Xavier

[skyblade]

We are going to have to work with Vogt given the fact that Brannen seems to play Diara only out of necessity (even with Sorolla out).

Diara's mobility and skills should fit in very nice...so once again...there is more than meets the eye with Diara and the eye isn't saying nice things either.

I am sure he would be a better option on D but I can't really say if he is missing assignments to help etc. If we can keep Vogt in the paint he is very efficient on offense. Brannen wants quick decisions to be made and from what I can tell Diara isn't the best at making those.

It depends on the eye. I've said for quite a while that Diarra should be getting more minutes. I didn't have the stats, but the stats Justin posted line up quite well with what my eye test has said.

In my mind, Diarra and Vogt are just about equally skilled players. It could just be that Brannen values offense from his bigs and doesn't care about the defense (or he blames the guards and doesn't think Vogt should ever need to help). In that case, Diarra's best bet is to transfer out.

 

[skyblade]

looks very clear. very good defending on the block on post ups. very poor on spot ups.


when he guards his man 1 on 1 in the post he's very good. when he helps off penetration and then is forced to rotate out to the 3 point line he struggles tremendously. I don't believe our bigs were asked to do that in the past because we didn't play stricly man defense.


Break down is pretty simple. Vogt's man has attempted 17 3's and made 10 of them at 1.765 points per possession.


That is clearly a problem, but we're talking about less than 2 shot attempts per game and guys are hitting at a rather insane rate for a center even if they are wide open.


I like to see .6 ppp on post ups. Those 3's put everything way out of whack and I'd expect those numbers to go way down just based off average college 3 point shooting.

Our bigs frequently rotated out to the 3 point line in the past. Far more then they do this year. In the past we switched everything. Cronin's defense demanded athletic bigs to function. Vogt would likely not even get on the floor for a Cronin team.

Kyle Washington moved significantly better than Vogt does. But Washington struggled tremendously in Cronin's defense.

I do expect the percentage to come down against Vogt. Just because of law of averages, they aren't difficult shots. Vogt either has to let guys shoot an open jumper or press them and let them drive by him. The open jumper is the better of two bad options, so he will continue to let them shoot it.

We are also going to be facing a lot more good teams coming up. I expect them to do their best to draw Vogt out of the paint and exploit his inability to guard jumpers and play help defense. I'd be using Vogt's man to set a lot of screens if I'm the opposing team.

 

[skyblade]

or he can start playing better basketball when he gets a chance?

Diarra played excellent in the first half against Xavier. We went on a run with him in the game, largely because of his play. He was +6 or +8 in the first half. Then he barely got in the game again.

 

[cincrulz11]

I’ll look when I’m home later.

Keep in mind, Brooks was the guy guarding the 40 year old bald white guy on Wichita state and did it pretty damn awesome. He contested and he missed the game winner. Uc won.

yeah he was more capable of that than vogt for sure.

 

[cincrulz11]

Our bigs frequently rotated out to the 3 point line in the past. Far more then they do this year. In the past we switched everything. Cronin's defense demanded athletic bigs to function. Vogt would likely not even get on the floor for a Cronin team.

Kyle Washington moved significantly better than Vogt does. But Washington struggled tremendously in Cronin's defense.

I do expect the percentage to come down against Vogt. Just because of law of averages, they aren't difficult shots. Vogt either has to let guys shoot an open jumper or press them and let them drive by him. The open jumper is the better of two bad options, so he will continue to let them shoot it.

We are also going to be facing a lot more good teams coming up. I expect them to do their best to draw Vogt out of the paint and exploit his inability to guard jumpers and play help defense. I'd be using Vogt's man to set a lot of screens if I'm the opposing team.

we did it in different ways though. we switched all screen with cronin and thats how you could get a brooks defending a guard.


thats why im intrigued as to how many 3's opponents were taking vs bigs using that system.



also the stats showed vogt can't guard 3's, but how many centers do we play that typically have 3 point shooters? we've played vs some, but im not so sure the aac has those guys. it didn't show him struggling against midrange simply because i think there had only been 1 midrange shot taken against him.

