Xavier

[sedziobs]

he's Nate Lubick on offense.

I love a good obscure reference. Well done sir.

 

[cincrulz11]

My view in the 2nd half was perfect view Of the abuse.

They didn’t abuse him directly. They just abused his lack of foot speed. They’d set a high ball screen which would bring Vogt out of the paint, then immediately attack,

He just can’t move quick enough. If you get him 3 feet from the paint, you can just kinda waltz your way to the rim because he can’t get there In time.

So I just watched the entire 2nd half again watching for this specifically. Either you're being disingenuous saying this or you didn't actually go through play by play to make sure what you were saying was correct.


Xavier was setting high pnr's the 2nd half of the 2nd half. There was not a single occurrence of what you are claiming. Not one.


Multiple times xavier denied the screen and beat the on ball defender away from the side Vogt was on. One time Scruggs denied the screen and Vogt was behind Williams when Scruggs beat Williams off the bounce, but Vogt clearly wasn't supposed to follow Scruggs as he turned away to guard his man (turning his back on scruggs) while Cumberland was supposed to fill the lane under the rim.


I guess you can post videos or time stamps of what you're talking about. But you're really gonna have to stretch plays to make them fit, cause it just didn't happen.

 

[waterhead]

So I just watched the entire 2nd half again watching for this specifically. Either you're being disingenuous saying this or you didn't actually go through play by play to make sure what you were saying was correct.


Xavier was setting high pnr's the 2nd half of the 2nd half. There was not a single occurrence of what you are claiming. Not one.


Multiple times xavier denied the screen and beat the on ball defender away from the side Vogt was on. One time Scruggs denied the screen and Vogt was behind Williams when Scruggs beat Williams off the bounce, but Vogt clearly wasn't supposed to follow Scruggs as he turned away to guard his man (turning his back on scruggs) while Cumberland was supposed to fill the lane under the rim.


I guess you can post videos or time stamps of what you're talking about. But you're really gonna have to stretch plays to make them fit, cause it just didn't happen.

I haven’t gone back over the tape but my feeling was he played solid D in the paint. It seemed jones had to work hard for his points and he is a beast. There were also some short mid range shots that fell for them but that’s not a major focus on D to stop.

Naji has his way and looked like the best player on the floor. He abused us

 

[cincrulz11]

I haven’t gone back over the tape but my feeling was he played solid D in the paint. It seemed jones had to work hard for his points and he is a beast. There were also some short mid range shots that fell for them but that’s not a major focus on D to stop.

Naji has his way and looked like the best player on the floor. He abused us

jones got him on his first 2 shots of the 2nd half. but also vogt went down and scored on his first 2 shots too at the start of the 2nd half.


Then they tried to go to jones after that, vogt stopped the initial move and then we doubled late and they passed out.


jones was able to make a nice bounce pass for an easy 2 when we doubled and keith for some reason let naji i believe it was walk right in front of him for an uncontested layup.



the interesting thing was when we were playing pick and roll defense with vogt, vogt wasn't being asked to slide back down when they denied the screen, he was tasked with sticking with his man on the perimeter. our design is to have one of the wings collapse on the driver.



our guards must do a better job of feeding the ball handler into the hedge, we can't get crossed over and give a free drive to the rim.

 

[cincyalum2014]

So I just watched the entire 2nd half again watching for this specifically. Either you're being disingenuous saying this or you didn't actually go through play by play to make sure what you were saying was correct.


Xavier was setting high pnr's the 2nd half of the 2nd half. There was not a single occurrence of what you are claiming. Not one.


Multiple times xavier denied the screen and beat the on ball defender away from the side Vogt was on. One time Scruggs denied the screen and Vogt was behind Williams when Scruggs beat Williams off the bounce, but Vogt clearly wasn't supposed to follow Scruggs as he turned away to guard his man (turning his back on scruggs) while Cumberland was supposed to fill the lane under the rim.


I guess you can post videos or time stamps of what you're talking about. But you're really gonna have to stretch plays to make them fit, cause it just didn't happen.

So I was up last night for 3 hours with a crying newborn baby so I decided to watch the game again just because and a couple things.

-Chris Vogt is 100% not the problem , he did get bullied a little bit by Jones to start the 2nd half ... but these so called metrics don’t take into consideration just flat out good basketball plays.. Jones made 3 post shots that were heavily contested by Vogt, Jones just made the shot because he is a good ball player.

-I understand the Diarra hype train by these guys a little better looking back on it., he does play pretty solid defense, rebounds like I said before a lot of those fall right to him, he wasn’t really banging down low to get them, he has some decent touch on his shot when he does shoot, he is a good defender but is still an absolute liability out there, he did bang for one rebound off a free throw and made a great play but then threw the ball to a xavier guy on a terrible pass.

- Jarron looked terrible.... like miserably awful.... if you are hurt don’t play.. flat out... give Jaevin your minutes, jaevin couldn’t get hot but he hustles.. Jarron got owned by Marshall

- Naji Marshall flat out made us his bitch.. tough pill to swallow but that dude owned us... simple as that, he was feeling it, the crowd was getting hyped off it, he was feeding off them... it was the perfect storm and we were in the way... he is a great basketball player.

