Xavier

[cincrulz11]

Diarra battles far more than Vogt for tough rebounds. If you aren't seeing that, you aren't watching the games.

vogt pins his guy down a lot and scott's rebounding rates have gone through the roof.


last year we were 224 in the country in preventing offensive rebounds at 29.4%. this year we are 86 at 25.6%.


our rebounding on defense has greatly improved despite losing the all mighty brooks and having guards that aren't rebounding much.

 

[cincyalum2014]

Diarra battles far more than Vogt for tough rebounds. If you aren't seeing that, you aren't watching the games.

obviously you are the one not watching... everyone see's it except you... this team is not any better if you swapped Vogt's minutes and gave them to Diarra, in fact we would be worse. I don't care what the analytics say, Diarra fumbles around out there getting yelled at by his own teammates because he is so lost and out of position. I am not saying Vogt is amazing because he is not... But he has exceeded pretty much everyone's expectations on how we thought he would be. I don't even want to know where this team is right now if Vogt had to sit this year.

 

[cincrulz11]

obviously you are the one not watching... everyone see's it except you... this team is not any better if you swapped Vogt's minutes and gave them to Diarra, in fact we would be worse. I don't care what the analytics say, Diarra fumbles around out there getting yelled at by his own teammates because he is so lost and out of position. I am not saying Vogt is amazing because he is not... But he has exceeded pretty much everyone's expectations on how we thought he would be. I don't even want to know where this team is right now if Vogt had to sit this year.

i mean analytic wise he's trying to take a stat, one that is questionable to begin with and doesn't really measure an individual exclusively, and say a guy playing 20% of the minutes would put up the same stats if he played 80% of the minutes.



its just not really how it works.

 

[TheLivingLegend]

Id be okay shifting minutes to Mamadou for tre Scott....

But no way for vogt.

 

[cincyguy13]

The Vogt hate from sky blade is getting weirder. Saying brooks was better, I at least get that, but saying Diarra is better is like saying kelvin Gaines was better than Gary clark.

 

[skyblade]

vogt pins his guy down a lot and scott's rebounding rates have gone through the roof.


last year we were 224 in the country in preventing offensive rebounds at 29.4%. this year we are 86 at 25.6%.


our rebounding on defense has greatly improved despite losing the all mighty brooks and having guards that aren't rebounding much.

Last year we played a zone defense. Zones are generally more difficult to rebound from (and require the guards to rebound more). This year we play almost exclusively man-to-man.

 

[skyblade]

The Vogt hate from sky blade is getting weirder. Saying brooks was better, I at least get that, but saying Diarra is better is like saying kelvin Gaines was better than Gary clark.

I haven't said that Diarra is better overall - just that he has far more potential. But Diarra is clearly better defensively and at rebounding. I think they should be used situationally. If Vogt is playing well on offense or dominates the other team with his size, then he should play.

But if Vogt is getting abused on defense (like he was against Xavier), then Diarra should play.

 

[Cpaw]

The Vogt hate from sky blade is getting weirder. Saying brooks was better, I at least get that, but saying Diarra is better is like saying kelvin Gaines was better than Gary clark.

This made my day.

 

[skyblade]

obviously you are the one not watching... everyone see's it except you... this team is not any better if you swapped Vogt's minutes and gave them to Diarra, in fact we would be worse. I don't care what the analytics say, Diarra fumbles around out there getting yelled at by his own teammates because he is so lost and out of position. I am not saying Vogt is amazing because he is not... But he has exceeded pretty much everyone's expectations on how we thought he would be. I don't even want to know where this team is right now if Vogt had to sit this year.

I'm not the only one who sees that Vogt is a bad defensive player and very bad at help defense. Heck even Brannen acknowledged it it the press conference. In the post game press conference, in reference to Jones he said "in the second half, he kicked our tail".

Vogt is the worst starting center on the defensive end that UC has had in as far back as I can recall. I understand that people want offense too, but the center position impacts the game more than any other position on the defensive end and rebounding.