 

[Gocats]

Trevor to Transfer

Not a surprise

 

[skyblade]

we did it in different ways though. we switched all screen with cronin and thats how you could get a brooks defending a guard.


thats why im intrigued as to how many 3's opponents were taking vs bigs using that system.



also the stats showed vogt can't guard 3's, but how many centers do we play that typically have 3 point shooters? we've played vs some, but im not so sure the aac has those guys. it didn't show him struggling against midrange simply because i think there had only been 1 midrange shot taken against him.

I'm a little curious about that. I recall BGSU especially hitting quite a few of what I considered to be "midrange" jumpers when Vogt was guarding them. Freemason hit a couple for Xavier as well.

I'm not sure if Synergy didn't consider them to be Vogt's man for one reason or another. Or if they were close enough to the basket that they got counted as a post-up. I suspect the former, which makes me wonder if Vogt's defensive ppp should be even worse than it is.

 

[skyblade]

we did it in different ways though. we switched all screen with cronin and thats how you could get a brooks defending a guard.


thats why im intrigued as to how many 3's opponents were taking vs bigs using that system.



also the stats showed vogt can't guard 3's, but how many centers do we play that typically have 3 point shooters? we've played vs some, but im not so sure the aac has those guys. it didn't show him struggling against midrange simply because i think there had only been 1 midrange shot taken against him.

I don't think a lot of the threes hit against Vogt were by the opposing center. I suppose we could get Justin to watch the videos and tell us.

My guess is that the threes against Vogt are when Vogt's man sets a screen on our guard. Vogt hedges the screen and is left guarding the smaller guy briefly until our guard recovers. I'm guessing that brief period counts as Vogt "guarding" the smaller guy and Vogt leaves a big enough gap that the guy can basically take an open three.

Looking more at the breakdown, it's looks like spot ups and no dribble jumpers are where Vogt has given up high ppp's. I'm curious how accurate synergy is at assigning who is guarding whom. Or maybe my memory is just bad. I would have said that jumpers were a major weakness for Vogt, but I recall more mid-range jumpers and 3's off of the pick and roll than Synergy list.

 

[cincyguy13]

Diarra played excellent in the first half against Xavier. We went on a run with him in the game, largely because of his play. He was +6 or +8 in the first half. Then he barely got in the game again.

Honest question, why do you think brannen wouldn’t play Diarra if he is as good as you think? You think he wants to lose games? Why didn’t cronin play him. You have 2 college coaches and 95% of people that watch him play telling you he isn’t good enough. Maybe you are right and everyone else is wrong. I just don’t know what everyone would be missing that you are seeing.

 

[TheLongHaul]

The Vogt hate from sky blade is getting weirder. Saying brooks was better, I at least get that, but saying Diarra is better is like saying kelvin Gaines was better than Gary clark.

this is a great take. Frankly it's a litte bizarre even from someone that is so biased against this staff, and is pretty much so ridiculous that it's not worth arguing. No one in their right mind thinks Diarra is better. Vogt is most likely the MVP of the team so far this year.

I hope Diarra puts it together. Seems like a good dude and does have potential. But potential only gets you so far.

 

[skyblade]

Honest question, why do you think brannen wouldn’t play Diarra if he is as good as you think? You think he wants to lose games? Why didn’t cronin play him. You have 2 college coaches and 95% of people that watch him play telling you he isn’t good enough. Maybe you are right and everyone else is wrong. I just don’t know what everyone would be missing that you are seeing.

Well Cronin did give him the primary backup spot over Nsoseme around the midway into conference play. Cronin didn't play him much because Brooks was just as good on the defensive end, just as good at rebounding and significantly better on offense. Brooks is/was clearly superior to Diarra, he is/was also clearly superior to Vogt.

But we're not comparing Diarra to Brooks, we are comparing him to Vogt. If Cronin was coaching and it was a choice between Vogt and Diarra, I have no doubt that Diarra would be getting the majority of minutes. In fact, I'm not sure Cronin would ever even put Vogt in the game.

I'm not entirely sure of Brannen's reasoning. He seems to be overly committed to keeping his main six guys in the game. I'd venture a couple of guesses though.