Xaviers best player balled out, engaged with his teammates , was constantly going over to Steele to discuss what to do next

Our best player took stupid shots, played lazy defense, rolled his eyes at JB, played the way Jarron wanted too, not to engaged with the team... it’s honestly just a shame, sit out until you are healthy

 

[justinhub2003]

So I just watched the entire 2nd half again watching for this specifically. Either you're being disingenuous saying this or you didn't actually go through play by play to make sure what you were saying was correct.


Xavier was setting high pnr's the 2nd half of the 2nd half. There was not a single occurrence of what you are claiming. Not one.


Multiple times xavier denied the screen and beat the on ball defender away from the side Vogt was on. One time Scruggs denied the screen and Vogt was behind Williams when Scruggs beat Williams off the bounce, but Vogt clearly wasn't supposed to follow Scruggs as he turned away to guard his man (turning his back on scruggs) while Cumberland was supposed to fill the lane under the rim.


I guess you can post videos or time stamps of what you're talking about. But you're really gonna have to stretch plays to make them fit, cause it just didn't happen.

Ok.

Go check out where Chris Vogt was when Goodin threw down a viscous dunk.

Top of the key doing god knows what with jones

 

[sedziobs]

Go check out where Chris Vogt was when Goodin threw down a viscous dunk.

Top of the key doing god knows what with jones

Well, if Vogt wasn't trying to get to the rim, then the problem wasn't his foot speed.

 

[justinhub2003]

Listen.

If you think Chris Vogt has good foot speed, quickness and is a great help defender, then I’m not sure we’re watching the same guy.

Overwhelming evidence shows he can defend 1 on 1 in the post because of his length. But that’s where Is defensive greatness ends.

I honestly think their is some ego at play here. Everyone on this board knows Vogt isn’t a good defender outside the arc under the rim.

I’ve not once bashed him. Just posted his defensive issue. The numbers support that.

I’m not saying Diarra should start over him.

Just that our defense sucks by Bearcats standard.

 

[cincyguy13]

So I was up last night for 3 hours with a crying newborn baby so I decided to watch the game again just because and a couple things.

-Chris Vogt is 100% not the problem , he did get bullied a little bit by Jones to start the 2nd half ... but these so called metrics don’t take into consideration just flat out good basketball plays.. Jones made 3 post shots that were heavily contested by Vogt, Jones just made the shot because he is a good ball player.

-I understand the Diarra hype train by these guys a little better looking back on it., he does play pretty solid defense, rebounds like I said before a lot of those fall right to him, he wasn’t really banging down low to get them, he has some decent touch on his shot when he does shoot, he is a good defender but is still an absolute liability out there, he did bang for one rebound off a free throw and made a great play but then threw the ball to a xavier guy on a terrible pass.

- Jarron looked terrible.... like miserably awful.... if you are hurt don’t play.. flat out... give Jaevin your minutes, jaevin couldn’t get hot but he hustles.. Jarron got owned by Marshall

- Naji Marshall flat out made us his bitch.. tough pill to swallow but that dude owned us... simple as that, he was feeling it, the crowd was getting hyped off it, he was feeding off them... it was the perfect storm and we were in the way... he is a great basketball player.

Xaviers best player balled out, engaged with his teammates , was constantly going over to Steele to discuss what to do next

Our best player took stupid shots, played lazy defense, rolled his eyes at JB, played the way Jarron wanted too, not to engaged with the team... it’s honestly just a shame, sit out until you are healthy

Jarron has always played when he wanted to. That’s always been his biggest issue. Mick even said that A number of times. Jarron could be Steve Logan status but he doesn’t look interested every game. And not just this year. He goes from being on a mission in the Houston game last year, to unmotivated in the Iowa game. It’s weird but that’s always who he has been.

 

[sedziobs]

If you think Chris Vogt has good foot speed, quickness and is a great help defender, then I’m not sure we’re watching the same guy.

If you think people here are saying Vogt has good foot speed and quickness, then I'm not sure we're reading the same thread.

 

[cincrulz11]

Ok.

Go check out where Chris Vogt was when Goodin threw down a viscous dunk.

Top of the key doing god knows what with jones

the one Vogt went to hedge for the screen and Goodin crossed MAW right?



so you think our center is supposed to come out to the 3 point line to hedge against a pnr, and when the guard gets crossed over he's then supposed to get all the way back to the lane to block a guard going full speed?


the funny thing is i knew you were going to say that play, and its hilarious thats an example of vogt being an awful defender..

 

[justinhub2003]

the one Vogt went to hedge for the screen and Goodin crossed MAW right?



so you think our center is supposed to come out to the 3 point line to hedge against a pnr, and when the guard gets crossed over he's then supposed to get all the way back to the lane to block a guard going full speed?


the funny thing is i knew you were going to say that play, and its hilarious thats an example of vogt being an awful defender..

No. I’m saying Vogt should never ever ever leave the paint.

When he does bad things will happen.


My point is his slow footed defense should never be put in situation where he is taken out of position.

Like why are you following tyrique Jones our near the 3 point line?