It's very hard to be a very good defense when your starting center is not a good defender. We managed it a few years ago with Kyle Washington, but Washington was better defensively than Vogt, was taken out when he didn't matchup well with the other team and had Gary Clark next to him.

 

[cincrulz11]

Last year we played a zone defense. Zones are generally more difficult to rebound from (and require the guards to rebound more). This year we play almost exclusively man-to-man.

yeah and your guy that you say can't rebound does a great job of not letting his man get offensive rebounds. if you play man and you can't rebound, you give up a lot of offensive rebounds.



micks defense really isn't a zone either. its a weird hybrid, but its true it was absolutely terrible at preventing offensive rebounds.

 

[cincyguy13]

I haven't said that Diarra is better overall - just that he has far more potential. But Diarra is clearly better defensively and at rebounding. I think they should be used situationally. If Vogt is playing well on offense or dominates the other team with his size, then he should play.

But if Vogt is getting abused on defense (like he was against Xavier), then Diarra should play.

No Diarra is not clearly better at anything.

 

[TheLivingLegend]

The Vogt hate from sky blade is getting weirder. Saying brooks was better, I at least get that, but saying Diarra is better is like saying kelvin Gaines was better than Gary clark.

Vogt is better than Brooks. Vogt is light years better than Mamadou.

 

[cincrulz11]

I'm not the only one who sees that Vogt is a bad defensive player and very bad at help defense. Heck even Brannen acknowledged it it the press conference. In the post game press conference, in reference to Jones he said "in the second half, he kicked our tail".

Vogt is the worst starting center on the defensive end that UC has had in as far back as I can recall. I understand that people want offense too, but the center position impacts the game more than any other on the defensive end and rebounding.

It's very hard to be a very good defense when your starting center is not a good defender. We managed it a few years ago with Kyle Washington, but Washington was better defensively than Vogt, was taken out when he didn't matchup well with the other team and had Gary Clark next to him.

Vogt has been THE BEST PLAYER on the entire team all season long. All the stats point to it. All these stats you want to throw up, why not the ones that show Vogt has been our best player.


It's undeniable. Yet you keep going. After been proven wrong all season long, you're still going.



And not only do you want to replace him, you want to do it with somebody who has been one of our very worst players and brought negative overall value.



Mind bottling. You know when things are so crazy you get your thoughts all trapped like in a bottle.

 

[justinhub2003]

Vogt is better than Brooks. Vogt is light years better than Mamadou.

Vogt is better on offense. But he is not even close to being the the rim protector and help defender that brooks was for us.

Vogt was -21 in a game where we only lost by 7, he killed us out there defensively


Brooks on the other hand, had an insane on/off court numbers last year. When he left the game, our defense was no where near as good.

 

[justinhub2003]

I like Vogt much more than I ever thought i would.

That said, if you had to pick right now, you go for Nysier Brooks over Vogt. You have to.

The reason why is that Vogt is "excellent" on offensve but "Poor" on defense

Brooks was "Very Good" on offense and "Excellent" on defense


When Vogt is guard his man, they score a whopping 1.043 points per possession against him, which is worst that 87% of the nation

When Brooks guards him man, they score a paltry 0.72 ppp, which was better than 86% of the nation


When Vogt has the ball on offense he scores at an amazing 1.16 ppp, better than 95% of D1

When Brooks has the ball on offense he scores 0.98 which is better than 77% of D1



Vogt is +0.12
Brooks is +0.26

 

[cincrulz11]

Vogt is better on offense. But he is not even close to being the the rim protector and help defender that brooks was for us.

Vogt was -21 in a game where we only lost by 7, he killed us out there defensively


Brooks on the other hand, had an insane on/off court numbers last year. When he left the game, our defense was no where near as good.

leading into this game Vogt's was really good.


And a lot of those points weren't from Vogt's defense. Jones had some buckets early in the 2nd, but most of the damage was done when Marshall went on that unstoppable run. Vogt happened to be on the court for that, but he wasn't the reason the points were scored.