1. Brannen cares more about offense than he does about defense/rebounding. For Cronin, backups earned minutes by playing hard, defending and rebounding. For Brannen, it seems subs earn minutes by running the offense how he wants it run. Diarra does the former, but not the latter.

2. Brannen thinks the problem defensively isn't Vogt. Basically thinking that the guards just shouldn't get driven on and thus a rim protecting center isn't essential. If that is the case, Brannen is hardheadedly refusing to see reality. In a perfect world, everyone would play perfect man-to-man D, but in the real world a mobile rim protecting center makes a huge difference defensively.

As for the fans. I think many fans focus on the offensive end, especially a large number who hated how much Mick focused on defense. Fans loved Kyle Washington and I was not a big fan of his either. It's easy to see how good Vogt is on offense when he's making good moves to put the ball in the basket. It takes more attention to see how Diarra positively effects the defense in a lot of small ways that don't show up on the stat sheet. Or to see Vogt negatively effecting the defense in ways that don't show up on the stat sheet.

 

[skyblade]

Honest question, why do you think brannen wouldn’t play Diarra if he is as good as you think? You think he wants to lose games? Why didn’t cronin play him. You have 2 college coaches and 95% of people that watch him play telling you he isn’t good enough. Maybe you are right and everyone else is wrong. I just don’t know what everyone would be missing that you are seeing.

As a side note, I don't think it's so much Diarra being "as good as I think he is" and more Vogt being "as bad as I think he is".

I don't think Vogt or Diarra are good enough to be starting centers in the American. Neither is a complete player, both are bad on one end of the court. Others see Vogt as the teams MVP or comparable to Brooks. I see Diarra and Vogt being situational subs for 10-15 minutes per game, in a perfect world. But we don't have a high-quality starting center.

I think we can all agree that Diarra has a huge hole in his game. But where we disagree is that Vogt also has a huge hole in his game. I consider Vogt to be bad to terrible on defense and same for Diarra on offense. But I think Diarra can improve, whereas Vogt is what he is.

 

[TheLivingLegend]

Why couldn't Vogt improve defensively...

 

[cincrulz11]

Why couldn't Vogt improve defensively...

same reason he couldn't improve his horrible foul rate. he's a brannen recruit.

 

[TheLongHaul]

Basically Skyblade is advocating replacing a guy that is averaging 12.6 pts, 7 rebs, 1.6 blocks, shooting 67% from the field with a guy who in three years has never scored 10 points in a single game and has only once gotten more rebounds in a game than what Vogt averages per game ....makes sense.

I don't mean to hate on Diarra, but he should be a spot sub at best.

 

[waterhead]

It depends on the eye. I've said for quite a while that Diarra should be getting more minutes. I didn't have the stats, but the stats Justin posted line up quite well with what my eye test has said.

In my mind, Diarra and Vogt are just about equally skilled players. It could just be that Brannen values offense from his bigs and doesn't care about the defense (or he blames the guards and doesn't think Vogt should ever need to help). In that case, Diarra's best bet is to transfer out.

I really think you are over simplifying the issue. There is much more to it than just being better at individual offense or defense. Everyone has assignment on both sides of the ball and need to carry them out for the good of the team. They also can’t be turnover machines etc. I don’t think it’s a big secret that Diara has been slow to catch on in either system. You don’t get to learn that stuff in games...you have to demonstrate it in practice first.

I think it’s very reckless of fans to advocate he leave the program because the coach doesn’t value defense over offense. Give me a break. They spend 70 percent of their time on defense.

Again Brannen knows what he wants and needs each player to do and as long as they do them and do them well they can play

 

[cincyguy13]

As a fan, I would rather Diarra be better. He’s been in the program for 3 years, he’s likable and easy to root for. Vogt just came to the program. He’s also likable but I would much rather Diarra be better. The fact is he isn’t. Throw in all the stats you want, he just isn’t good, offensively or defensively. If you watch the games, it’s not hard to see that. He doesn’t know how to play basketball. He doesn’t have the feel for the game. The idea of him is great but the reality is not.