But if the hill you wanna die on is that Chris Vogt is a good defender, then be my guest. Everyone knows he’s not . He’s good at being 7 ft but when we need a little more then that, we can’t get it.


No blame on him. Just the staff needs to 1 man zone him. I mean what’s the harm in tyrique Jones being at the top of the key

 

[justinhub2003]

But I also haven’t watched the film yet.

I don’t want to watch either. They kicked our ass in the 2nd half.


If I get the balls to do it later, I’ll make a few clips out of it

 

[cincrulz11]

No. I’m saying Vogt should never ever ever leave the paint.

When he does bad things will happen.


My point is his slow footed defense should never be put in situation where he is taken out of position.

Like why are you following tyrique Jones our near the 3 point line?


But if the hill you wanna die on is that Chris Vogt is a good defender, then be my guest. Everyone knows he’s not . He’s good at being 7 ft but when we need a little more then that, we can’t get it.


No blame on him. Just the staff needs to 1 man zone him. I mean what’s the harm in tyrique Jones being at the top of the key

all i stated was that teams aren't abusing his defense. if you want to say they're abusing our guards inability to stay in front of their man, then you can say that, but thats not really Vogt's fault.


If you want to let Marshall have his defender picked so he gets free 3's or 14 footers then I guess thats a strat we could have. Wouldn't be the worst letting Marshall have open 3's but Im not sure putting him at the top of the key without a defender is something that would work out well? Do teams typically try that on pnr?



If Vogt was out there letting them get past him on his hedge, then that is 100% on Vogt and would be terrible. But when you watch the times our guard actually pushing their ball handler towards the hedge, Vogt played it well and xavier passed out. We were abused against the pnr when our guards got crossed over repeatedly when xavier denied the screen.



If what happened vs x happened in a mick cronin defense, mick cronin would be furious with the defense from the guard.



i have said repeatedly here that Vogt struggles when pulled away from the basket. When he has to help and then his man leaks out he struggles a great deal with recovering. But 7 footers that don't struggle with that are rare, and ones that can do that and score like Vogt can are almost nonexistent and they play in the NBA once they are old enough to.

 

[cincrulz11]

But I also haven’t watched the film yet.

I don’t want to watch either. They kicked our ass in the 2nd half.


If I get the balls to do it later, I’ll make a few clips out of it

Please do, and note the 8:05 Goodin dunk and the 6:15 Marshall drive at who actually made the mistake on defense and what our defensive design is.

 

[waterhead]

If you think people here are saying Vogt has good foot speed and quickness, then I'm not sure we're reading the same thread.

It's just a weak straw man argument to pretend others are saying something they are not. Vogt was not brought here to be a lock down perimeter defender. Everyone knows he is not Justin Jackson or even Diara in athletic ability.

That does not mean he's not the better option for the team overall. Brannen seems to think Vogt gives him more of what he needs and Diara is not even 2nd in line when Sorolla is back.

I hope Diara figures it ALL out for our sake. There is upside with him but if mental aspects of the game are holding him back...he may never reach his upside. The downside is also pretty clear. Low floor...fairly high ceiling. Vogt is high floor low ceiling. Vogt is already doing MOST of what he can do. He's not going to become a shooter or athletic.

 

[JoeRunner89]

Can I ask a question why in the hell, is anybody going back and watching tape on this team?... At this point we could only hope to be on the bubble. The season is over... Better start making plans for next yr. Let's talk about next yr and what we're gonna need to do in order to avoid a 3 yr tournament drought possibly 4. What is there to talk about right now besides how bad we are. N besides Coaching or recruiting possibilities we might as well start looking right now. I hope they are looking now. Keith Williams is on the rise by the way tho. He and a healthy Cumberland and a full supporting cast might of had a chance to make a run this yr bc I'm not seeing any dominate team to be scared of

 

[Robert]

Can I ask a question why in the hell, is anybody going back and watching tape on this team?... At this point we could only hope to be on the bubble. The season is over... Better start making plans for next yr. Let's talk about next yr and what we're gonna need to do in order to avoid a 3 yr tournament drought possibly 4. What is there to talk about right now besides how bad we are. N besides Coaching or recruiting possibilities we might as well start looking right now. I hope they are looking now. Keith Williams is on the rise by the way tho. He and a healthy Cumberland and a full supporting cast might of had a chance to make a run this yr bc I'm not seeing any dominate team to be scared of

Give me a f'n break... we're 10 games in and the season is over?

 

[justinhub2003]

Please do, and note the 8:05 Goodin dunk and the 6:15 Marshall drive at who actually made the mistake on defense and what our defensive design is.

You’re missing my entire point.

We know two things: our guards can’t guard

And our big is only good at guarding around the rim.

So why we we letting a non shooting threat like tyrique jones bring our 7 footer out to where he is least affecting especially when we already know his defiencies on defense.


I just want to be clear of what your trying to say... you’re saying Chris Vogt is a great defender ? And that we utilized him perfectly ?

 

[TheRealMick]

Remember i pumped my brakes after realizing Brannen didnt have a relationship with Curtis. Wouldve thought nku was competing with uc in recruiting the way Mick was bashed and Brannen was praised.