana (240) to name a few. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Sure, the schedule could improve, but this is far from a terrible OOC schedule.
Robert
Well-known member
Expected OOC SOS: 125
That's better than teams such as Louisville (184), Pitt (200), and Indiana (240) to name a few. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. Sure, the schedule could improve, but this is far from a terrible OOC schedule.
You're probably right about making a mountain out of a molehill... Our schedule for this season was probably mostly set 2 years ago before everybody left the Big East. In other words, yes, we should give them the benefit of the doubt this season. But in the future, we need smarter scheduling... home games spread out a little better, more effort to play quality mid-major teams that will help attendance, etc.
Pitt is in the ACC and Louisville will join them there next year. Indiana is in the Big Ten. And Indiana and Louisville have rabid fan bases with national names -- in other words, they can schedule whoever they want because fans will show up regardless. And all 3 have better arenas than we do. Plus, the Big Ten and ACC are arguably the best conferences in college basketball, so their OOC RPI isn't that important. The issue we were talking about though is attendance, and one obvious way to help attendance is to schedule better.