 

[waterhead]

I really think you are over simplifying the issue. There is much more to it than just being better at individual offense or defense. Everyone has assignment on both sides of the ball and need to carry them out for the good of the team. They also can’t be turnover machines etc. I don’t think it’s a big secret that Diara has been slow to catch on in either system. You don’t get to learn that stuff in games...you have to demonstrate it in practice first.

I think it’s very reckless of fans to advocate he leave the program because the coach doesn’t value defense over offense. Give me a break. They spend 70 percent of their time on defense.

Again Brannen knows what he wants and needs each player to do and as long as they do them and do them well they can play

Just to take this a s step further. On offense let's just take the pick and roll. Does Diara know how, when and why to set the pick? Can he set the right pick and be in the right position? Is the pick in the right spot? Does he know how and when to roll? Is any of the timing off? Is he making the right decisions?

On blocks and rebounds is he running around like a chicken with his head cut off or is there a method he is following? Is he trying to block too many shots he can't reach leaving the offensive rebound out there? When rebounding is he boxing out his man first so the team has the best chance to get the rebound or he is just a loose cannon out there?

I think we can all admit Diara is a more mobile defender and that works well for those situations but who is better for the team overall? I think CJB has made that very apparent and that Diara is not even the 2nd option.

 

[waterhead]

As a fan, I would rather Diarra be better. He’s been in the program for 3 years, he’s likable and easy to root for. Vogt just came to the program. He’s also likable but I would much rather Diarra be better. The fact is he isn’t. Throw in all the stats you want, he just isn’t good, offensively or defensively. If you watch the games, it’s not hard to see that. He doesn’t know how to play basketball. He doesn’t have the feel for the game. The idea of him is great but the reality is not.

My guess is a lot of what keeps him off the floor is apparent to the coach in practice as well. Some fans are saying he needs more minutes to get it figured out. If you can't do it in practice the chances you are going to figure it out in live high pressure games is not good at all.

Often times I agree with getting guys more minutes...assuming they have already displayed in practice the ability to do what is being asked. I don't have any idea what is going on with guys like Diara and Harvey but it's not rocket science either. They probably make too many mistakes for Brannen's comfort whether it's strategic mistakes or physical ones...

 

[cincyguy13]

Well Cronin did give him the primary backup spot over Nsoseme around the midway into conference play. Cronin didn't play him much because Brooks was just as good on the defensive end, just as good at rebounding and significantly better on offense. Brooks is/was clearly superior to Diarra, he is/was also clearly superior to Vogt.

But we're not comparing Diarra to Brooks, we are comparing him to Vogt. If Cronin was coaching and it was a choice between Vogt and Diarra, I have no doubt that Diarra would be getting the majority of minutes. In fact, I'm not sure Cronin would ever even put Vogt in the game.

I'm not entirely sure of Brannen's reasoning. He seems to be overly committed to keeping his main six guys in the game. I'd venture a couple of guesses though.

1. Brannen cares more about offense than he does about defense/rebounding. For Cronin, backups earned minutes by playing hard, defending and rebounding. For Brannen, it seems subs earn minutes by running the offense how he wants it run. Diarra does the former, but not the latter.

2. Brannen thinks the problem defensively isn't Vogt. Basically thinking that the guards just shouldn't get driven on and thus a rim protecting center isn't essential. If that is the case, Brannen is hardheadedly refusing to see reality. In a perfect world, everyone would play perfect man-to-man D, but in the real world a mobile rim protecting center makes a huge difference defensively.

As for the fans. I think many fans focus on the offensive end, especially a large number who hated how much Mick focused on defense. Fans loved Kyle Washington and I was not a big fan of his either. It's easy to see how good Vogt is on offense when he's making good moves to put the ball in the basket. It takes more attention to see how Diarra positively effects the defense in a lot of small ways that don't show up on the stat sheet. Or to see Vogt negatively effecting the defense in ways that don't show up on the stat sheet.

I seriously doubt brannen would risk losing games so he could play his guy. He knows he needs wins now. If Diarra was close to as good as Vogt, he’d play him. These coaches want to win more than anything. If Diarra gave the team anything, he’d play him. He isn’t going to risk missing the tourney for Chris Vogt. I know that for sure.