Then when we went full court and got some buckets towards the end, Vogt wasn't in there. Thats gonna mess with a 1 game +/-.



We were great when Jaevin was on the floor vs X but he's probably our worst defender. He just didn't happen to be on the court when Marshall was hitting all his shots.



Also if you want to look at the season for possession on the court stuff, it says McNeal is our 2nd best player this year.

 

[cincrulz11]

I like Vogt much more than I ever thought i would.

That said, if you had to pick right now, you go for Nysier Brooks over Vogt. You have to.

Cut down the whole thing just so its not a long quote. Vogt has been killed when he gets pulled away from the hoop. His man has hit plenty of 3's on him. he doesn't have the athleticism to guard like that.


He'd probably be better in system where he could just stand under the rim because he does a good job with his body and making guys shoot over him. but 10 feet+ and its not good.

 

[cincrulz11]

Vogt is better on offense. But he is not even close to being the the rim protector and help defender that brooks was for us.

Vogt was -21 in a game where we only lost by 7, he killed us out there defensively


Brooks on the other hand, had an insane on/off court numbers last year. When he left the game, our defense was no where near as good.

and as i stated before, it wasn't just Vogt.


Jarron Cumberland vs Xavier

On the floor (55 possessions)
0.86 pts per poss. scored
1.15 ppp allowed

Off the floor (20 possessions)
0.94 ppp scored
0.55 ppp allowed



If you were on the court when Marshall was going off, your stats are gonna be awful.

 

[justinhub2003]

Cut down the whole thing just so its not a long quote. Vogt has been killed when he gets pulled away from the hoop. His man has hit plenty of 3's on him. he doesn't have the athleticism to guard like that.


He'd probably be better in system where he could just stand under the rim because he does a good job with his body and making guys shoot over him. but 10 feet+ and its not good.

Yea


They just need to scheme around his defensive issues. I had a perfect vantage point at the game, where X would purposely get Vogt up at the top of the key and then we'd just get beat off the dribble for the most uncontested layups I've ever seen in my life (Mick and Huggins both had good rim protectors)


Thats where the Defense is so bad.

If you have a great mobile shot blocker, it can hide your wings getting beat off the bounce

Mick always wanted his gaurds funneling their man into the shot blockers in the paint.


But when you have guys who can't guard anyone on the perimeter, coupled with a slow footed big, its receipe for defensive disaster

 

[skyblade]

I like Vogt much more than I ever thought i would.

That said, if you had to pick right now, you go for Nysier Brooks over Vogt. You have to.

The reason why is that Vogt is "excellent" on offensve but "Poor" on defense

Brooks was "Very Good" on offense and "Excellent" on defense


When Vogt is guard his man, they score a whopping 1.043 points per possession against him, which is worst that 87% of the nation

When Brooks guards him man, they score a paltry 0.72 ppp, which was better than 86% of the nation


When Vogt has the ball on offense he scores at an amazing 1.16 ppp, better than 95% of D1

When Brooks has the ball on offense he scores 0.98 which is better than 77% of D1



Vogt is +0.12
Brooks is +0.26

Can you give the same numbers for Diarra this season? Or is his sample size too small? I'm guessing he's either very good or excellent on defense and poor on offense. Also do you have Diarra's +/- for Xavier (I'm guessing he was +6, but I don't have the stat).

Vogt has played better than I expected and fouled less than I expected. I don't hate him. But he is no more a complete player than Nsoseme was last year, or Diarra is this year.

I'd love to have a complete center (Brooks) who can perform at a high level on both ends of the court. But what we have this year is center who is excellent on offense and bad on defense and another who is excellent at defense, but bad at offense.

They should be used situationally depending on matchups (or we should go small). If Vogt isn't getting beat on defense let him play. But you can't keep a center on the court who is as big of a liability on defense as Vogt is - when the other team is able to take advantage of the mismatch - and expect to beat good teams.